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Post by gcannon on May 2, 2014 17:08:06 GMT -5
I have a 14 year old system I am looking to upgrade with Emotiva components and need some advice and suggestions. My current system includes the following:
1 Bryston 6B ST and 2 Bryston 4B ST
2 B&W Nautilus 802 fronts, N HTM1 center; 2 N SCM1 sides and 2 N 805 rears
Lexicon MC-1 Processor
Sony DVP-NS999ES SACD player
Large room - 20 x 25 with 12 ft ceiling
My primary use is audio.
My plan is as follows:
1. Sell all the Bryston amps and replace with 2 XPR-1s for the 802's and 1 XBR-5 for the rest (if I decide to stay multi-channel). The Bryston's just never was enough power in the big room.
2. Sell the MC-1 and replace with UMC-200
3. Sell the N 805's and replace with existing CDM 1NT for rears (not much sound comes out from the rears)
Now my questions:
1. I do like surround sound audio and have a few SACDs, but it's a nice to have and not a must have. Am I better off just going 2-channel if I'm only going for audio?
2. Is the UMC-200 the right processor, or would I be better going with the XSP-1 if 2 channel is the better option for pure audio?
3. Is the Sony SACD suitable as a CD/SACD transport or would that be a weak link in my new system? If so, would you recommend an Oppo 105 or Emo ERC-3?
4. I'm interested in going digital for hi-res music files at some point in the future, but not now.
5. My goal is to be able to use the funds from my sold components to pay for all the new Emo gear.
I have spent weeks reading through multiple boards and reviews to get updated on the latest equipment, but am still somewhat confused. I really appreciate all your advice and recommendations!
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Post by mshump on May 2, 2014 18:40:40 GMT -5
gcannon welcome to the forum
Your system on paper is one that many people would drool over ! With that in mind I wouldn't do a complete make over right off the bat. I would do a little at a time so you can hear and tweak it as you go for the SQ you are trying to achieve.
I would start with the XSP1 (for 2 channel) then use the HT bypass with the Lexicon for Multi channel. See if this doesn't improve your SQ then step up to the amps later if you still need them.
The Oppo is a very popular source component. I have an older one, but the new ones are really highly talked about.
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 2, 2014 21:35:50 GMT -5
I agree with mshump, you have a good system, take your time. Though, while I have an XSP-1 and think it's an excellent preamp, I would probably start with an XMC-1. I know this is putting faith in the unknown, but I believe it could be an excellent choice for multi and two channel - we should know soon. I suppose getting started with the XPRs for the 802s wouldn't hurt. I also concur that the Oppo is a great source for your digital needs. You'll get some other opinions I'm sure. Have fun and welcome to the Lounge.
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Post by ocezam on May 2, 2014 22:24:21 GMT -5
1. I do like surround sound audio and have a few SACDs, but it's a nice to have and not a must have. Am I better off just going 2-channel if I'm only going for audio? 2. Is the UMC-200 the right processor, or would I be better going with the XSP-1 if 2 channel is the better option for pure audio? 3. Is the Sony SACD suitable as a CD/SACD transport or would that be a weak link in my new system? If so, would you recommend an Oppo 105 or Emo ERC-3? 4. I'm interested in going digital for hi-res music files at some point in the future, but not now. 5. My goal is to be able to use the funds from my sold components to pay for all the new Emo gear. I have spent weeks reading through multiple boards and reviews to get updated on the latest equipment, but am still somewhat confused. I really appreciate all your advice and recommendations! My answers: 1. If you are only listening to music, yes go to stereo only. Much more accurate, clean and pure. There are others here that will agree with me and still others that will disagree. But hey, you asked. I listened to music, both multichannel and stereo, from my theater system for years by necessity. I had great speakers there then too. Magnepans, Polk LSi15s etc... I put together a stereo in another room a couple years ago and MAN! I can't stand to listen to music in my theater any more. I had forgotten what I was missing. 2. The UMC-1 is a multi-channel processor. The XSP-1 a stereo preamp. Again, YOU have to decide stereo or surround sound. 3. This was a great player in it's day. As long as it's functioning properly, it still probably is. The DAC in it may be outdated. Especially since you say you may want to get into hi-rez digital music. As long as the Sony has digital out, perhaps a new DAC like the XDA-2 or the DC-1 wold be a good idea? 4. Then you are probably ok with your sony disk player for now. 5. I guess 5. wasn't really a quastion. Peace |
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Post by jedinite24 on May 3, 2014 0:00:46 GMT -5
Hi gcannon
Welcome to the Emotiva lounge. Some things I would ask is what is really prompting you to make these changes? What do you feel is currently lacking in your system sonically that is making you want to make such sweeping changes? I don't see anything wrong with what you have. Just because gear is 14 years old to me doesn't mean it needs to be changed.
Honestly the only thing I would change in your system is the Lexicon MC-1 Processor. I'd go for an XMC-1 for multi-channel processing.
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Post by garbulky on May 3, 2014 0:03:16 GMT -5
As all have mentioned your system is great. A few things that you probably already know about. 1. Tweaking the positioning of the speakers in the room by even a few inches or degrees of toe in can make more of a difference than all the "upgrades" you are planning on doing. 2. Adding room treatments and bass traps in a large room will also help just as much. So will carpet. 3. And so will setting up your couch position and taking out stuff in the way of the speakers and you like side couches, cofee tables etc. These are the three biggest and cheapest things you could possibly do to help change your audio system. The other big thing is always getting different better speakers but at your level, I wouldn't go touching those speakers! Posting a picture of your room may help us give you some ideas on how to improve the sound of your system. If you have a diamond (electronics and speakers) and throw crude oil at it (setup not being optimized - room, positioning, treatments), you would have a somewhat muddy rock rather than a glittering jewel. And that's how I look at those suggestions I mentioned. Now you probably already know all this already, but I thought I'd mention just in case. Moving on. You mentioned multichannel is nice but not really that essential. GREAT. I tend to agree with you. There are definitely people that have fantastic multi-channel setups. I am a fan of two channel. Most of the music I listen to is two channel. Sticking with it is a good idea imo. It also allows you to spend the same amount of money for greater returns due to lessening the number of speakers and associated gear needed. So onto that. First: your SACD player is fantastic as a transport. Don't go buying other stuff to get a better transport. There are other things your money could go to. But....DAC technology has really progressed. I've found DAC's - especially when speakers and amps are already at a minimum level, and yours already easily exceed them - are important. Research DAC's and go with a good one. The DC-1 though not a perfect DAC is the best DAC I've heard. There must be better ones. But for the price, it's pretty nice. Due to its very low weight, you would lose nothing by auditioning it. Some other DAC's you may want to look at - especially if you are going wit ha dedicated pre-amp Audio gd DAC's - amazing design. You look at their stuff with multiple dac chips on board and your jaw drops. Schiit Gugnir DAC. They've been gathering some nice press. Certain forms of the Eastern Electric DAC's. If you have the money - the Lampizator DAC's have got good reviews. As you can see there is a ton! Now....some careful reading needs to be done to figure out what delivers what for the money. Sometimes expensive DAC's can be equalled by much cheaper ones. But I definitely think you should experiment with the DAC. Next: The preamplifier. I've found these do make a difference - even if the DAC has a volume control. The DC-1 has a pretty nice pre-amplifier on it. However the XSP-1 does better on quieter passages -= not by much though. The DC-1's preamp is pretty nice. The XSP-1 that I have on loan right now is a really musical pre-amplifier. It too isn't perfect, but I am a) critical and b) haven't heard better than the XSP-1  The question is how much are you willing to spend. The XSP-1's main strenght is in its sheer ability to communicate music, have a wide soundstage and keep a "coherent" soundstage. More coherent than DAC direct to amp. However, to say it is without equal is doubtful in my mind. There MUST be others. I just haven't heard them. But....pick them carefully. The XSP-1 brings a LOT to the table. Also...usually I shy away from subs but I never thought I'd say this but.....in a room that you feel is a bit on the large side.....TWIN SUBWOOFERS. GET THEM. One per channel. The two to smooth out the bass. And don't regret it. The amps can wait. Get those subs in there. They make a HUGE difference. Even one capable one makes a huge difference. But two....oh yeah now we're talking. A friend has had a lot of sucess with this www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15(get two) Note: that they are very large. No joke here. The ability of a sub to control/couple to the room (it's not about sheer volume but about smooth full range QUICK delivery) and deliver swift dynamics and smooth out bass response is something that two speakers will have a hard time doing in a large room. Even if you are hearing the low notes, it doesn't actually mean that you are getting it properly produced. If you need some advice on room treatments. Get many of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlAnd the bass traps. There is also a company called GIK acoustics who are responsive to your questions. But even one of them will do. An example of why room treatments. |
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Post by Priapulus on May 3, 2014 9:54:11 GMT -5
99% of music is stereo. If you're not interested in movies, forget the processors.
You already have excellent gear. If you have the itch to upgrade, I would build a two channel system around an XSP-1, using the rest of your excellent gear. If you find you miss the 1% of surround sound then you can always use your existing processer via the HT bypass feature of the xsp-1.
I had a Bryson 4B amplifier which provided more than enough power. I noticed no improvement in sound quality (both are perfection), upgrading to a XPA-2. I did it so the appearance would match...
That is what I've done (see sig), a Home Theatre and stereo system side-by-side, joined by HT bypass. For music I turn off the HT.
Sincerely
/b
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 10:37:09 GMT -5
gcannon welcome to the forum Your system on paper is one that many people would drool over ! With that in mind I wouldn't do a complete make over right off the bat. I would do a little at a time so you can hear and tweak it as you go for the SQ you are trying to achieve. I would start with the XSP1 (for 2 channel) then use the HT bypass with the Lexicon for Multi channel. See if this doesn't improve your SQ then step up to the amps later if you still need them. The Oppo is a very popular source component. I have an older one, but the new ones are really highly talked about. Thanks mshump for the welcome and the advice. I agree I was fortunate to be able to afford the system back 14 years ago; however, the room the system originally was setup was smaller and the sound was very good, but not great. When I moved 2 years later, I built a large theater room on the 3rd floor and the system never sounded the same. It seemed like the 802's were under powered. I used the 6BST to power the 802's and the HTM1 and it lacks detail and volume. I went to the local B&W dealer and heard the same N802's with McIntosh 500 wpc monoblocks in a 2 channel setup and they sounded awesome - 10 times better than my setup. The sales guy told me the N802's need at least 500 wpc and the 6BST was under powered, especially in the size room I have. Their room was larger than mine and it still sounded great. Since then, I have read many places that the 802's need lots of power, with 500/600 wpc they are very good and wtih 1k+ are awesome. So my goal was to upgrade the front 2 amps. Then I was in a serious car accident (5 yrs ago) and my priorities changed and now just getting back to upgrading my sound system. Great idea to use the HT bypass on the MC-1 to keep a multi channel option and then I can decide if the 2 channel option is best. I have an HT setup in my living room for movies, so this is my retreat to enjoy great music. Thanks again for the help! |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 10:41:25 GMT -5
I agree with mshump, you have a good system, take your time. Though, while I have an XSP-1 and think it's an excellent preamp, I would probably start with an XMC-1. I know this is putting faith in the unknown, but I believe it could be an excellent choice for multi and two channel - we should know soon. I suppose getting started with the XPRs for the 802s wouldn't hurt. I also concur that the Oppo is a great source for your digital needs. You'll get some other opinions I'm sure. Have fun and welcome to the Lounge. Thanks AudioHTIT. I appreciate your advice to go slow. I'm thinking by doing that I'll know exactly the incremental value of each piece to the overall system, so if there's not any/much improvement I can return it and stick with what I have. |
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Post by garbulky on May 3, 2014 10:42:01 GMT -5
gcannon welcome to the forum Your system on paper is one that many people would drool over ! With that in mind I wouldn't do a complete make over right off the bat. I would do a little at a time so you can hear and tweak it as you go for the SQ you are trying to achieve. I would start with the XSP1 (for 2 channel) then use the HT bypass with the Lexicon for Multi channel. See if this doesn't improve your SQ then step up to the amps later if you still need them. The Oppo is a very popular source component. I have an older one, but the new ones are really highly talked about. Thanks mshump for the welcome and the advice. I agree I was fortunate to be able to afford the system back 14 years ago; however, the room the system originally was setup was smaller and the sound was very good, but not great. When I moved 2 years later, I built a large theater room on the 3rd floor and the system never sounded the same. It seemed like the 802's were under powered. I used the 6BST to power the 802's and the HTM1 and it lacks detail and volume. I went to the local B&W dealer and heard the same N802's with McIntosh 500 wpc monoblocks in a 2 channel setup and they sounded awesome - 10 times better than my setup. The sales guy told me the N802's need at least 500 wpc and the 6BST was under powered, especially in the size room I have. Their room was larger than mine and it still sounded great. Since then, I have read many places that the 802's need lots of power, with 500/600 wpc they are very good and wtih 1k+ are awesome. So my goal was to upgrade the front 2 amps. Then I was in a serious car accident (5 yrs ago) and my priorities changed and now just getting back to upgrading my sound system. Great idea to use the HT bypass on the MC-1 to keep a multi channel option and then I can decide if the 2 channel option is best. I have an HT setup in my living room for movies, so this is my retreat to enjoy great music. Thanks again for the help! It also could be your pre-amp. I've found a proper stereo pre-amp gives better control in terms of dynamics to the sound. It brings about a sense of slam that I haven't quite heard outside real stereo pre-amps. Also, it could be your room. Hence my suggestions above. |
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Post by repeetavx on May 3, 2014 10:51:37 GMT -5
As a guy that uses XPA-2s in his system, I'm thrilled that Priapulus found them equal to the Bryson amp. But not only is the XPR series a different design philosophy, the difference in power is light dimming. I would upgrade the stereo mains first, and then proceed thoughtfully.
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 10:51:53 GMT -5
1. I do like surround sound audio and have a few SACDs, but it's a nice to have and not a must have. Am I better off just going 2-channel if I'm only going for audio? 2. Is the UMC-200 the right processor, or would I be better going with the XSP-1 if 2 channel is the better option for pure audio? 3. Is the Sony SACD suitable as a CD/SACD transport or would that be a weak link in my new system? If so, would you recommend an Oppo 105 or Emo ERC-3? 4. I'm interested in going digital for hi-res music files at some point in the future, but not now. 5. My goal is to be able to use the funds from my sold components to pay for all the new Emo gear. I have spent weeks reading through multiple boards and reviews to get updated on the latest equipment, but am still somewhat confused. I really appreciate all your advice and recommendations! My answers: 1. If you are only listening to music, yes go to stereo only. Much more accurate, clean and pure. There are others here that will agree with me and still others that will disagree. But hey, you asked. I listened to music, both multichannel and stereo, from my theater system for years by necessity. I had great speakers there then too. Magnepans, Polk LSi15s etc... I put together a stereo in another room a couple years ago and MAN! I can't stand to listen to music in my theater any more. I had forgotten what I was missing. 2. The UMC-1 is a multi-channel processor. The XSP-1 a stereo preamp. Again, YOU have to decide stereo or surround sound. 3. This was a great player in it's day. As long as it's functioning properly, it still probably is. The DAC in it may be outdated. Especially since you say you may want to get into hi-rez digital music. As long as the Sony has digital out, perhaps a new DAC like the XDA-2 or the DC-1 wold be a good idea? 4. Then you are probably ok with your sony disk player for now. 5. I guess 5. wasn't really a quastion. Peace Thanks ocezam. You confirmed an important piece of the puzzle that the sony player is good enough to bridge the gap until I decide on going fully digital hi=res through a Dac, so that I don't need to upgrade the CD player.. My new dilemma is whether I go all differential balanced or not. This is new to me and there are as many posts claiming it improves SQ as there are posts claiming there is no SQ improvement. So the question is if I go XSP-1 gen 2, XPR-1's, DC-1 and ERC-3 and going fully balanced is the total SQ improvement worth the investment? |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 11:05:53 GMT -5
Hi gcannon Welcome to the Emotiva lounge. Some things I would ask is what is really prompting you to make these changes? What do you feel is currently lacking in your system sonically that is making you want to make such sweeping changes? I don't see anything wrong with what you have. Just because gear is 14 years old to me doesn't mean it needs to be changed. Honestly the only thing I would change in your system is the Lexicon MC-1 Processor. I'd go for an XMC-1 for multi-channel processing. Thanks jedinite24. What's motivating me is the N802's just don't sound nearly as good as they should (see my response above for more detail on this). I heard and read that the N802's need lots of power, especially in a large room. I think I'm leaning toward trying a 2.1 channel setup with the XSP-1 G2 and the XPR-1's to see if that gives me the wow I'm looking for. By keeping the MC-1 I can still use the multi-channel if I want to. Thanks again for the help!! |
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Post by Priapulus on May 3, 2014 11:17:37 GMT -5
I upgraded RCA's to XLR's and heard no difference.
I upgraded the CD player dac with a XDR-2 DAC and heard no difference.
I upgraded my umc-1 with an xsp-1 preamp and heard no difference.
I upgraded my Bryston 4B with a xpa-2 amplifier and heard no difference.
Bear in mind I am a classical musician; my hearing is not defective. The truth with electronics is: the technology is so good today, that upgrading will get you measurable lower noise figures, lower harmonic distortion, lower jitter and more power; but you'll rarely get a noticeable change in what you hear, unless your original gear was defective.
But it's fun to upgrade. I'm gradually moving to a XLR differential balanced system, because it is theoretically better (and the plugs grip better); but I don't expect it to cause orgasms. I consider my Xpa-2 amplifier to be grossly overpowered for my room and speakers; but extra power can do no harm, and who knows what my future systems may want...
Sincerely
/b
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 11:33:15 GMT -5
As all have mentioned your system is great. A few things that you probably already know about. 1. Tweaking the positioning of the speakers in the room by even a few inches or degrees of toe in can make more of a difference than all the "upgrades" you are planning on doing. 2. Adding room treatments and bass traps in a large room will also help just as much. So will carpet. 3. And so will setting up your couch position and taking out stuff in the way of the speakers and you like side couches, cofee tables etc. These are the three biggest and cheapest things you could possibly do to help change your audio system. The other big thing is always getting different better speakers but at your level, I wouldn't go touching those speakers! Posting a picture of your room may help us give you some ideas on how to improve the sound of your system. If you have a diamond (electronics and speakers) and throw crude oil at it (setup not being optimized - room, positioning, treatments), you would have a somewhat muddy rock rather than a glittering jewel. And that's how I look at those suggestions I mentioned. Now you probably already know all this already, but I thought I'd mention just in case. Moving on. You mentioned multichannel is nice but not really that essential. GREAT. I tend to agree with you. There are definitely people that have fantastic multi-channel setups. I am a fan of two channel. Most of the music I listen to is two channel. Sticking with it is a good idea imo. It also allows you to spend the same amount of money for greater returns due to lessening the number of speakers and associated gear needed. So onto that. First: your SACD player is fantastic as a transport. Don't go buying other stuff to get a better transport. There are other things your money could go to. But....DAC technology has really progressed. I've found DAC's - especially when speakers and amps are already at a minimum level, and yours already easily exceed them - are important. Research DAC's and go with a good one. The DC-1 though not a perfect DAC is the best DAC I've heard. There must be better ones. But for the price, it's pretty nice. Due to its very low weight, you would lose nothing by auditioning it. Some other DAC's you may want to look at - especially if you are going wit ha dedicated pre-amp Audio gd DAC's - amazing design. You look at their stuff with multiple dac chips on board and your jaw drops. Schiit Gugnir DAC. They've been gathering some nice press. Certain forms of the Eastern Electric DAC's. If you have the money - the Lampizator DAC's have got good reviews. As you can see there is a ton! Now....some careful reading needs to be done to figure out what delivers what for the money. Sometimes expensive DAC's can be equalled by much cheaper ones. But I definitely think you should experiment with the DAC. Next: The preamplifier. I've found these do make a difference - even if the DAC has a volume control. The DC-1 has a pretty nice pre-amplifier on it. However the XSP-1 does better on quieter passages -= not by much though. The DC-1's preamp is pretty nice. The XSP-1 that I have on loan right now is a really musical pre-amplifier. It too isn't perfect, but I am a) critical and b) haven't heard better than the XSP-1 The question is how much are you willing to spend. The XSP-1's main strenght is in its sheer ability to communicate music, have a wide soundstage and keep a "coherent" soundstage. More coherent than DAC direct to amp. However, to say it is without equal is doubtful in my mind. There MUST be others. I just haven't heard them. But....pick them carefully. The XSP-1 brings a LOT to the table. Also...usually I shy away from subs but I never thought I'd say this but.....in a room that you feel is a bit on the large side.....TWIN SUBWOOFERS. GET THEM. One per channel. The two to smooth out the bass. And don't regret it. The amps can wait. Get those subs in there. They make a HUGE difference. Even one capable one makes a huge difference. But two....oh yeah now we're talking. A friend has had a lot of sucess with this www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15(get two) Note: that they are very large. No joke here. The ability of a sub to control/couple to the room (it's not about sheer volume but about smooth full range QUICK delivery) and deliver swift dynamics and smooth out bass response is something that two speakers will have a hard time doing in a large room. Even if you are hearing the low notes, it doesn't actually mean that you are getting it properly produced. If you need some advice on room treatments. Get many of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlAnd the bass traps. There is also a company called GIK acoustics who are responsive to your questions. But even one of them will do. An example of why room treatments. Thanks garbulky for all the advice! Lots of good stuff in your note. Let start responding 1 point at a time and if you don't mind give me your thoughts. 1. I will take some pics this afternoon and post them. I've read a lot about speaker placement and room treatments. I have moved the N802's around to find the best sound, but I may not have tried all the options. I don't use any sound treatments, but the room is carpeted and there is minimal obstructions. There is a small kitchette one one side that you'll see in the pic. 2. Thanks to the advice I have received so far, I am leaning toward 2-channel first, but hedging on keeping some multi-channel in case I discover I still want to keep MC. 3. The Sony SACD player and DAC's. Again, thanks to the advice of you and others, I will plan to keep the Sony and venture more into the DAC world. I think I'll start with the DC-1 and I can try going directly into my amps and through the XSP-1 G2 to see if there is much difference. I have read a bit on setting up a music server running through a DAC and while it this setup seems like the thing to do, I get confused when I read about all the options on how to do it. Can you recommend a link to a site that can provide simple advice on the recommended hardware and software to setup a musice server? That would be very helpful! 4. Preamp - I'm leaning toward the XSP-1 G2 pre-amp. If I want to best 2.1 channel setup for my money, it seems that the XSP-1 G2 will be an important part of achieving that objective. 5. I failed to mention that I do have a Velodyne HGS 18 powered sub. I also have a HGS 12 that I originally had also setup upstairs that I brought down to my HT setup in my living room. It sounds awesome, especially in HT setup. Tight, loud, clean booming bass. Again, thanks for all your help! |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 11:39:10 GMT -5
I upgraded RCA's to XLR's and heard no difference. I upgraded the CD player dac with a XDR-2 DAC and heard no difference. I upgraded my umc-1 with an xsp-1 preamp and heard no difference. I upgraded my Bryston 4B with a xpa-2 amplifier and heard no difference. Bear in mind I am a classical musician; my hearing is not defective. The truth with electronics is: the technology is so good today, that upgrading will get you measurable lower noise figures, lower harmonic distortion, lower jitter and more power; but you'll rarely get a noticeable change in what you hear, unless your original gear was defective. But it's fun to upgrade. I'm gradually moving to a XLR differential balanced system, because it is theoretically better (and the plugs grip better); but I don't expect it to cause orgasms. I consider my Xpa-2 amplifier to be grossly overpowered for my room and speakers; but extra power can do no harm, and who knows what my future systems may want... Sincerely /b Thanks Priapulus. I couldn't help but LOL at your post. You made all the upgrades/changes and heard no difference, but still plan to upgrade to an XPR and go full differntial. We are all so wired alike! Even though we may not hear it we still want it. . Thanks again for your post. It's good to hear from someone who has "been there and done that" . |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 3, 2014 11:51:58 GMT -5
Now that you've mentioned your HT's in another room, I would agree with the XSP-1 and just optimize for two channel.
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Post by Priapulus on May 3, 2014 12:48:23 GMT -5
> Thanks Priapulus. I couldn't help but LOL at your post. You made all the upgrades/changes and heard no difference, but still plan to upgrade to an XPR and go full differntial.
Not XPR; upgrade to XLR interconnects. My only anticipated upgrade is to the mythical XMC-1 and it's xlr interconnects.
...and maybe an OPPO.
Since you have a separate HT, go with a two channel system and xsp-1, as others have suggested.
/b
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Post by garbulky on May 3, 2014 14:18:35 GMT -5
As all have mentioned your system is great. A few things that you probably already know about. 1. Tweaking the positioning of the speakers in the room by even a few inches or degrees of toe in can make more of a difference than all the "upgrades" you are planning on doing. 2. Adding room treatments and bass traps in a large room will also help just as much. So will carpet. 3. And so will setting up your couch position and taking out stuff in the way of the speakers and you like side couches, cofee tables etc. These are the three biggest and cheapest things you could possibly do to help change your audio system. The other big thing is always getting different better speakers but at your level, I wouldn't go touching those speakers! Posting a picture of your room may help us give you some ideas on how to improve the sound of your system. If you have a diamond (electronics and speakers) and throw crude oil at it (setup not being optimized - room, positioning, treatments), you would have a somewhat muddy rock rather than a glittering jewel. And that's how I look at those suggestions I mentioned. Now you probably already know all this already, but I thought I'd mention just in case. Moving on. You mentioned multichannel is nice but not really that essential. GREAT. I tend to agree with you. There are definitely people that have fantastic multi-channel setups. I am a fan of two channel. Most of the music I listen to is two channel. Sticking with it is a good idea imo. It also allows you to spend the same amount of money for greater returns due to lessening the number of speakers and associated gear needed. So onto that. First: your SACD player is fantastic as a transport. Don't go buying other stuff to get a better transport. There are other things your money could go to. But....DAC technology has really progressed. I've found DAC's - especially when speakers and amps are already at a minimum level, and yours already easily exceed them - are important. Research DAC's and go with a good one. The DC-1 though not a perfect DAC is the best DAC I've heard. There must be better ones. But for the price, it's pretty nice. Due to its very low weight, you would lose nothing by auditioning it. Some other DAC's you may want to look at - especially if you are going wit ha dedicated pre-amp Audio gd DAC's - amazing design. You look at their stuff with multiple dac chips on board and your jaw drops. Schiit Gugnir DAC. They've been gathering some nice press. Certain forms of the Eastern Electric DAC's. If you have the money - the Lampizator DAC's have got good reviews. As you can see there is a ton! Now....some careful reading needs to be done to figure out what delivers what for the money. Sometimes expensive DAC's can be equalled by much cheaper ones. But I definitely think you should experiment with the DAC. Next: The preamplifier. I've found these do make a difference - even if the DAC has a volume control. The DC-1 has a pretty nice pre-amplifier on it. However the XSP-1 does better on quieter passages -= not by much though. The DC-1's preamp is pretty nice. The XSP-1 that I have on loan right now is a really musical pre-amplifier. It too isn't perfect, but I am a) critical and b) haven't heard better than the XSP-1 The question is how much are you willing to spend. The XSP-1's main strenght is in its sheer ability to communicate music, have a wide soundstage and keep a "coherent" soundstage. More coherent than DAC direct to amp. However, to say it is without equal is doubtful in my mind. There MUST be others. I just haven't heard them. But....pick them carefully. The XSP-1 brings a LOT to the table. Also...usually I shy away from subs but I never thought I'd say this but.....in a room that you feel is a bit on the large side.....TWIN SUBWOOFERS. GET THEM. One per channel. The two to smooth out the bass. And don't regret it. The amps can wait. Get those subs in there. They make a HUGE difference. Even one capable one makes a huge difference. But two....oh yeah now we're talking. A friend has had a lot of sucess with this www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15(get two) Note: that they are very large. No joke here. The ability of a sub to control/couple to the room (it's not about sheer volume but about smooth full range QUICK delivery) and deliver swift dynamics and smooth out bass response is something that two speakers will have a hard time doing in a large room. Even if you are hearing the low notes, it doesn't actually mean that you are getting it properly produced. If you need some advice on room treatments. Get many of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlAnd the bass traps. There is also a company called GIK acoustics who are responsive to your questions. But even one of them will do. An example of why room treatments. Thanks garbulky for all the advice! Lots of good stuff in your note. Let start responding 1 point at a time and if you don't mind give me your thoughts. 1. I will take some pics this afternoon and post them. I've read a lot about speaker placement and room treatments. I have moved the N802's around to find the best sound, but I may not have tried all the options. I don't use any sound treatments, but the room is carpeted and there is minimal obstructions. There is a small kitchette one one side that you'll see in the pic. 2. Thanks to the advice I have received so far, I am leaning toward 2-channel first, but hedging on keeping some multi-channel in case I discover I still want to keep MC. 3. The Sony SACD player and DAC's. Again, thanks to the advice of you and others, I will plan to keep the Sony and venture more into the DAC world. I think I'll start with the DC-1 and I can try going directly into my amps and through the XSP-1 G2 to see if there is much difference. I have read a bit on setting up a music server running through a DAC and while it this setup seems like the thing to do, I get confused when I read about all the options on how to do it. Can you recommend a link to a site that can provide simple advice on the recommended hardware and software to setup a musice server? That would be very helpful! 4. Preamp - I'm leaning toward the XSP-1 G2 pre-amp. If I want to best 2.1 channel setup for my money, it seems that the XSP-1 G2 will be an important part of achieving that objective. 5. I failed to mention that I do have a Velodyne HGS 18 powered sub. I also have a HGS 12 that I originally had also setup upstairs that I brought down to my HT setup in my living room. It sounds awesome, especially in HT setup. Tight, loud, clean booming bass. Again, thanks for all your help! I thought I had a rather good room. There was no real bloat or anything. A clap test didn't really echo etc. But the truth is even minmal room treatment helped it significantly. Sound is simply more complex and you don't realize there is something amiss until you actually hear the difference for yourself. If you haven't explored it...do so. It sounds daunting but it really isn't. Just make sure you get quite a few of them. A large room needs more panels. Also don't forget bass panels. For your velodyne have you done a bass sweep test? Using the subwoofer crawl? Room treatments and bass panels can make sound not smear together, reduce overhang and also improve clarity. Now there is some good news..... the XSP-1 has a really nice HT bypass system. So you can integrate your current multichannel processor alongside a standalone two channel and reap all the benefits of both. It really works quite well. The DC-1 also has a standalone "pseudo"version of it. You use it by simply using the analog inputs as an HT bypass. It may get a little troublesome integrating a subwoofer though not impossible. As for balanced systems. I've never had the pleasure of listening to a fully balanced system. However what I have noticed is that there is a tendency (though not a rule) that gear simply sounds better from their XLR outputs. For instance my XDA-1 certainly sounded better from the XLR outputs. I'm not sure of the reasoon but I think it has to do with the designers design for the XLR and then use some sort of converter to get the RCA output. Most people that have gone balanced route here have noticed no difference. So just giving you a headsup. But...just like you, I want a fully balanced system. DACs: You may be interested in my DC-1 review here emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33501/garbulkys-review-love-female-voiceIt's definitely a lose little risk to try it out for thirty days due to its weight. I have auditioned the XSP-1 as well. In my opinion it is a pre-amp that can definitely make music. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to use the DC-1 with it. Some people have mentioned that the XSP-1 veils the music very slightly. I believe the DC-1 is superior to the DAC I'm trying out so I have a hard time pinpointing what is causing what (in terms of cons) for the XSP-1 so I will withhold my comments on any kind of veiling. I won't rule it out. But I simply haven't been able to pinpoint the cause. I do know that it has very good control of the sound and increased the soundstage width of the dac I am using now - in a good natural way. It also did well with orchestral works. Definitely an enjoyable presentation imo. The XSP-1 is expensive but also I don't know of any other pre-amp that has all its features and specs at a thousand bucks. As for the XPR-1's. I haven't heard them but I have heard the XPR-2. They are a fine amplifier. They are not cheap. But they are cheap for the power they push Did you know the XPA-1 gen 2's have 60 watts of class A per monoblock, are fully differential, plus are class AB with no power rail switching? The XPR-1's switch power rails in a class H at around 200 watts of power. Don't get me wrong they will still get upto its rated power with ease. The XPR-1's also have some healthy class A abilities. Just not as much as the XPA-1. The class A component of the XPA-1 really appeals to me. Plus they are also fully differential etc. The XPR-2 I heard had a very refined sound which I really liked. It had a three dimensionality to instruments and some good control which was not up in your face but a more relaxed feel to it. But imo, the biggest difference will be room treatments and positioning. Then in erms of actual money and electronics DAC Pre-amp. Amplifiers (maybe). Don't get me wrong, I have heard differences in Emotiva amplifiers within their own range - all positive. But in terms of money spent the above is the way I would go. |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 14:31:41 GMT -5
As all have mentioned your system is great. A few things that you probably already know about. 1. Tweaking the positioning of the speakers in the room by even a few inches or degrees of toe in can make more of a difference than all the "upgrades" you are planning on doing. 2. Adding room treatments and bass traps in a large room will also help just as much. So will carpet. 3. And so will setting up your couch position and taking out stuff in the way of the speakers and you like side couches, cofee tables etc. These are the three biggest and cheapest things you could possibly do to help change your audio system. The other big thing is always getting different better speakers but at your level, I wouldn't go touching those speakers! Posting a picture of your room may help us give you some ideas on how to improve the sound of your system. If you have a diamond (electronics and speakers) and throw crude oil at it (setup not being optimized - room, positioning, treatments), you would have a somewhat muddy rock rather than a glittering jewel. And that's how I look at those suggestions I mentioned. Now you probably already know all this already, but I thought I'd mention just in case. Moving on. You mentioned multichannel is nice but not really that essential. GREAT. I tend to agree with you. There are definitely people that have fantastic multi-channel setups. I am a fan of two channel. Most of the music I listen to is two channel. Sticking with it is a good idea imo. It also allows you to spend the same amount of money for greater returns due to lessening the number of speakers and associated gear needed. So onto that. First: your SACD player is fantastic as a transport. Don't go buying other stuff to get a better transport. There are other things your money could go to. But....DAC technology has really progressed. I've found DAC's - especially when speakers and amps are already at a minimum level, and yours already easily exceed them - are important. Research DAC's and go with a good one. The DC-1 though not a perfect DAC is the best DAC I've heard. There must be better ones. But for the price, it's pretty nice. Due to its very low weight, you would lose nothing by auditioning it. Some other DAC's you may want to look at - especially if you are going wit ha dedicated pre-amp Audio gd DAC's - amazing design. You look at their stuff with multiple dac chips on board and your jaw drops. Schiit Gugnir DAC. They've been gathering some nice press. Certain forms of the Eastern Electric DAC's. If you have the money - the Lampizator DAC's have got good reviews. As you can see there is a ton! Now....some careful reading needs to be done to figure out what delivers what for the money. Sometimes expensive DAC's can be equalled by much cheaper ones. But I definitely think you should experiment with the DAC. Next: The preamplifier. I've found these do make a difference - even if the DAC has a volume control. The DC-1 has a pretty nice pre-amplifier on it. However the XSP-1 does better on quieter passages -= not by much though. The DC-1's preamp is pretty nice. The XSP-1 that I have on loan right now is a really musical pre-amplifier. It too isn't perfect, but I am a) critical and b) haven't heard better than the XSP-1 The question is how much are you willing to spend. The XSP-1's main strenght is in its sheer ability to communicate music, have a wide soundstage and keep a "coherent" soundstage. More coherent than DAC direct to amp. However, to say it is without equal is doubtful in my mind. There MUST be others. I just haven't heard them. But....pick them carefully. The XSP-1 brings a LOT to the table. Also...usually I shy away from subs but I never thought I'd say this but.....in a room that you feel is a bit on the large side.....TWIN SUBWOOFERS. GET THEM. One per channel. The two to smooth out the bass. And don't regret it. The amps can wait. Get those subs in there. They make a HUGE difference. Even one capable one makes a huge difference. But two....oh yeah now we're talking. A friend has had a lot of sucess with this www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15(get two) Note: that they are very large. No joke here. The ability of a sub to control/couple to the room (it's not about sheer volume but about smooth full range QUICK delivery) and deliver swift dynamics and smooth out bass response is something that two speakers will have a hard time doing in a large room. Even if you are hearing the low notes, it doesn't actually mean that you are getting it properly produced. If you need some advice on room treatments. Get many of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlAnd the bass traps. There is also a company called GIK acoustics who are responsive to your questions. But even one of them will do. An example of why room treatments. Thanks garbulky for all the advice! Lots of good stuff in your note. Let start responding 1 point at a time and if you don't mind give me your thoughts. 1. I will take some pics this afternoon and post them. I've read a lot about speaker placement and room treatments. I have moved the N802's around to find the best sound, but I may not have tried all the options. I don't use any sound treatments, but the room is carpeted and there is minimal obstructions. There is a small kitchette one one side that you'll see in the pic. 2. Thanks to the advice I have received so far, I am leaning toward 2-channel first, but hedging on keeping some multi-channel in case I discover I still want to keep MC. 3. The Sony SACD player and DAC's. Again, thanks to the advice of you and others, I will plan to keep the Sony and venture more into the DAC world. I think I'll start with the DC-1 and I can try going directly into my amps and through the XSP-1 G2 to see if there is much difference. I have read a bit on setting up a music server running through a DAC and while it this setup seems like the thing to do, I get confused when I read about all the options on how to do it. Can you recommend a link to a site that can provide simple advice on the recommended hardware and software to setup a musice server? That would be very helpful! 4. Preamp - I'm leaning toward the XSP-1 G2 pre-amp. If I want to best 2.1 channel setup for my money, it seems that the XSP-1 G2 will be an important part of achieving that objective. 5. I failed to mention that I do have a Velodyne HGS 18 powered sub. I also have a HGS 12 that I originally had also setup upstairs that I brought down to my HT setup in my living room. It sounds awesome, especially in HT setup. Tight, loud, clean booming bass. Again, thanks for all your help! Thanks to all for all your advice. Here are a couple a couple pics of my system. Any suggestions to improve placement or room treatments are appreciated. The Veledyne HGS 18 is on the right - back wall behind the N802.    |
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The question is how much are you willing to spend. The XSP-1's main strenght is in its sheer ability to communicate music, have a wide soundstage and keep a "coherent" soundstage. More coherent than DAC direct to amp. 
