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Post by garbulky on May 3, 2014 14:54:15 GMT -5
There are a lot of things right in the placement of your speakers. First you've tried to place them relatively awway from the walls. AND from the rear walls. Plus you havecarpet. They are also nicely spread apart etc. You've got all the basics right. Also that curvature of your couch should help you with the sound. Also...bravo. You have pulled the speakers forward of the tv. GREAT. You also have some nice higher cielings. You may want to see if there is a difference without the ottoman but there may not be. Room treatments... I think should help. There was a gentleman here that posted a fantastic treatment setup for his room and it's very similar to yours Found here emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/21990/room-emo-gear?page=125Room treatments don't need to be ugly or obstrusive. You can get actual paintings on some room treatments. Have them colored to blend in with the walls. Etc. ATS acoustics have a variety of options. Don't forget bass traps. Also the corner loading is good but do experiment with different positions using that subwoofer crawl just in case. Positioning: These are all subjective to your impressions and room. If they sound off, go with what you feel sounds best. They may be toed in too much. Try moving them slightly closer together. Toe them less inwards and move your couch a little forward. The idea is to get the speakers the width of your normal visual eyefield if you are wearing glasses (as in not at the very end of yuour vision but sort of take your arms pointing straight forward and move them outward 20 to 30 degrees. None of these may be right for you, it depends on what you hear. But do experiment with them. Sometimes moving the couch forward may lose you some bass. Sometimes it may tighten up the sound etc. Moving the speakers closer together may also tighten up the sound. But move them too close and you loose the nice wide sound field. Toeing them in too much can sometimes make the sound appear to razor sharp in the center and lose that nice enveloping focus so experiment a LOT with this. Use this www.richardfarrar.com/are-your-speakers-wired-correctly/To see if the center balance test appears to appear slam dunk in the center. Floating as you may. It shouldn't be loosely in the center. It should seem like a woman literalyl talked to you from a position in the room. But it will not prevent the speakers from being toed in TOO much. That has to be done by ear. Norah jones Cold cold heart and don't know why both have excellent tests for the phantom center  Good luck. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 3, 2014 15:21:58 GMT -5
Nice room, I don't know about the other guys but what I find helps me with acoustics is a picture taken standing in between the speakers and looking into the room. Kinda like seeing what the speakers see. With that ceiling design I'd say it's going to need some well placed panels and some interesting bass traps in the corners.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 15:37:53 GMT -5
Nice room, I don't know about the other guys but what I find helps me with acoustics is a picture taken standing in between the speakers and looking into the room. Kinda like seeing what the speakers see. With that ceiling design I'd say it's going to need some well placed panels and some interesting bass traps in the corners. Cheers Gary Here's the view I think you're looking for.  |
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Post by frenchyfranky on May 3, 2014 15:56:46 GMT -5
First you have 30 days trial with Emo products, so before selling any of your actual equipement don't you think that it's a good idea to try and compare the new stuff before?
BTW your actual audio équipements are pretty good, it should be very interesting to make a side by side audio test with Emo products.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 3, 2014 15:57:59 GMT -5
Nice room, I don't know about the other guys but what I find helps me with acoustics is a picture taken standing in between the speakers and looking into the room. Kinda like seeing what the speakers see. With that ceiling design I'd say it's going to need some well placed panels and some interesting bass traps in the corners. Here's the view I think you're looking for. View AttachmentThat's the one, thanks. My 20 cents; Bass traps in the 4 corners. Absorption panels at the first and second reflection points on both the wall and the ceiling slopes. The alcove at the end of the room worries me, it could be acting as a sound trap, have you tried standing in there and listening? My uncle had his home office space like that, directly opposite the speakers, and the sound in the alcove used to be better than in the room. We ended up putting bi fold doors there with absorption panels on them, he closed them when seriously music listening. Then I'd try various speaker layouts and locations, as the guys have mentioned the speakers look a little too much toed in but it may be correct with the room as it is. Acoustic panels don't need to be boring these days, there are a number of places in the US that do printed panels, one if them www.cinemashop.com/pop/printed-acoustic-panels.htmCheers Gary |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 21:25:49 GMT -5
First you have 30 days trial with Emo products, so before selling any of your actual equipement don't you think that it's a good idea to try and compare the new stuff before? BTW your actual audio équipements are pretty good, it should be very interesting to make a side by side audio test with Emo products. Thanks frenchyfranky for the suggestion. I think you are right about tryng before selling anything. At this point I am going to try the XSP-1 G2 preamp and the UMC-200 to first answer the question of 2 channel vs multi-channel. The MC-1 really doesn't help here because I want to play my SACD's and compare to the 2-channel. And if I like both, I can keep both or return both if the mythical XMC-1 actually appears in the next 30 days. With that settled, I will then try the XPR-1 amp for the N802's. |
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Post by gcannon on May 3, 2014 21:38:32 GMT -5
Here's the view I think you're looking for. That's the one, thanks. My 20 cents; Bass traps in the 4 corners. Absorption panels at the first and second reflection points on both the wall and the ceiling slopes. The alcove at the end of the room worries me, it could be acting as a sound trap, have you tried standing in there and listening? My uncle had his home office space like that, directly opposite the speakers, and the sound in the alcove used to be better than in the room. We ended up putting bi fold doors there with absorption panels on them, he closed them when seriously music listening. Then I'd try various speaker layouts and locations, as the guys have mentioned the speakers look a little too much toed in but it may be correct with the room as it is. Acoustic panels don't need to be boring these days, there are a number of places in the US that do printed panels, one if them www.cinemashop.com/pop/printed-acoustic-panels.htmCheers Gary Thanks Gary. What looks like an alcove at the end of the room is actually another room, which I currently use as my home office. I do listen to music while working sometimes and it does not sound better than in the main room. Doing a quick estimate at the link you provided it looks like I could easily spend $3-5k on sound treatments! I always heard that sound treatments are inexpensive and provide a big bang for the buck. Are there DIY ways to do the same for under $1k? I have moved the speakers around quite a bit, so at the moment they may be towed in a bit too much. They were back beside the racks and closer to the walls. I will continue to play with them and see if things get better. I haven't found the magic spot where they come alive yet. I also plan to switch out the speaker cables to see if that makes a difference. I have always had these giant MIT cables. I will try to use some 12 ga wire and bridge the bi-wire connections to see if that makes any difference. Just tying to eliminate all to possibilities. Thanks again for all the help!! Very much appreciated.. George. |
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Post by garbulky on May 3, 2014 23:02:39 GMT -5
That's the one, thanks. My 20 cents; Bass traps in the 4 corners. Absorption panels at the first and second reflection points on both the wall and the ceiling slopes. The alcove at the end of the room worries me, it could be acting as a sound trap, have you tried standing in there and listening? My uncle had his home office space like that, directly opposite the speakers, and the sound in the alcove used to be better than in the room. We ended up putting bi fold doors there with absorption panels on them, he closed them when seriously music listening. Then I'd try various speaker layouts and locations, as the guys have mentioned the speakers look a little too much toed in but it may be correct with the room as it is. Acoustic panels don't need to be boring these days, there are a number of places in the US that do printed panels, one if them www.cinemashop.com/pop/printed-acoustic-panels.htmCheers Gary Thanks Gary. What looks like an alcove at the end of the room is actually another room, which I currently use as my home office. I do listen to music while working sometimes and it does not sound better than in the main room. Doing a quick estimate at the link you provided it looks like I could easily spend $3-5k on sound treatments! I always heard that sound treatments are inexpensive and provide a big bang for the buck. Are there DIY ways to do the same for under $1k? I have moved the speakers around quite a bit, so at the moment they may be towed in a bit too much. They were back beside the racks and closer to the walls. I will continue to play with them and see if things get better. I haven't found the magic spot where they come alive yet. I also plan to switch out the speaker cables to see if that makes a difference. I have always had these giant MIT cables. I will try to use some 12 ga wire and bridge the bi-wire connections to see if that makes any difference. Just tying to eliminate all to possibilities. Thanks again for all the help!! Very much appreciated.. George. Uh welll.... www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlThese guys run you 50 bucks a pop rather than 300 a pop. If you scroll to the bottom of that web page linked you will find all kinds of nice colors to choose from rather than plain wite. Though if you opt for the ATS art panels it could get a bit more pricey. It depends on your aesthetic desires really. www.atsacoustics.com/art-acoustic-panels.htmlYou can build your own panels for $20-30 bucks a pop. So you won't have to worry about it being out of the question due to price. Truth is even one makes a difference but more is better. And don't forget bass traps. A few hundred bucks may well be the best cash you spend. No joke. I know it's not fun and doesn't seem to make sense as what your doing is a "passive" upgrade rather than actual electronics. But it has helped me and lots of other people. And it's not for problematic rooms. It's for every room. So "it sounds fine as it is already why bother" doesn't really factor into the room treatment equation. There will most likely be a benefit. In fact, I wouldn't dream of spending all that cash on a system without first going for panels. Here is a more typical example which may seem less daunting. Hope it helps. Remember you don't HAVE to go extreme - even a bit helps. Usually behind the couch. In between the speakers. And the first reflection points on the side walls. |
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Post by andyman on May 4, 2014 1:01:21 GMT -5
is that a pioneer pro elite 610 between those B&Ws ?
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 11:29:45 GMT -5
is that a pioneer pro elite 610 between those B&Ws ? It's a pioneer elite 68" HDTV (1080i), but not sure of the model. It was top of the line at the time and $10k list! Still works, but not the same PQ as my new Panasonic P60VT60 I have in my living room. It's up on my 3rd level and took 6 professional movers to carry it up there. I have no idea how I'm going to get it out when that day comes - most likely in pieces . |
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Post by frenchyfranky on May 4, 2014 12:02:51 GMT -5
First you have 30 days trial with Emo products, so before selling any of your actual equipement don't you think that it's a good idea to try and compare the new stuff before? BTW your actual audio équipements are pretty good, it should be very interesting to make a side by side audio test with Emo products. Thanks frenchyfranky for the suggestion. I think you are right about tryng before selling anything. At this point I am going to try the XSP-1 G2 preamp and the UMC-200 to first answer the question of 2 channel vs multi-channel. The MC-1 really doesn't help here because I want to play my SACD's and compare to the 2-channel. And if I like both, I can keep both or return both if the mythical XMC-1 actually appears in the next 30 days. With that settled, I will then try the XPR-1 amp for the N802's. For sure you'll won't be disappointed with the XSP-1. |
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 12:45:57 GMT -5
I spent some time this afternoon moving my speakers around a bit as some had suggested. I moved them closer together and less toed in. I did notice a difference, but it was not a good thing. I discoverd that one of the woofers in the right N802 is vibrating. I tried tighening the screws without success. If I put pressure on the speaker, the vibration stops, so I don't think there's any permenant damage. There's definitely a rattle that I've got to get fixed. I'll take the speaker out later this afternoon and see if I can find the problem. Any ideas?
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Post by andyman on May 4, 2014 13:11:20 GMT -5
Lol. I will have the same problem but mine is in the basement. Our systems are similar. I have a Bryston 4Bst & 5Bst a Lexicon DC2 and B&W 805s & htm and also a B&W asw2500. I love the system for theater but 2 channel could be improved upon.
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Post by garbulky on May 4, 2014 13:20:04 GMT -5
I spent some time this afternoon moving my speakers around a bit as some had suggested. I moved them closer together and less toed in. I did notice a difference, but it was not a good thing. I discoverd that one of the woofers in the right N802 is vibrating. I tried tighening the screws without success. If I put pressure on the speaker, the vibration stops, so I don't think there's any permenant damage. There's definitely a rattle that I've got to get fixed. I'll take the speaker out later this afternoon and see if I can find the problem. Any ideas? I'm glad you tried it. Like I said every room, setup is different and your ears are a more important gauge. Sorry to hear about the vibration. Hope you get it figured out. Now is it a rattle or a distortion sound? |
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 13:51:27 GMT -5
Lol. I will have the same problem but mine is in the basement. Our systems are similar. I have a Bryston 4Bst & 5Bst a Lexicon DC2 and B&W 805s & htm and also a B&W asw2500. I love the system for theater but 2 channel could be improved upon. Definitely better for HT than music, which doesn't make sense. |
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 13:52:56 GMT -5
I spent some time this afternoon moving my speakers around a bit as some had suggested. I moved them closer together and less toed in. I did notice a difference, but it was not a good thing. I discoverd that one of the woofers in the right N802 is vibrating. I tried tighening the screws without success. If I put pressure on the speaker, the vibration stops, so I don't think there's any permenant damage. There's definitely a rattle that I've got to get fixed. I'll take the speaker out later this afternoon and see if I can find the problem. Any ideas? I'm glad you tried it. Like I said every room, setup is different and your ears are a more important gauge. Sorry to hear about the vibration. Hope you get it figured out. Now is it a rattle or a distortion sound? Definitely a rattle and not distortion, which gives me hope that it might be fixable, either by me or a speaker repair shop. I'll update after I tinker with it in a short while... |
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 14:36:24 GMT -5
I'm glad you tried it. Like I said every room, setup is different and your ears are a more important gauge. Sorry to hear about the vibration. Hope you get it figured out. Now is it a rattle or a distortion sound? Definitely a rattle and not distortion, which gives me hope that it might be fixable, either by me or a speaker repair shop. I'll update after I tinker with it in a short while... It's definitely the speaker, one of the woofers. I switched them and the rattle stayed with the woofer. I looked at it with a flashlight and didn't see any damage of any kind. Hopefully it can be repaired vs a new woofer for ~$350. And I just pulled the trigger last night on an XSP-1 G2 and a UMC-200 so I can compare the 2-channel preamp to the multi-channel to confirm which way I will go. I will call Emotiva tomorrow AM to cancel my order until I get the speaker fixed or replaced, which will likely take 2+ weeks. |
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Post by garbulky on May 4, 2014 16:25:33 GMT -5
Definitely a rattle and not distortion, which gives me hope that it might be fixable, either by me or a speaker repair shop. I'll update after I tinker with it in a short while... It's definitely the speaker, one of the woofers. I switched them and the rattle stayed with the woofer. I looked at it with a flashlight and didn't see any damage of any kind. Hopefully it can be repaired vs a new woofer for ~$350. And I just pulled the trigger last night on an XSP-1 G2 and a UMC-200 so I can compare the 2-channel preamp to the multi-channel to confirm which way I will go. I will call Emotiva tomorrow AM to cancel my order until I get the speaker fixed or replaced, which will likely take 2+ weeks. Nice! Congratulations! P.S. In case you are looking for stereo sound, the Dc-1 should be better than the UMC-200. Not that there is anything wrong with the UMC-200. Just that the DC-1 is rather special. I've auditioned the XSP-1, USP-1, DC-1, XDA-2, , XDA-1, XPR-2, XPA-2 UPA-2, Mini-X and Oppo-105 though not all together. The DC-1 is the best value for money upgrade I've tried so far out of all of them. Most of the other equipment was fantastic too and all contributed positively to the system. Just the DC-1 brought the most value for the money spent imo. |
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Post by gcannon on May 4, 2014 17:34:14 GMT -5
It's definitely the speaker, one of the woofers. I switched them and the rattle stayed with the woofer. I looked at it with a flashlight and didn't see any damage of any kind. Hopefully it can be repaired vs a new woofer for ~$350. And I just pulled the trigger last night on an XSP-1 G2 and a UMC-200 so I can compare the 2-channel preamp to the multi-channel to confirm which way I will go. I will call Emotiva tomorrow AM to cancel my order until I get the speaker fixed or replaced, which will likely take 2+ weeks. Nice! Congratulations! P.S. In case you are looking for stereo sound, the Dc-1 should be better than the UMC-200. Not that there is anything wrong with the UMC-200. Just that the DC-1 is rather special. I've auditioned the XSP-1, USP-1, DC-1, XDA-2, , XDA-1, XPR-2, XPA-2 UPA-2, Mini-X and Oppo-105 though not all together. The DC-1 is the best value for money upgrade I've tried so far out of all of them. Most of the other equipment was fantastic too and all contributed positively to the system. Just the DC-1 brought the most value for the money spent imo. The DC-1 is definitely on my list; but first I have to answer the 2-channel vs multi-channel question. If I go 2-channel, then the DC-1 will replace the UMC-200, which will be sent back. |
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