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Post by dougport on Jun 26, 2014 19:24:49 GMT -5
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Post by thepcguy on Jun 26, 2014 19:33:46 GMT -5
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Post by milsap195 on Jun 26, 2014 20:03:00 GMT -5
That's pretty slick but they are a chunk of change. That would be nice to hold that patent!
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Jun 26, 2014 22:53:20 GMT -5
It took over 14 years of research, innovation, and refinements, with a 20 million dollar investment to produce the Laser Turntable! Our motto is: "No Needle, No Wear ™." The LT features an absolutely contact-free optical pickup system. Play a record thousands of times with no damage to the record. Get the same sparkling sound on the thousandth play as on the first play. Had those NOT come out right around the time CDs hit the market, they might have got to the point where they didn't cost an arm and a leg, and require a tech to come out to your house for final adjustments in situ...they might have become the new standard-bearer. As it was, they lost out to the new format with the big money behind it, and never caught on to the point of volume sales. A shame, really...IIRC, it started as some guy's grad-school project, which he put a lot of effort into, and eventually brought to market...been a while since I read about it, though. Would love to have one of my own! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 27, 2014 0:14:26 GMT -5
I just thought you love vinyl so much (you said you cried when the CD came out) ALL your favorites are in vinyl format. It was 30 years or so ago! |
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Post by lionear on Jun 27, 2014 1:37:47 GMT -5
Once upon a time, the record labels came up with "CD-4" recordings. You had Left channel, Right channel, rear Left channel and rear Right channel - all on an LP. The CD-4 recording was played back with a normal stereo phono cartridge and with a special quadrophonic amp, you could decode all 4 channels. If you didn't have a CD-4 amp, you could still play a CD-4 LP - but you wouldn't get the rear channels. In order to get 4 channels into an LP, the rear channels were encoded on a carrier signal. In order not to affect the front Left and Right channels, this carrier signal had to be outside the audio band - it was (drum roll please).... 30 kHz. The entry in Wikipedia puts the highest frequency on a CD-4 LP at 45 kHz. All this was in the 1970's - and LP's, turntables, arms and cartridges are a lot better nowadays. All this technical stuff may explain the difference in the tonal balance of CD's vs LP's. Instruments on CD's sounds transposed down. On LP's, violins sound more real, and the better high frequency info helps render the soundstage a lot better. |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 27, 2014 7:15:03 GMT -5
A local electronic repair shop has it. He has another one that is his personal player. He also has a technics 1200 mk2 for 350 but it's a little rough. I have found out a couple more things about it. It does have a few scratches on the deck and a small crack near the cover hinge. It comes with a Stanton L720 cartridge with a D71EE stylus. Original Sansui headshell, too. $625. The first pic has the scratches. For reference, there's a guy who buys, services and restores vintage gear locally. He does a fantastic job - when he says mint, he means you can practically hear the Clapton and smell the weed in the room from 1976. Here's a post of what he currently has available, so you can compare prices. desmoines.craigslist.org/ele/4489065870.html |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Jun 27, 2014 9:58:57 GMT -5
That LASER turntable (which I've heard of many times before - but never seen in person) sounds like an excellent idea. From their literature, it looks like it is very well thought out; they seem to have addressed all of the "issues" I can think of that might come up with doing things that way. It has the ability to track different levels of the groove to avoid damaged ones, is totally wear free from wear (it should also NOT cause permanent damage if you play a dusty record on it, since it won't push the dust into the surface), and a servo-tracking system should obviate rumble (the wow and flutter will be dependent on the physical accuracy of the rotating mechanism - which is probably very good - especially since, because there is no contact with the record while it's playing, there are no drag or other forces on the record). The only specific weakness I can see to how they do things is that they track the shoulder of the groove to position the read mechanism. This is unavoidable (you have to track something to establish position); however, this means that, if the groove is damaged up around the shoulder area, that damage will translate as noise on playback. (But all this means is that a small percentage of damaged records may play a tiny bit worse on it than on a normal turntable - but I suspect the percentage would be small.) There is only one possible real down-side that I can think of (besides price); a normal physical stylus is physical, so it has the ability to push small/light bits of dust and debris out of the way - like an itty bitty bulldozer. The LASER, being non-contact, will absolutely "play" any speck of fluff sitting on the record as if it were physically attached. I would expect that to make the LASER pickup much fussier about your record being absolutely clean. I think I can honestly say that, IF I was planning to buy a turntable, and IF I was willing to spend that much for one, then I would seriously consider that one. Assuming it lives up to claims, it appears to be about as close to perfect as you can get - in terms of reading a record as it should be read.  Once upon a time, the record labels came up with "CD-4" recordings. You had Left channel, Right channel, rear Left channel and rear Right channel - all on an LP. The CD-4 recording was played back with a normal stereo phono cartridge and with a special quadrophonic amp, you could decode all 4 channels. If you didn't have a CD-4 amp, you could still play a CD-4 LP - but you wouldn't get the rear channels. In order to get 4 channels into an LP, the rear channels were encoded on a carrier signal. In order not to affect the front Left and Right channels, this carrier signal had to be outside the audio band - it was (drum roll please).... 30 kHz. The entry in Wikipedia puts the highest frequency on a CD-4 LP at 45 kHz. All this was in the 1970's - and LP's, turntables, arms and cartridges are a lot better nowadays. All this technical stuff may explain the difference in the tonal balance of CD's vs LP's. Instruments on CD's sounds transposed down. On LP's, violins sound more real, and the better high frequency info helps render the soundstage a lot better. |
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Post by jmilton on Jun 27, 2014 10:05:39 GMT -5
KeithL....except for the dust and debris issue, you just described a CD player.  Oh, the irony. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 27, 2014 10:08:40 GMT -5
KeithL....except of the dust and debris issue, you just described a CD player. But I think the laser TT will pick up ticks and pops, too. That makes it more authentic. |
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Post by dt on Jun 27, 2014 10:26:31 GMT -5
What would an Emotiva laser TT look like? Too bad it's so expensive to produce.
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Post by jmilton on Jun 27, 2014 10:41:34 GMT -5
 The proto-type was abandoned because it totally wasted the record grooves (and, of course, that incident with "nine-fingered Bob")...but it was way cool! |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 27, 2014 11:00:48 GMT -5
The proto-type was abandoned because it totally wasted the record grooves (and, of course, that incident with "nine-fingered Bob")...but it was way cool! That's because the laser was a rated as an all-lasers-driven type laser. You know a REAL laser and not one of those pretenders that make do with just one wimpy laser. It's not the laser but the puny vinyl that's the problem. |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 27, 2014 11:03:55 GMT -5
The proto-type was abandoned because it totally wasted the record grooves (and, of course, that incident with "nine-fingered Bob")...but it was way cool! Let me know when the special edition laser-version of Dark Side of the Moon is available. I've heard there will be a special mirror embedded into the bottom of the groove that creates a synced laser light show in your room as you listen. Real heavy, man. |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 27, 2014 11:23:59 GMT -5
The proto-type was abandoned because it totally wasted the record grooves (and, of course, that incident with "nine-fingered Bob")...but it was way cool! Let me know when the special edition laser-version of Dark Side of the Moon is available. I've heard there will be a special mirror embedded into the bottom of the groove that creates a synced laser light show in your room as you listen. Real heavy, man. And Toto too!!!!!!!! |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Jun 27, 2014 13:46:09 GMT -5
Not nearly ...  A CD player is digital; it is playing back ones and zeros. Even if a CD gets worn or damaged, as long as all the ones and zeros remain intact, or there are few enough errors that the built-in error correction can correct them perfectly, it will always play back exactly the same. A CD player is totally immune to things like rumble and surface noise (within limits) because digital data doesn't care. (If a certain "1" happens to read as 1.032, or 0.963, digitally it's still "a perfect 1".) Also, since the data is buffered and re-clocked in basically ALL CD players, wow, flutter, and other speed variations are also completely eliminated. (The audio will be clocked at the correct rate, even if the data being read isn't.) The LASER turntable, and the record itself, are still ANALOG devices. Even though the mechanism used to read the groove is a LASER, it is still following an analog groove, in an analog fashion, and producing an analog output. If the record gets worn or damaged, it WILL sound different when you play it back. The LASER turntable won't put any wear on the record when you use it, and may be better at avoiding certain types of damage, but it can't repair damage to the record. (Whereas a CD player can actually FIX damaged data as long as the damage isn't too extensive, the turntable cannot.) Because the data is digital with a CD player, it is immune to rumble and surface noise; because the data is buffered, a properly designed CD player should also be TOTALLY immune to speed variations. In contrast, the turntable will still "hear" and play back rumble and other surface noise, and is totally sensitive to speed variation - although the job of running at a proper and steady speed is made easier for it than for an old-style turntable because there's nothing mechanically "dragging" on the surface of the record. Likewise, because the pickup tracks the shoulders of the groove, it should follow warped or otherwise imperfect record surfaces very well, but any variation in the shoulders of the groove (where the servo "rides") will still enter into the audio signal as "error" or "noise", and since this tracking is still done by an ANALOG servo, its ability to reject surface variations may be very good - but it isn't perfect. (A warped CD, as long as the LASER can follow the grooves, will play back PERFECTLY; the servo on the LASER turntable will greatly reduce the effects of warp and other similar problems, but it will not eliminate them 100%.) Scratch a CD with the edge of a knife blade, center to edge, and a CD player should still be able to play it back perfectly; do the same to a record and even the LASER turntable WILL hear a tick. So, while the LASER turntable will eliminate all colorations due to things like cartridge inductance and cartridge mechanical resonances, it can't eliminate colorations that were present in the mastering equipment; nor is it immune to wow, flutter, rumble, and any other mechanical resonances or colorations present in its platter and transport system (although it should be very good in regard to those). You could say their their LASER pickup is equivalent to a perfect CARTRIDGE - but it still rides on a mechanical turntable - which has limitations and imperfections. KeithL....except for the dust and debris issue, you just described a CD player. Oh, the irony. |
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Post by jmilton on Jun 27, 2014 14:09:58 GMT -5
My sincerest apologies.
You took me seriously. (I used the winky emoticon)
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Post by lionear on Jun 27, 2014 14:12:31 GMT -5
That LASER turntable (which I've heard of many times before - but never seen in person) sounds like an excellent idea. From their literature, it looks like it is very well thought out; they seem to have addressed all of the "issues" I can think of that might come up with doing things that way. It has the ability to track different levels of the groove to avoid damaged ones, is totally wear free from wear (it should also NOT cause permanent damage if you play a dusty record on it, since it won't push the dust into the surface), and a servo-tracking system should obviate rumble (the wow and flutter will be dependent on the physical accuracy of the rotating mechanism - which is probably very good - especially since, because there is no contact with the record while it's playing, there are no drag or other forces on the record). The only specific weakness I can see to how they do things is that they track the shoulder of the groove to position the read mechanism. This is unavoidable (you have to track something to establish position); however, this means that, if the groove is damaged up around the shoulder area, that damage will translate as noise on playback. (But all this means is that a small percentage of damaged records may play a tiny bit worse on it than on a normal turntable - but I suspect the percentage would be small.) There is only one possible real down-side that I can think of (besides price); a normal physical stylus is physical, so it has the ability to push small/light bits of dust and debris out of the way - like an itty bitty bulldozer. The LASER, being non-contact, will absolutely "play" any speck of fluff sitting on the record as if it were physically attached. I would expect that to make the LASER pickup much fussier about your record being absolutely clean. I think I can honestly say that, IF I was planning to buy a turntable, and IF I was willing to spend that much for one, then I would seriously consider that one. Assuming it lives up to claims, it appears to be about as close to perfect as you can get - in terms of reading a record as it should be read. ![lionear Avatar]() Once upon a time, the record labels came up with "CD-4" recordings. You had Left channel, Right channel, rear Left channel and rear Right channel - all on an LP. The CD-4 recording was played back with a normal stereo phono cartridge and with a special quadrophonic amp, you could decode all 4 channels. If you didn't have a CD-4 amp, you could still play a CD-4 LP - but you wouldn't get the rear channels. In order to get 4 channels into an LP, the rear channels were encoded on a carrier signal. In order not to affect the front Left and Right channels, this carrier signal had to be outside the audio band - it was (drum roll please).... 30 kHz. The entry in Wikipedia puts the highest frequency on a CD-4 LP at 45 kHz. All this was in the 1970's - and LP's, turntables, arms and cartridges are a lot better nowadays. All this technical stuff may explain the difference in the tonal balance of CD's vs LP's. Instruments on CD's sounds transposed down. On LP's, violins sound more real, and the better high frequency info helps render the soundstage a lot better. Alas, it does not live up to its claims. The Absolute Sound ran a review of it - and found that it rolled off the highs. And you're right about dust - it can be catastrophic to an amp stage, and needs heavy filtering/limiting circuitry. As far as wear is concerned, as long as you don't play an LP over and over again, non-stop, you're fine. Once upon a time, people tried to sell LP treatment liquids, like LAST. But they didn't catch on because they weren't really required - LP's age very well. By the way, there are some purists who would say that you should only play an LP (or CD) once - it's a musical event, like a live performance, never to be repeated. :-) |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jun 27, 2014 20:38:55 GMT -5
I did see a laser turntable at an audio show in NYC a number of years ago. The specs on the ELP Laser Turntable are here: ELP Laser Turntable. The only thing I remember about seeing one, was that I thought the price was rather steep, and that was at the show where I saw the MBL Radialstrahler. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jun 27, 2014 21:08:34 GMT -5
Not nearly ... A CD player is digital; it is playing back ones and zeros. Even if a CD gets worn or damaged, as long as all the ones and zeros remain intact, or there are few enough errors that the built-in error correction can correct them perfectly, it will always play back exactly the same. A CD player is totally immune to things like rumble and surface noise (within limits) because digital data doesn't care. (If a certain "1" happens to read as 1.032, or 0.963, digitally it's still "a perfect 1".) Also, since the data is buffered and re-clocked in basically ALL CD players, wow, flutter, and other speed variations are also completely eliminated. (The audio will be clocked at the correct rate, even if the data being read isn't.) my understanding of Binary code is it's '1's and '0's, on or off. |
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