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Post by audioguy123 on Jul 23, 2014 22:38:21 GMT -5
It doesn't matter anyway. A firmware fix is on the way.  That's the good news. But there has been no time frame related to that fix as near as I can tell. If it occurs in 90 days, awesome. If it takes much longer, not so awesome!! |
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Jul 23, 2014 23:10:58 GMT -5
Looks like a firmware update is in order to get a true dual mono out. I'm a little surprised this wasn't brought up during beta testing. A dual mono setup across the room isn't that uncommon amoung enthusiast. I'm not surprised. They asked only fans to beta test. If you want to get useful feedback then you have to ask people that are unbiased. Or at least ask people that have different biases. Everyone is biased. Beta testers did find several issues that have already been resolved. Fans are enthusiastic and want a perfect product. They do make a decent best test audience. Besides, asking people with different biases would mean they'd miss different things. The important thing is that Emotiva listened, and a fix is forthcoming. Unfans will say it's not soon enough or should have been there in the first place.  |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 2:26:29 GMT -5
I'm not surprised. They asked only fans to beta test. If you want to get useful feedback then you have to ask people that are unbiased. Or at least ask people that have different biases. Everyone is biased. Yes, everyone is biased but certain groups have the same biases. When testing a product you want to avoid that. Beta testers did find several issues that have already been resolved. Fans are enthusiastic and want a perfect product. They do make a decent best test audience. Besides, asking people with different biases would mean they'd miss different things. They also find different things. The important thing is that Emotiva listened, and a fix is forthcoming. Unfans will say it's not soon enough or should have been there in the first place. I don't care what unfans are saying as long as that new feature is coming. Would you mind keeping us informed when that firmware arrives or is there even a firmware change log somewhere? |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 2:35:45 GMT -5
The only people that have come forward are lounge members and employees. So it seems to be highly unlikely that anybody else did beta testing. It's very common to have fans do beta testing for marketing reasons. Of course, if someone wasn't a Lounge member, they wouldn't post about their experiences...on the Lounge. But elsewhere. I didn't find any reports elsewhere. Did you? And, if they weren't a fan, meh...why come forward at all? Some people just like to talk about gear. Some people run blogs and get payed by ads. |
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Jul 24, 2014 4:23:46 GMT -5
Would you mind keeping us informed when that firmware arrives or is there even a firmware change log somewhere? Just so you know, I don't work for Emotiva. I'm sure someone from Emotiva will advise us. Keep checking on the lounge. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 24, 2014 7:48:37 GMT -5
Of course, if someone wasn't a Lounge member, they wouldn't post about their experiences...on the Lounge. But elsewhere. I didn't find any reports elsewhere. Did you? And, if they weren't a fan, meh...why come forward at all? Some people just like to talk about gear. Some people run blogs and get payed by ads. You must be really really bored... |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2014 11:52:18 GMT -5
Oddly enough, people who aren't fans never seem interested in becoming beta testers.... Since we have plenty of fans, it seems pointless to pay people who aren't interested, so we can get them to test a product they aren't interested in.... This is especially true since, because they aren't interested, they're not very likely to give it a fair shot, or suddenly become converts. Fans are actually more likely to find bugs and other shortcomings, since they are "interested observers", rather than someone hoping to get through the test in time for dinner... Everyone is biased. Yes, everyone is biased but certain groups have the same biases. When testing a product you want to avoid that. Beta testers did find several issues that have already been resolved. Fans are enthusiastic and want a perfect product. They do make a decent best test audience. Besides, asking people with different biases would mean they'd miss different things. They also find different things. The important thing is that Emotiva listened, and a fix is forthcoming. Unfans will say it's not soon enough or should have been there in the first place. I don't care what unfans are saying as long as that new feature is coming. Would you mind keeping us informed when that firmware arrives or is there even a firmware change log somewhere? |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 13:01:35 GMT -5
Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? Oddly enough, people who aren't fans never seem interested in becoming beta testers.... Since we have plenty of fans, it seems pointless to pay people who aren't interested, so we can get them to test a product they aren't interested in.... This is especially true since, because they aren't interested, they're not very likely to give it a fair shot, or suddenly become converts. Fans are actually more likely to find bugs and other shortcomings, since they are "interested observers", rather than someone hoping to get through the test in time for dinner... Yes, everyone is biased but certain groups have the same biases. When testing a product you want to avoid that. They also find different things. I don't care what unfans are saying as long as that new feature is coming. Would you mind keeping us informed when that firmware arrives or is there even a firmware change log somewhere? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 24, 2014 13:20:24 GMT -5
Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? Oddly enough, people who aren't fans never seem interested in becoming beta testers.... Since we have plenty of fans, it seems pointless to pay people who aren't interested, so we can get them to test a product they aren't interested in.... This is especially true since, because they aren't interested, they're not very likely to give it a fair shot, or suddenly become converts. Fans are actually more likely to find bugs and other shortcomings, since they are "interested observers", rather than someone hoping to get through the test in time for dinner... I think someone who is a fan would be enthusiastic about beta testing a product that they were in fact interested in purchasing for themselves (and in the case of the XMC-1, one that was long awaited by many). Why would a fan be less likely to find bugs than a non-fan or "unfan?" They would just as likely to discover more bugs because they were enthusiastic about using the product and worked with it a lot. Perhaps they would be less likely to report such bugs in public but then an NDA would prevent them from doing so anyway. I would think they would want to report any bugs to Emotiva because (1) they have a vested interest in making sure it works right because they want to buy one themselves and probably had to pay for the unit in order to beta test it, and (2) since they are fans, they want Emo to look good and not release a buggy unit. Someone who is disinterested might be too apathetic to go through a proper testing process or figure some bugs they discovered were not worth reporting. And those who were "unfans" might even be so hostile as to not report any bugs, just to make Emo look bad later on when those bugs are not fixed. It all depends on the character of the people doing the testing and I feel that if they selected the mods, among others, they chose well. I believe our moderators have integrity. I'm sure Dan also chose people that he knew possessed the knowledge and integrity to do a proper evaluation of the product. After all this time and all the criticism leveled at Emo, it seems to me he would insure that the testing was done the right way. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2014 13:36:02 GMT -5
Exactly..... "Neutral" testing works for simple products and quick results. Several years ago, when I lived in NY, our local mall was home to a place called, I believe, "Quick Test". They would, literally, approach you in the mall and offer you $10, or a free dinner, to try a new soda, or watch a five minute trailer for a new movie and answer a few questions about it. This sort of thing worked for them because it was looking for quick answers to quick questions... (Questions like: Which soda did you prefer? or: After seeing the trailer, what do you think the movie is about?) With a complex product like the XMC-1, you're only going to have VALID comments (good or bad) if you're willing to spend a little time with it. If you're a fan, then you're going to see this as "playing with a new toy"; if you're not a fan, then you're going to see it as "work"... and both of those include a bias. Besides which, this is a beta test, and we're trying to learn how well our product works and how well it fits in with our customers' needs.... this is quite different than the A/B test you might use to compare two products before buying one of them. We're looking for information - so there is no context of "fairness" or "neutrality" involved. Sure, it would have been interesting to get a few non-Emo-fan audio enthusiasts to test one, just to hear what they had to say, but frankly it would have been a lot more work for us, and we had a long line of our friends just dying to be beta testers....... Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? I think someone who is a fan would be enthusiastic about beta testing a product that they were in fact interested in purchasing for themselves (and in the case of the XMC-1, one that was long awaited by many). Why would a fan be less likely to find bugs than a non-fan or "unfan?" They would just as likely to discover more bugs because they were enthusiastic about using the product and worked with it a lot. Perhaps they would be less likely to report such bugs in public but then an NDA would prevent them from doing so anyway. I would think they would want to report any bugs to Emotiva because (1) they have a vested interest in making sure it works right because they want to buy one themselves and probably had to pay for the unit in order to beta test it, and (2) since they are fans, they want Emo to look good and not release a buggy unit. Someone who is disinterested might be too apathetic to go through a proper testing process or figure some bugs they discovered were not worth reporting. And those who were "unfans" might even be so hostile as to not report any bugs, just to make Emo look bad later on when those bugs are not fixed. It all depends on the character of the people doing the testing and I feel that if they selected the mods, among others, they chose well. I believe our moderators have integrity. I'm sure Dan also chose people that he knew possessed the knowledge and integrity to do a proper evaluation of the product. After all this time and all the criticism leveled at Emo, it seems to me he would insure that the testing was done the right way. |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 13:40:06 GMT -5
Guess in a world that is only black and white, what you say might be true. Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? I think someone who is a fan would be enthusiastic about beta testing a product that they were in fact interested in purchasing for themselves (and in the case of the XMC-1, one that was long awaited by many). Why would a fan be less likely to find bugs than a non-fan or "unfan?" They would just as likely to discover more bugs because they were enthusiastic about using the product and worked with it a lot. Perhaps they would be less likely to report such bugs in public but then an NDA would prevent them from doing so anyway. I would think they would want to report any bugs to Emotiva because (1) they have a vested interest in making sure it works right because they want to buy one themselves and probably had to pay for the unit in order to beta test it, and (2) since they are fans, they want Emo to look good and not release a buggy unit. Someone who is disinterested might be too apathetic to go through a proper testing process or figure some bugs they discovered were not worth reporting. And those who were "unfans" might even be so hostile as to not report any bugs, just to make Emo look bad later on when those bugs are not fixed. It all depends on the character of the people doing the testing and I feel that if they selected the mods, among others, they chose well. I believe our moderators have integrity. I'm sure Dan also chose people that he knew possessed the knowledge and integrity to do a proper evaluation of the product. After all this time and all the criticism leveled at Emo, it seems to me he would insure that the testing was done the right way. |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 13:44:04 GMT -5
Obviously my point didn't come across. There are different types of fans, e.g. fans of Emotiva and fans of AV gear in general. You picked only Emotiva fans. Exactly..... "Neutral" testing works for simple products and quick results. Several years ago, when I lived in NY, our local mall was home to a place called, I believe, "Quick Test". They would, literally, approach you in the mall and offer you $10, or a free dinner, to try a new soda, or watch a five minute trailer for a new movie and answer a few questions about it. This sort of thing worked for them because it was looking for quick answers to quick questions... (Questions like: Which soda did you prefer? or: After seeing the trailer, what do you think the movie is about?) With a complex product like the XMC-1, you're only going to have VALID comments (good or bad) if you're willing to spend a little time with it. If you're a fan, then you're going to see this as "playing with a new toy"; if you're not a fan, then you're going to see it as "work"... and both of those include a bias. Besides which, this is a beta test, and we're trying to learn how well our product works and how well it fits in with our customers' needs.... this is quite different than the A/B test you might use to compare two products before buying one of them. We're looking for information - so there is no context of "fairness" or "neutrality" involved. Sure, it would have been interesting to get a few non-Emo-fan audio enthusiasts to test one, just to hear what they had to say, but frankly it would have been a lot more work for us, and we had a long line of our friends just dying to be beta testers....... I think someone who is a fan would be enthusiastic about beta testing a product that they were in fact interested in purchasing for themselves (and in the case of the XMC-1, one that was long awaited by many). Why would a fan be less likely to find bugs than a non-fan or "unfan?" They would just as likely to discover more bugs because they were enthusiastic about using the product and worked with it a lot. Perhaps they would be less likely to report such bugs in public but then an NDA would prevent them from doing so anyway. I would think they would want to report any bugs to Emotiva because (1) they have a vested interest in making sure it works right because they want to buy one themselves and probably had to pay for the unit in order to beta test it, and (2) since they are fans, they want Emo to look good and not release a buggy unit. Someone who is disinterested might be too apathetic to go through a proper testing process or figure some bugs they discovered were not worth reporting. And those who were "unfans" might even be so hostile as to not report any bugs, just to make Emo look bad later on when those bugs are not fixed. It all depends on the character of the people doing the testing and I feel that if they selected the mods, among others, they chose well. I believe our moderators have integrity. I'm sure Dan also chose people that he knew possessed the knowledge and integrity to do a proper evaluation of the product. After all this time and all the criticism leveled at Emo, it seems to me he would insure that the testing was done the right way. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 24, 2014 13:51:45 GMT -5
Obviously my point didn't come across. There are different types of fans, e.g. fans of Emotiva and fans of AV gear in general. You picked only Emotiva fans. Exactly..... "Neutral" testing works for simple products and quick results. Several years ago, when I lived in NY, our local mall was home to a place called, I believe, "Quick Test". They would, literally, approach you in the mall and offer you $10, or a free dinner, to try a new soda, or watch a five minute trailer for a new movie and answer a few questions about it. This sort of thing worked for them because it was looking for quick answers to quick questions... (Questions like: Which soda did you prefer? or: After seeing the trailer, what do you think the movie is about?) With a complex product like the XMC-1, you're only going to have VALID comments (good or bad) if you're willing to spend a little time with it. If you're a fan, then you're going to see this as "playing with a new toy"; if you're not a fan, then you're going to see it as "work"... and both of those include a bias. Besides which, this is a beta test, and we're trying to learn how well our product works and how well it fits in with our customers' needs.... this is quite different than the A/B test you might use to compare two products before buying one of them. We're looking for information - so there is no context of "fairness" or "neutrality" involved. Sure, it would have been interesting to get a few non-Emo-fan audio enthusiasts to test one, just to hear what they had to say, but frankly it would have been a lot more work for us, and we had a long line of our friends just dying to be beta testers....... Being a fan of Emotiva and a fan of AV gear in general are not mutually exclusive categories. We do not know if they picked "only" Emotiva fans. Regardless, they chose whom they chose and practically speaking, it seems to have worked out very well. In my opinion, based on what I've read so far, the beta testing can be deemed successful. And isn't that really the goal of beta testing? |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 13:56:45 GMT -5
Beta testing has "worked out very well"? "And you know that for a fact? " Obviously my point didn't come across. There are different types of fans, e.g. fans of Emotiva and fans of AV gear in general. You picked only Emotiva fans. Being a fan of Emotiva and a fan of AV gear in general are not mutually exclusive categories. We do not know if they picked "only" Emotiva fans. Regardless, they chose whom they chose and practically speaking, it seems to have worked out very well. In my opinion, based on what I've read so far, the beta testing can be deemed successful. And isn't that really the goal of beta testing? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 24, 2014 13:58:19 GMT -5
Beta testing has "worked out very well"? "And you know that for a fact? " Being a fan of Emotiva and a fan of AV gear in general are not mutually exclusive categories. We do not know if they picked "only" Emotiva fans. Regardless, they chose whom they chose and practically speaking, it seems to have worked out very well. In my opinion, based on what I've read so far, the beta testing can be deemed successful. And isn't that really the goal of beta testing? Haha... notice I said it was my opinion. Only time will tell if in fact all the bugs were caught. I was speaking only from what I have seen so far, and, in my opinion.  |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 24, 2014 14:07:12 GMT -5
Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? Oddly enough, people who aren't fans never seem interested in becoming beta testers.... Since we have plenty of fans, it seems pointless to pay people who aren't interested, so we can get them to test a product they aren't interested in.... This is especially true since, because they aren't interested, they're not very likely to give it a fair shot, or suddenly become converts. Fans are actually more likely to find bugs and other shortcomings, since they are "interested observers", rather than someone hoping to get through the test in time for dinner... Our process of Beta testing is very simple and straight forward. We do all the base line testing in house as a first step. Then units are shipped out for third party testing by trained engineers who have worked in the audio industry for more years than they will even admit. These guys will generate hard core data far beyond what a consumer is capable of doing and will find pretty much anything we might have missed. After that, the units then go out to trusted "Fans" for their evaluation and once all the data is compiled and the bugs fixed, it is then released to the public. This is a very solid process that will find pretty much any errors in the system. Lonnie |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 24, 2014 14:09:41 GMT -5
Obviously my point didn't come across. There are different types of fans, e.g. fans of Emotiva and fans of AV gear in general. You picked only Emotiva fans. Exactly..... "Neutral" testing works for simple products and quick results. Several years ago, when I lived in NY, our local mall was home to a place called, I believe, "Quick Test". They would, literally, approach you in the mall and offer you $10, or a free dinner, to try a new soda, or watch a five minute trailer for a new movie and answer a few questions about it. This sort of thing worked for them because it was looking for quick answers to quick questions... (Questions like: Which soda did you prefer? or: After seeing the trailer, what do you think the movie is about?) With a complex product like the XMC-1, you're only going to have VALID comments (good or bad) if you're willing to spend a little time with it. If you're a fan, then you're going to see this as "playing with a new toy"; if you're not a fan, then you're going to see it as "work"... and both of those include a bias. Besides which, this is a beta test, and we're trying to learn how well our product works and how well it fits in with our customers' needs.... this is quite different than the A/B test you might use to compare two products before buying one of them. We're looking for information - so there is no context of "fairness" or "neutrality" involved. Sure, it would have been interesting to get a few non-Emo-fan audio enthusiasts to test one, just to hear what they had to say, but frankly it would have been a lot more work for us, and we had a long line of our friends just dying to be beta testers....... Not true. We paid an independent engineering firm to vet out the unit as well. Lonnie |
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Post by urwi on Jul 24, 2014 14:12:31 GMT -5
Did you go though that process for the UMC-1 too? Did you ever reach out to people that are not Emotiva fans but generally AV enthusiasts? I'm pretty sure there a lots of knowledgable people out there that would have participated in beta testing without any financial compensation. I would have participated in beta testing but somehow I never got to know where to sign up... Regarding giving the device a fair shot, don't you think someone that is no fan or even an unfan is more likely to find potential bugs? And finding bugs is the main reason for beta testing, don't you agree? Our process of Beta testing is very simple and straight forward. We do all the base line testing in house as a first step. Then units are shipped out for third party testing by trained engineers who have worked in the audio industry for more years than they will even admit. These guys will generate hard core data far beyond what a consumer is capable of doing and will find pretty much anything we might have missed. After that, the units then go out to trusted "Fans" for their evaluation and once all the data is compiled and the bugs fixed, it is then released to the public. This is a very solid process that will find pretty much any errors in the system. Lonnie |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 24, 2014 14:14:40 GMT -5
Beta testing has "worked out very well"? "And you know that for a fact? " Being a fan of Emotiva and a fan of AV gear in general are not mutually exclusive categories. We do not know if they picked "only" Emotiva fans. Regardless, they chose whom they chose and practically speaking, it seems to have worked out very well. In my opinion, based on what I've read so far, the beta testing can be deemed successful. And isn't that really the goal of beta testing? I suppose I could ask the opposite question to you. How has it not proven to be successful? I'm not saying a bug won't show up here or there, but from the feedback so far, I have not seen anything. Am I missing something here? Lonnie |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 24, 2014 14:15:34 GMT -5
Did you go though that process for the UMC-1 too? Our process of Beta testing is very simple and straight forward. We do all the base line testing in house as a first step. Then units are shipped out for third party testing by trained engineers who have worked in the audio industry for more years than they will even admit. These guys will generate hard core data far beyond what a consumer is capable of doing and will find pretty much anything we might have missed. After that, the units then go out to trusted "Fans" for their evaluation and once all the data is compiled and the bugs fixed, it is then released to the public. This is a very solid process that will find pretty much any errors in the system. Lonnie No and that is why we started the process. We wanted to be as careful and objective as possible. Lonnie |
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