Amplifiers/Surge Protectors

[bluemeanies]

I would appreciate some input on this matter of surge protectors relating to amplifiers. I have this ongoing conversation with a friend of mine who was told to plug his Integra DTA 70.1 amplifier into a surge protector.
My three amplifiers are plugged directly into the wall outlet.
A month ago his Integra stopped working. It was sent back to the factory and he was sent back a reconditioned amplifier. His orginal unit was not even a year old. Once he received the amplfier he immediatly connected into his Integra DHC 80.3. The unthinkable happened ....it was not working. That too was shipped back to the factory. The high end audio and video store recommended that he purchase a surge protector and informed him that they believed he had experience a surge and was not prepared.

Personnly I do to believe it. I have had a dedicated HT for 15 years and not once with all of the storms that have been in our area did I experience a surge that would damage both processor and amplifier. My friend and I only live a couple of miles apart.
My neighbor's house across the street was hit directly by lighting, shorting out every appliance and TV in the house and I did not have a signal circuit breaker trip.
I have had 2channel stereo since the sixties and never had a surge protection issue.

I believe the the malfunctions of the Integra were faulty from the time it left the factory.

So what are the chances that these Integra units were caused by a surge of power?

[Gary Cook]

Like you I've had hifi gear since the 70's and never had surge protectors. I have tried them and until you get to the extremely high power rating models they limit the dynamic range of power amplifiers. Plus decent hifi gear since the 80's has had power supplies than handle multiple voltages and power surges. I'm not familiar with Integra gear but I'd be very surprised if it isn't similarly equipped.


Cheers
Gary

[bluemeanies]

Thanks Gary, I really thought I would be reading more responses about this issue.
Please do not get me wrong I appreciate your input and agree wholeheartly.

I myself do have a line conditioner but all of my amplifiers are connected directly into wall outlets. I have a 6' grounding rod in the ground and all outlets are grounded. At least all of the outlets in my dedicated listening room. LOL. I feel over the years that my investment into the Furman was money NOT WELL SPENT. I did at one time plug my Outlaw 7700 into the Furman and I was getting a ground loop. Same thing when I plugged my Mitsubishi projector into the Furman. Like I mentioned before there has never been a problem with surge protection in my area where I live nor in my system.
I half way think the the market manufacture snake oil when it comes to this device and it's usage in the Home Theater, 2 channel listening.
Come to think of it ( I can't be 100% certain) but the last couple of audio shows I have been to I do not recall them using surge protectors or line conditioners.

[Boomzilla]

In theory, surges & dips can cause damage to electronics. Back in the '60s and '70s, manufacturers didn't give much thought to the quality of their products' immunity to power line variations. Therefore, for "antique" products, a surge suppressor may be cheap insurance. Any more, surge suppression is inexpensive, and almost all electronics (even the cheapest) are built with some surge protection or are otherwise designed to be surge-resistant.

Therefore, IMHO, there is no particular need for power conditioners with modern electronics. If the voltage surge is high enough to damage your electronics, then it's unlikely that a consumer-grade suppressor would have prevented the damage.

With the greater number of household electrical devices, however, the likelihood of line noise is significantly increased. Fortunately, modern audio gear is typically designed with noise suppression built in. Therefore, "power conditioners" are unneeded for this malady as well.

I believe that your neighbor's problems with his Onkyo gear are due to factory defects, not power line problems. If his power was that poor, other household appliances would also exhibit high failure rates.

Some electronics (my old Rogue Audio Magnum 88 tube integrated amp, for example) exhibited noise and hum when a surge suppressor was between it and the wall. Therefore, it is true to say that some electronics don't like surge suppressors.

For the vast majority of homes, surge suppressors, power conditioners, etc. are unnecessary. They probably don't do any damage, though, unless you have an unusually sensitive component. Therefore, I consider them optional. I use conditioners (and UPS backup) for my home computers & external HDDs, but not usually with my audio components. In decades of audio, I've never had a single component failure attributable to power issues.

Boomzilla

[cwmcobra]

Any downside to using whole house suppressors in terms of impact to noise/audio quality?

[hemster]

Aug 5, 2014 6:57:13 GMT -5 cwmcobra said:

Any downside to using whole house suppressors in terms of impact to noise/audio quality?

You may find this an interesting read. link

[Priapulus]

> For the vast majority of homes, surge suppressors, power conditioners, etc. are unnecessary.

I disagree. I believe that most damage to electronics is from spikes and surges on the power line. And because surge protection is so cheap (e.g. $40 for Panamax) it's foolish not to have it. I do consider expensive "Power Conditioners" to be unnecessary, even a scam; modern electronics is well filtered for line noise.

I put a whole house surge protector (Home Hardware, Eaton model $100), on the main panel. Then I have Panamax surge protectors right at the HT and Stereo system. Exception are the power amplifiers; EMO recommends they be plugged directly into the wall, as they have built-in protection, and some surge protectors can give them problems (sudden surges in music, demand surges in amplifier power, that some surge protectors impede).

Home surge protection is not intended to protect from direct lightning strikes; that's what fire insurance is for... Surge protection is for all the everyday spikes and glitches: motors switching on, neighbor arc welding in his garage, lightning hitting the wire five miles away, car crashing into a pole and sparking the wires together, utility switching, your air conditioner switching on...

As a bonus, by plugging all your gear into the same surge power bar, you have a common grounding point, reducing ground loops.

Finally, though similar prices; not all surge protectors are equally good, some are junk. Get a reputable brand Like a Panamax, $40.

Dubious? Consider cell towers, that are like giant lightning magnets; constantly being directly hit. But the cell electronics remain undamaged, because of the effectiveness of proper surge protection, common point grounding, faraday caging, etc. If the technology didn't work, the cell companies would be out of business.

Sincerely
/b

[KeithL]

Unfortunately, this is a very complicated subject... and there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about this subject   so I'll just throw in a few "summary points".
(The article in the link is also quite informative - and probably worth reading FIRST.)

First, nothing you're going to want to install in your house will "stop" a direct major lightning strike. A solid strike can blow a foot round hole in a cinderblock wall.... and to absorb that requires heavy duty lightning arrestors, fat ground wires, and big metal rods driven deep into the ground. In general, the sort of thing you're going to install in your home is more of a mitigating device. (A direct strike will vaporize your little six foot by 1/2" stake and the 8 gauge wire attached to it - but, at least hopefully, as it burns it will guide the strike to the ground along the wall so it won't decide to go through your living room.)

Luckily, you're very unlikely to take that sort of hit. The power lines in most areas already have heavy duty protection to protect the system from most direct strikes. Because of the power involved, these systems are usually made up of a combination of fuses, breakers, and lightning arrestors (which selectively shunt current to ground). Also, while they would like to stop anything damaging, their main focus is on protecting mains equipment and preventing your house from burning down. As in everything, it's a compromise between how often the lights go off on your block, and how much risk of damage there is. The point here is that these "big systems" will cheerfully allow a spike up to a few hundred volts through before they act.

The whole point of a home surge protector is to "catch" the "little stuff" that the power company lets through or that comes from some place "closer to home". This may include small spikes generated inside your house (like from your air conditioner), spikes from your neighbor's air conditioner, and the small surges that "leak through" the heavy duty stuff when a strike does happen.

Your "120 VAC" electrical system carries an AC sine wave, with an RMS value of 120 V; the actual instantaneous voltage goes between about -170 V and + 170 V (usually termed "170 volts peak"). Most typical home surge protectors allow between about 300 V and 600 V to pass before "blocking surges". Equipment that can't tolerate these voltages, at least occasionally, will probably eventually fail (or blow a fuse). At this point we should note that most well designed equipment (including ours) should be designed to withstand occasional surges up to a few hundred volts.

The article mentioned "sacrificial" surge protectors and "series" surge protectors....... here's what you need to know there.

A sacrificial surge protector is simply one where the surge protector shorts surges to ground using parts that "wear out". Because such huge amounts of power are involved, it is complicated to design a part that can consistently and reliably short huge surges to ground. They tend to be big and expensive (often involving carborundum granules or xenon gas). It turns out to be much cheaper to use a little device called an "MOV" (short for metal oxide varistor). A cheap little MOV can shunt a truly horrific amount of current, but they eventually fail. (This is why your $40 surge suppressor has an indicator light; it will tell you when the MOVs it uses have "worn out" and the unit should be replaced. The MOVs will often shatter to dust when absorbing a major surge - but they will have done their job.) Bear in mind that, in most areas, huge surges are quite rare. I've used surge suppressors for over thirty years, and haven't had one get "burned up" yet.... but you're certainly better off getting one that has a light to tell you when and if it happens. These types of surge suppressors are generally attached IN PARELLEL with the line. They sit ACROSS the line, and only act to short out excessive voltage spikes. Since they aren't in series with the line, they don't limit current flow, and it should be just fine to connect a power amp to one of them (a "basic" MOV surge protector)... but keep reading.

The article also mentioned SERIES surge suppressors. These sit in series with your equipment, and BLOCK surges - rather than short them to ground. Series surge suppressors, since they don't have to actually absorb the excess energy, can withstand frequent large surges, and generally are NOT sacrificial (they don't "wear out"). They also work well in areas where there are frequent surges, and so sacrificial surge suppressors end up getting replaced often. ***HOWEVER***, because a series surge suppressor DOES sit in line with your equipment, it can and often WILL restrict current flow. Therefore, while they work great, and are fine for use with things like preamps and pre/pros, series surge protectors may NOT be acceptable for use with power amps and other items that draw heavy current.  

Incidentally, surge suppressors are designed to PROTECT equipment; they do not and should not affect the way it sounds - at all. (A surge suppressor is really a fancy switch that cuts off surges from reaching your equipment. When there's no surge, it shouldn't do anything.)

Now we get to another device entirely: a LINE CONDITIONER or FILTER. (Part of the confusion arises because many devices combine a surge suppressor and a line filter.) A line filter is specifically a device that blocks high frequency noise from reaching your equipment. Quite simply, your equipment runs on 60 Hz (or 50 Hz in Europe and some other places) AC current. The power supply in your equipment then turns this into the voltages it needs. However, there is all sorts of electrical noise on your power lines.... from noise spikes when your air conditioner switches off to leakage from your cordless phone and your neighbor's lawnmower. Depending on how good the power supplies in your various components are, some of this noise may leak through and "contaminate" your audio signal. A line filter simply sits in the power line and does its best to eliminate this electrical noise (thus helping your equipment's power supply do its job better). Most line filters, especially the ones you find in $50 power conditioners, are relatively benign. They use a combination of small-value coils in series with the signal and capacitors in parallel to filter very high frequencies without doing much else. Although some few line filters (especially "fancy" ones) may restrict current flow, most don't do so to any significant degree. (A surge suppressor plus line filter rated 15 or 20 amps should be fine to connect your power amp to.)

Whether a line filter will affect the way your system sounds will depend simply on whether you're hearing annoying noises before you connect it. If you're hearing little "birdies" and "scritches" during the quiet parts of the music, or ticks when your air conditioner goes on and off, or certain other forms of distortion, then adding a line filter may entirely eliminate them. If your backgrounds are dead silent, and you don't hear funny noises, then there's probably nothing to fix. Although it is possible that noise you don't hear might be causing some sort of distortion that you DO hear, you usually shouldn't expect an improvement in sound quality with a line filter unless there's an actual nose problem that needs fixing. That said, a typical $50 surge suppressor probably includes a line filter anyway, and they rarely make anything worse, so why not?

There's one more thing we didn't talk about.... what if your line voltage doesn't stay at 120 VAC, but bounces up and down? This can happen when heavy appliances in your home "pull down" a circuit when they turn on, and when the voltage supplying your entire neighborhood basically does the same thing (like when it's hot and everyone runs their air conditioner). There are several different ways of adjusting voltage. You can completely "regenerate" the power; devices to do that tend to be large and very expensive, and most  of them still limit current (they simply have a limited capacity - which may not be enough to run a big power amp). Ones big enough to run a huge power amp are even bigger and MORE expensive. You can switch a small transformer winding in series with the line (this used to be popular); unfortunately, these devices tend to make serious line noise and power spikes of their own, and can still limit current flow. They're probably OK for incandescent lamps and such, but not very good for sensitive electronics. You also occasionally still see "saturation transformers"; these are special transformers designed to "self limit" their output voltage. Unfortunately, they tend to be big, expensive, inefficient, and also (again) often limit current flow. Of course, whether you would even want something like this depends on how stable the line voltage is in your area, and how fussy your particular equipment happens to be. (Again, if you don't have a problem, then don't fix it. If you don't notice your lights dimming when your dishwasher comes on, then you probably don't have a problem.)

My conclusion would be that, unless you know that you have specific problems to address, it always makes sense to use a relatively simple surge suppressor and line filter from a reputable manufacturer. Our CMX-1 and CMX-2 are quite nice, look cool, and will also do an excellent job (they cost a little more, but are aesthetically much nicer). Lower cost units from reputable companies like APC and Belkin work well (for about $50). Avoid "no name" units, and "outlet strips" that don't actually include surge suppressors. And be careful of super-expensive "audiophile power conditioners", many of which are based on dubious science, and have just the slightest reek of snake oil about them. Also, note that, if you have a noise problem, a line filter might help make it go away, but you shouldn't otherwise expect to hear a "mystical improvement in sound quality" by using one.

Finally, a lot of this depends on the geography of your neighborhood. Some areas are prone to frequent power surges, brownouts, and line noise - while others never seem to have problems - so do a little research. (But DON'T spend lots of money to eliminate problems that you don't have - especially when the solutions can themselves cause other new problems.)

Aug 5, 2014 7:06:41 GMT -5 hemster said:

Aug 5, 2014 6:57:13 GMT -5 cwmcobra said:

Any downside to using whole house suppressors in terms of impact to noise/audio quality?

You may find this an interesting read. link

[hemster]

Aug 5, 2014 11:29:33 GMT -5 KeithL said:

...That said, a typical $50 surge suppressor probably includes a line filter anyway, and they rarely make anything worse, so why not?

...Finally, a lot of this depends on the geography of your neighborhood. Some areas are prone to frequent power surges, brownouts, and line noise - while others never seem to have problems - so do a little research. (But DON'T spend lots of money to eliminate problems that you don't have - especially when the solutions can themselves cause other new problems.)

^I agree. There's much marketing of "point-of-entry" type surge protection but this is not a panacea. 

I happen to live in the lightning capital of the world(..really!) so I use an APC-H15 for my gear. Elsewhere in the house, a couple of CMXs provide peace of mind. I did have a TrippLite unit but it kept on flickering the power light on the unit. So now that's gone. 

[aud]

I've been using Zero Surge products for 10 years now. In this world there are chances, luck and the laws of probability. When it came to electronics I mostly had bad luck. I've lived through brown outs, sub station circuit breakers opening and closing during storms, AND SMALL TRANSIENT VOLTAGES that Keith mentioned. I had a number of electronic components breaking down.

This started my research regarding surge suppression. Because of this research and experimentation I currently have eight Zero Surge 15 amp point of protection devices and two 20 amp devices. The 15 amp devices protect my computers and 15 amp audio components. The two 20 AMP DEVICES protect my XPR-1s.

Let's talk about my two XPR-1s. During critical listening I can't discern any difference in the capabilities of audio reproduction of the XPR-1s between using the ZS 20 amp suppressors and not using them. Dynamics, audio transients, speed, deep bass etc, is never compromised.

The biggest thing that has been limited since using these protectors is my stress level.

Over this 10 year period I've had some bad power company and in house events with no resulting bad electronic component events.

All I'm doing here, is sharing my experiences with good series mode surge suppressors.

SurgeX, BrickWall and now Bryston use this technology.

[westom]

Aug 5, 2014 6:57:13 GMT -5 cwmcobra said:
Any downside to using whole house suppressors in terms of impact to noise/audio quality?


None. That should be obvious if one understands what a surge protector does. For example, it does not filter or condition power. In fact, a 120 volt surge p;rotector does nothing (connects electricity direct to the appliance) if voltage remain below 330 volts. Noise (conditioning) is mostly about single digit and tens digit variations. Nothing even near to 330 volts. Find a 330 volt number on each proetctor box.

Effective protectors never stop or block a surge. To be effective, it must have a low imepdance (ei 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Earth is where energy is harmlessly absorbed. Plug-in protectors obviously do not have that, will not discuss it, and do not claim to protect from a destructive type of surge. Two completely different devices; both called surge protectors. Those who do not know the difference assume inferior protection in a power strip is similar to robust protection provided by an earthed 'whole house' protector. Only the latter makes destructive surges (ie hundreds of thousands of joujles) irrelevant.

Any facility that cannot have lightning damage uses a 'whole house' solution. Lightning damage so routinely averted that damage is regarded as a human created mistake. Your telco's switching station suffers about 100 surges with each strom. How often is your town without phones for four days while they replace that computer? Never? Exactly. Because protection from direct lightning strikes is routine if using a much less expensive 'whole house' solution. And nearly impossible if using more expensviepower strips. In fact, power strips even need to be protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. And can sometimes make appliance damage easier. Just another reason why Panamax is mostly hyped by advertising and hearsay. And does not claim full protection in their numeric specs.

[westom]

Aug 5, 2014 20:16:09 GMT -5 aud said:

I currently have eight Zero Surge 15 amp point of protection devices and two 20 amp devices.

How does that Zero Surge stop, block, or absorb what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does it absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? If it does, then we can routinely tap and store lightning to power all appliances.

Any protector that somehow blocks surges is for surges that are already made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. If you needed protection for any appliance, then you needed it for all including the dishwasher, furnance, bathroom GFCIs, smoke detectors, clocks, air conditioner, and refrigerator. What protects them?

Once we apply numbers to Zerosurge claims, it absorb maybe less than 1000 joules. That is a near zero surge. In fact many electonics simply consume something that tiny as power for its semiconductors. Your concern is a rare and destructive surge that can owverwhelm protection already inside appliances. And can blow through or even bypass a Zerosurge.

If a Zerosurge really solved something, than all those other appliances and even CFL bulbs are still being destroyed by surges. Zerosurge is not used in facilities that cannot have surge damage. But a well proven,properly earthed, and tens of times less expensive 'whole house' solution is.

[KeithL]

OK - nice "technology takedown" - except that it isn't technically CORRECT.

From their product description, it is quite clear that Zero Surge products are SERIES SURGE BLOCKING FILTERS (they even say so on the spec sheet).

While a "normal" surge suppressor shunts surges to ground, and so must in some fashion dissipate a lot of power, this type of device BLOCKS most of the surge - and then finally shorts the small remaining surge that it hasn't blocked to ground. The series element operates in such a way as to block the current from entering to begin with, and so doesn't need to dissipate it. I haven't see a schematic of their particular implementation, but these typically include a SERIES inductor, followed by one or more capacitors in parallel. Since it doesn't have to actually absorb the surge, it's "capacity" in that regard is virtually unlimited. (It's sort of like how your little plastic hose nozzle can "hold back" all the billions of gallons of water in a reservoir when you shut it off.)

You have to understand that, technically, a surge is VOLTAGE... and voltage then drives current.... also realize that most surges actually last for a very small fraction of a second.

Here's what actually happens when you get a lightning strike.... (lightning delivers a super high voltage - backed by a capacity for a lot of current).....

The lightning strike "dumps" a huge amount of current into the electrical grid. As this current drains to ground through the system, the voltage drop caused by the current spike as it drains to ground forces the line voltage to spike up for a split second. This is the "surge" you see in your home; and this voltage surge then drives significant current to drain through YOUR house and equipment. A "normal" surge suppressor works by basically shorting your power lines to ground (but only above a certain threshold voltage). In order to do this, it must short a lot of current to ground to "pull" the voltage back down. In contrast, a series surge suppressor blocks the voltage from coming in to begin with. (Instead of doing nothing most of the time, then dumping a huge amount of current for a split second  - like a normal suppressor does, a series suppressor carries your normal line current ALL of the time, and occasionally blocks a rather large amount of VOLTAGE for a split second. The MOVs used in typical suppressors to dump that current wear out and eventually fail; the inductors used in series suppressors basically last forever and don't deteriorate with use... but the inductors are bigger, heavier, and more expensive to begin with.) The current dumped into the system by the strike has to go somewhere - and is presumably dumped to ground through the power company's lightning arrestors and such - but that's not your concern because it is blocked from entering YOUR power circuits or equipment.

IN SHORT, THESE DEVICES DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY. (However, the test results can be somewhat misleading. The series suppressor doesn't "dissipate" that bazillion joule surge.... it simply turns it away... and, just like your plastic hose nozzle can "turn away" an entire reservoir, this isn't all that difficult to do. The test protocol requires that you "apply" the surge to the suppressor - the suppressor gets to choose whether to try and dissipate it or simply not let it enter; either way protects the equipment on the other side of the suppressor.) If you look at the "joule rating" on their spec sheet, it says "not applicable" - because, as I said, they DON'T dissipate the surge current, they simply fail to allow it through. You'll also note that they rate "load regulation" at "1%". This spec reflects the way in which they "restrict" the current available to your device. (A 1% drop at 10 Amps works out to being about equivalent to putting a 0.1 ohm resistor in series with the line. A typical home circuit will "lose" two or three volts when you apply a 10 Amp load - due to resistance losses in the wiring and your circuit breakers; adding one of these will cost you an extra volt.)

There are only two "downsides" to these devices....

1) They tend to be somewhat large, heavy, and expensive - while MOVs are really cheap (so, maybe $200 or $300 for one of these, vs $50 for an MOV-based one).
2) They do somewhat restrict the current available to the device (they raise the source impedance of the power supply).

Another benefit, however, is that the series inductors work very well as noise filters.

Assuming that these meet their spec, they should work well and be quite effective.... (as with any device, you want to make sure and buy one with sufficient capacity for your equipment).
(Incidentally, I own two similar series surge suppressors made by a company called Brick Wall, and they do indeed work quite well.) 

** Incidentally, these devices are intended to stop FAST, SHORT TERM power spikes - of the type caused by a lightning strike. They will not, and are not intended to, do anything about excessively high or low line voltage.



 

Aug 6, 2014 10:18:38 GMT -5 westom said:

Aug 5, 2014 20:16:09 GMT -5 aud said:

I currently have eight Zero Surge 15 amp point of protection devices and two 20 amp devices.

How does that Zero Surge stop, block, or absorb what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does it absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? If it does, then we can routinely tap and store lightning to power all appliances.

Any protector that somehow blocks surges is for surges that are already made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. If you needed protection for any appliance, then you needed it for all including the dishwasher, furnance, bathroom GFCIs, smoke detectors, clocks, air conditioner, and refrigerator. What protects them?

Once we apply numbers to Zerosurge claims, it absorb maybe less than 1000 joules. That is a near zero surge. In fact many electonics simply consume something that tiny as power for its semiconductors. Your concern is a rare and destructive surge that can owverwhelm protection already inside appliances. And can blow through or even bypass a Zerosurge.

If a Zerosurge really solved something, than all those other appliances and even CFL bulbs are still being destroyed by surges. Zerosurge is not used in facilities that cannot have surge damage. But a well proven,properly earthed, and tens of times less expensive 'whole house' solution is.

[Bonzo]

Aug 5, 2014 11:29:33 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Now we get to another device entirely: a LINE CONDITIONER or FILTER. (Part of the confusion arises because many devices combine a surge suppressor and a line filter.) A line filter is specifically a device that blocks high frequency noise from reaching your equipment. Quite simply, your equipment runs on 60 Hz (or 50 Hz in Europe and some other places) AC current. The power supply in your equipment then turns this into the voltages it needs. However, there is all sorts of electrical noise on your power lines.... from noise spikes when your air conditioner switches off to leakage from your cordless phone and your neighbor's lawnmower. Depending on how good the power supplies in your various components are, some of this noise may leak through and "contaminate" your audio signal. A line filter simply sits in the power line and does its best to eliminate this electrical noise (thus helping your equipment's power supply do its job better). Most line filters, especially the ones you find in $50 power conditioners, are relatively benign. They use a combination of small-value coils in series with the signal and capacitors in parallel to filter very high frequencies without doing much else. Although some few line filters (especially "fancy" ones) may restrict current flow, most don't do so to any significant degree. (A surge suppressor plus line filter rated 15 or 20 amps should be fine to connect your power amp to.)

Whether a line filter will affect the way your system sounds will depend simply on whether you're hearing annoying noises before you connect it. If you're hearing little "birdies" and "scritches" during the quiet parts of the music, or ticks when your air conditioner goes on and off, or certain other forms of distortion, then adding a line filter may entirely eliminate them. If your backgrounds are dead silent, and you don't hear funny noises, then there's probably nothing to fix. Although it is possible that noise you don't hear might be causing some sort of distortion that you DO hear, you usually shouldn't expect an improvement in sound quality with a line filter unless there's an actual nose problem that needs fixing. That said, a typical $50 surge suppressor probably includes a line filter anyway, and they rarely make anything worse, so why not?

My conclusion would be that, unless you know that you have specific problems to address, it always makes sense to use a relatively simple surge suppressor and line filter from a reputable manufacturer. Our CMX-1 and CMX-2 are quite nice, look cool, and will also do an excellent job (they cost a little more, but are aesthetically much nicer). Lower cost units from reputable companies like APC and Belkin work well (for about $50). Avoid "no name" units, and "outlet strips" that don't actually include surge suppressors. And be careful of super-expensive "audiophile power conditioners", many of which are based on dubious science, and have just the slightest reek of snake oil about them. Also, note that, if you have a noise problem, a line filter might help make it go away, but you shouldn't otherwise expect to hear a "mystical improvement in sound quality" by using one.

Finally, a lot of this depends on the geography of your neighborhood. Some areas are prone to frequent power surges, brownouts, and line noise - while others never seem to have problems - so do a little research. (But DON'T spend lots of money to eliminate problems that you don't have - especially when the solutions can themselves cause other new problems.)

I agree for the most part.

I can tell you, in my house, I can't live without some sort of conditioning. Without it sound is very harsh. It's not just me. My wife said something along the lines of, "this hurts my ears now."

Here's an link to an old thread about when I got my XPA-2.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/419527/thread

Since this old thread I have since changed from Monster to the Belkin PF-60 (have 2 of them actually), and they work wonders. A friend of mine across town also got one and he also said it improved his sound.

I won't live without it, not in my system at my house.

Here are pics of PF-60. 2 of the outlets are labeled high current, which is what I plug the amps into. It would be interesting to know the actual difference of the differently named outlets.

[westom]

Aug 6, 2014 13:28:27 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Since this old thread I have since changed from Monster to the Belkin PF-60 (have 2 of them actually), and they work wonders. A friend of mine across town also got one and he also said it improved his sound.

Monster would sell speaker cables with the ends marked for speaker and amp connections. If you reversed those cables, Monster claimed audio was perverted. Many *claimed* they could hear the difference when connections were reversed. IOW Monster successfully sold $7 speaker wire for $60. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profits.

If Monster is selling a surge protector, then equivalent products from other companies are just as suspect. Due to advertising, names such as Panamax, APC, and Belkin are highly touted. But those devices only do what Monster also claims. Those plug-in devices only claim to protect from a type of surge that typically does no damage. Numbers below will explain more.

A completely different device, also called a surge protector, is the only solution found in facilities that cannot have damage. These effective protectors come from other companies with better integrity such as Square D, Siemens, Polyphaser, General Electric, Leviton, Syscom, Intermatic, ABB, Ditek, and Leviton. Names found in equipment that must actually be safe such as boxes, wires, and circuit breakers. Lowes and Home Depot sell the effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. Again, companies with better integrity.

One assumed a Belkin might connect a surge to ground. Unfortunately, which ground? A wall receptacle ground is only safety ground. Surge protection requires something completely different called an earth ground. Well, some assume grounds are same since interconnected. Safety ground on a receptacle cannot connected to an earth ground rod is a serious code violation and human safety problem. Because earth ground and receptacle safety ground are and must be electrically different. Surge protector attached to a wall receptacle has no earth ground. And will not even discuss it.

Let's assume a Belkin connects a surge to safety ground as claimed. That maybe 50 foot wire back to the breaker box is maybe 0.1 ohms resistance and 120 ohms impedance. Impedance (not resistance) is relevant. A tiny 100 amp surge will put a receptacle's safety ground at (100 amps times 120 ohms) something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? At nearlly 12,00 volts, the surge will find other destructive paths to earth via adjacent appliances including other not connected directly to that protetor. Wire length is critcal. A Belkin, Panamax, Monster, or APC do not claim to protect from destructive surges. It only claims to protect from another type of surge that needs no grounding. And that is already made irrelevant by protection inside each appliance.

Why does Monster sell an equivalent device for even higher prices? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profit.

Belkin, et al will not discuss earth ground for good reason. Their spec numbers discuss tiny surges (hundreds or a thousand joules). Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Then a destructive surge pass through the protector and harmlessly dissipates in earth. Effective protectors are completely different from plug-in protectors that do not protect from destructive type surges.

Another confusion is that surges are a voltage. Tiny surges that do not damage might be. But surges that actually do damage are a current source. That means a current incoming to the protector is the same current that is simultaneously passing out of the protector and into the appliance - destructively. Voltage increases as necessary so that a constant current will still flow. Belkin, Panamsx, Monster, etc do not claim and cannot protect from this type of surge. Any protector or series mode filter that tries to block a destructive surge is simply blown through by the surge. Because that current must connect to earth - destructively via the appliance.

Effective protectors from companies with integrity have a dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth ground. Manufacturer numbers actually claim to make destructive surges (ie a direct lightning strike) irrelevant. It must not fail due to any surge. But again, effective protetors do not do protection. Effective protectors are connecting devices to what does protection.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Inferior protectors (Belkin, et al) will not even discuss earth ground. Since those devices are only for surges made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. A protector is only as effective as the connection to earth ground (not receptacle safety ground).

Some protectors also claim RFI filtering. Read its numbers. It typically has near zero RFI filters. Just enough to claim 100% RFI filtering to deceieved consumers. Only RFI fitlers, superior to what already exists inside electronics, must be large and heavy. That is what Zerosurge, Brickwall, etc do. Series mode filters to actually reduce noise must be that large, heavy, and expensive.

Consuemrs who want surge protection spend about $1 per protected appliance for a superior and properly earthed 'whole house' protector. This solution costs tens of times less money AND is the only solution implemented in facilities that cannot have damage. This superior solution comes from companies with integrity and not from companies selling Monster equivalent products.

Consumers whose appliances are so badly designed as to need additional line conditioning spend maybe $100 for a series mode filter. To actually have filtering.

Line conditioning can be located adjacent to the appliance. Effective surge protector is distant from appliances and adjacent to earth ground. Two completely different devices that perform completely different functions. If Monster is selling it, then suspect the worst from equivalent products from other manufacturers.

You have no reason to believe Belkin, et al provide any useful surge protection. Even manufacturer specification numbers only claim near zero protection. Superior 'whole house' protection also costs tens of times less money - about $1 per protected appliance.

[Boomzilla]

Whole-house, MOV, or transformer-based, surge protection is cheap & efficient with (usually) no negative impact on sound. SOME tube electronics that I've owned, though, had adverse effects from surge suppressors (noise when plugged in through the surge suppressor). So far as I know, no solid-state component I've owned has ever had any audible effect (positive or negative) from surge suppression, but that may be due to the (random) quality of my service. Surge suppressors are cheap to try, so why not. If they do nothing, then you've learned that your power was reasonably clean to start with. If your power lines DO get hit by lightning, then there's a small chance that a surge protector may prevent damage, but a larger chance that it won't. Lightning is quirky. Surge suppressors are also a feasible DIY project, should anyone care to try.

[bluemeanies]

Aug 7, 2014 6:54:17 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Whole-house, MOV, or transformer-based, surge protection is cheap & efficient with (usually) no negative impact on sound. SOME tube electronics that I've owned, though, had adverse effects from surge suppressors (noise when plugged in through the surge suppressor). So far as I know, no solid-state component I've owned has ever had any audible effect (positive or negative) from surge suppression, but that may be due to the (random) quality of my service. Surge suppressors are cheap to try, so why not. If they do nothing, then you've learned that your power was reasonably clean to start with. If your power lines DO get hit by lightning, then there's a small chance that a surge protector may prevent damage, but a larger chance that it won't. Lightning is quirky. Surge suppressors are also a feasible DIY project, should anyone care to try.

Boom I agree.
As I mentioned in a previous post my amplifiers are connected directly into the wall outlets.
I did try plugging them into Furman only to discover a ground loop. With that said I I have listened to my system amplifiers plugged into the Furman and I could not distinguish any quality difference for better or worse.
I think it is a matter what sounds better to you and what sounds better to me. Our ears being a strong part of the equation.

Any house that is DIRECTLY struck by lighting will sustain terminal effects to there appliances including Home Theater/2Channel setup with 80-100% loss with or without a surge protector.

[sct]

I live in the "lightning strike capital of the world", South Florida. And I can tell you, for sure, that none of the consumer-level devices will do jack when faced with a lightning strike. Lightning will blow right thru them and smoke your precious equipment. The only thing that really works is to un-plug your devices from the wall outlets.

I use a couple of power strips for my gear. When faced with an incoming electrical storm, I simply un-plug the power strips from the wall outlets and wait for the storm to pass. Also, if I am going to be away from the house for an extended period, I do the same. I realize my experience is only anecdotal, but I have yet to lose a device to a lightning strike.

SCT

[Boomzilla]

Hi sct - Yes, unplugging helps. However, not even that is absolute. I once had a lightning storm where I unplugged everything of value before it arrived. Of course, the power went out also during the storm which is why I was surprised when I saw a huge glow coming from my living room. When I walked in to investigate, the TV set (unplugged from the wall) was glowing brighter than if it were running, a bright-white screen. The fluorescent lights (disconnected from the AC by their switches) were also glowing brighter than if they'd been on. The amount of static in the air was sufficient to light the CRT of the TV and the fluorescent tubes, despite there being no current flow. Once the static abated, neither the lights nor the TV suffered any damage - both worked fine. Just another anecdote...

Boomzilla

[Bonzo]

This topic always seems to follow the same path as does speaker wire and interconnect discussions.

I'm not a pro/expert, and I'm sure there are other and better ways to go about it. But I'm just going to say this one more time and be done with it.

Without the Belkin PF-60 in my system in my house, the sound is terribly harsh and totally unlistenable. There is zero doubt that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference with the sound of my system. Not opinion, fact. If you say I'm delusional, I say you don't know what you are talking about. There is zero doubt in my mind that if you could come over and listen, you would hear exactly what I'm talking about.

Note: I will soon be having a dedicated 20 amp outlet line ran from the fuse box direct to the back wall of my system. At that time it will be interesting to see if this changes things.