hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
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Post by hemster on Aug 7, 2014 9:37:15 GMT -5
I live in the "lightning strike capital of the world", South Florida. And I can tell you, for sure, that none of the consumer-level devices will do jack when faced with a lightning strike. Lightning will blow right thru them and smoke your precious equipment. The only thing that really works is to un-plug your devices from the wall outlets. I use a couple of power strips for my gear. When faced with an incoming electrical storm, I simply un-plug the power strips from the wall outlets and wait for the storm to pass. Also, if I am going to be away from the house for an extended period, I do the same. I realize my experience is only anecdotal, but I have yet to lose a device to a lightning strike. SCT Ditto... living on the central Gulf coast, we get more lightning than most. During storms I unplug from the wall the mains cable feeding my APC-H15. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 7, 2014 13:17:23 GMT -5
This topic always seems to follow the same path as does speaker wire and interconnect discussions. (zzz) I'm not a pro/expert, and I'm sure there are other and better ways to go about it. But I'm just going to say this one more time and be done with it. Without the Belkin PF-60 in my system in my house, the sound is terribly harsh and totally unlistenable. There is zero doubt that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference with the sound of my system. Not opinion, fact. If you say I'm delusional, I say you don't know what you are talking about. There is zero doubt in my mind that if you could come over and listen, you would hear exactly what I'm talking about. Note: I will soon be having a dedicated 20 amp outlet line ran from the fuse box direct to the back wall of my system. At that time it will be interesting to see if this changes things. BONZO No way I think that you are delusional. I did mention in a different way perhaps that everyone hears things differently. My ears are are a ripe old age of 64 and I am sure they are not the fine tuning mechanism they once were. No offense was intended. PS I have two dedicated 20amp circuits and to me there is no difference. However my two XPA1's along with my Outlaw7700 are on 20 amp circuits. |
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Post by Priapulus on Aug 7, 2014 13:23:29 GMT -5
> One assumed a Belkin might connect a surge to ground. Unfortunately, which ground? A wall receptacle ground is only safety ground. Surge protection requires something completely different called an earth ground. Well, some assume grounds are same since interconnected. Safety ground on a receptacle cannot connected to an earth ground rod is a serious code violation and human safety problem. Because earth ground and receptacle safety ground are and must be electrically different. Surge protector attached to a wall receptacle has no earth ground. And will not even discuss it.
There seems to be a lot of confusion between a lightning arrestor, and a surge protector. There are two entirely different devices, built differently, for different purposes.
Lightning is a huge quantity of electrons, millions of amperes worth in the clouds, and all they want to do is take the easiest path to the earth. If they see a shortcut, like your steel TV antenna tower, the electrons will jump thru the air to the top of the tower, flow down the steel frame and into the earth (because you have properly grounded your tower). Some of those electrons will also flow down your TV antenna leadin. At the bottom of the tower, the leadin will attach to a lightning arrestor (a spark gap, plus movs and perhaps some diodes) whose purpose it to offer the lightning a low impedance shortcut to the ground (rather than the high impedance path thru your TV). For lightning arrestors to work, you need heavy, short cables, heavy, long ground rods, etc.
This can work. I have a Ham Radio tower that gets lightning hit fairly often and I've never suffered damage. But I've spent considerable effort with proper tower grounding, lightning arrestors (and surge protection on the gear). And it works fine on countless TV, radio, Military and cell towers.
Surge protectors are something completely different. Consider the powercord for your new XMC-1. It has three wires, a feed (black, hot) sitting at 120 volts; and a neutral and a ground wire both sitting at about 0 volts. The XMC's circuitry see the difference of 120 volts between the feed and neutral, and uses it to power the xmc. The xmc was designed to accommodate 120v difference.
But then, imagine a 1,000 volt spike comes along the feed wire. now the feed is at 1,120 volts and the neutral is at 0; the XMC can't cope with 1,120 volts so dies. Now it doesn't matter which wire the 1,000 volt spike came in on; it could be the hot, neutral or ground. The XMC would still see a 1,000 volt differential and die.
Now the MOV magic. MOVs are three magic switches and connect the hot, neutral and ground together. Normally they are turned off and do nothing. But, say a spike comes down. The microsecond the voltage differential rises above, say 300 volts, the MOVs turn on, connecting the hot, neutral and ground wires together, but just for the brief micro second duration of the pulse. For that microsecond, the voltages on the wires shoot up by the pulse amount (hot = 1,120 volts, neutral and ground = 1,000 volts). Because the xmc-1 still sees only 120 volts difference (1,120-1,000=120 volts), it is undamaged.
Note that the pulse could come in any of the wires, hot, neutral or ground. Note also that you DO NOT need a ground, to be effective, you do not need heavy ground wires, ground rod or anything. Because a surge protector is not a lightning arrestor, it is not shunting anything to ground, so doesn't need massive devices or heavy wires.
It is like a boat; the pulse just is a wave that the boat (XMC-1) rises and floats over, as the pulse passes thru.
Finally, to be effective everything must be connected to the same ground. For example, let's say your XMC has a CATV coax connected for the radio. The CATV coax will be grounded at the service entrance (as required by code). You get a 1,000 volt spike and your MOV's work and bounce your lines up to hot = 1,120 volts, neutral and ground = 1,000 volts. But the CATV coax is still at 0 volts because it has a different grounding point. The 1,000 volt spike will go thru your XMC from the powercord to CATV coax which is still at 0 volts, destroying the XMC. That's why the good surge protectors have connectors for your coax (and in the old days, for your phone/modem).
You see, a surge protection problem really becomes a ground loop problem; the solution, single point grounding, surge protected.
Sincerely
/b |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 7, 2014 13:35:02 GMT -5
This topic always seems to follow the same path as does speaker wire and interconnect discussions.  I'm not a pro/expert, and I'm sure there are other and better ways to go about it. But I'm just going to say this one more time and be done with it. Without the Belkin PF-60 in my system in my house, the sound is terribly harsh and totally unlistenable. There is zero doubt that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference with the sound of my system. Not opinion, fact. If you say I'm delusional, I say you don't know what you are talking about. There is zero doubt in my mind that if you could come over and listen, you would hear exactly what I'm talking about. Note: I will soon be having a dedicated 20 amp outlet line ran from the fuse box direct to the back wall of my system. At that time it will be interesting to see if this changes things. BONZO No way I think that you are delusional. I did mention in a different way perhaps that everyone hears things differently. My ears are are a ripe old age of 64 and I am sure they are not the fine tuning mechanism they once were. No offense was intended. Certainly no offense taken. Zero. Sorry if you felt my post was directed at anyone in particular. It was meant to be a statement, in general, of my system. The electronics expert people will make posts saying devices like these aren't worth the money, don't do anything, and that they can even be detrimental. Like I said, these surge protector / line conditioner threads always seem to go the route of cables conversations and such. Some people say cables make all the difference in the world, while others say hog wash. I can't make any claims one way or another about cables (although I did hear a different bi-wiring my system), but I can say that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference (as in huge improvement)in my house and my room and my system. I also know my local friend said the same unit improved his sound also. No one can discredit those facts. What I'd like to learn is what exactly is it doing? Removing hi-frequency noise? I don't know. |
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Post by westom on Aug 7, 2014 14:27:15 GMT -5
Without the Belkin PF-60 in my system in my house, the sound is terribly harsh and totally unlistenable. There is zero doubt that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference with the sound of my system. When voltage remains below the 330 volts defined by Belkin specs, then the Belkin is electrically no different than a power strip. If the PF-60 does something useful, then Belkin spec numbers can be posted to define it. What is also a line conditioner? A knot in the power cord. Yes it does line conditioning - as advertising might claim. And it does near zero line conditioning - once we include specification numbers. What happens to cleanest power? First that 120 volts is converted to something well above 300 volts. Then converted to high voltage radio frequency spikes. Then superior filters and transformers already inside convert that to rock solid, stable, and cleanest low voltage DC. Anything the Belkin might do is first undone in the amplifier. Then superior filtering in the amplifier converts that 'dirtiest' power in the building to cleanest. |
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Post by westom on Aug 7, 2014 14:36:18 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot of confusion between a lightning arrestor, and a surge protector. There are two entirely different devices, built differently, for different purposes. Surge arrestors that do anything useful are also lightning protectors. Also called SPDs, TVSS, and numerous other names. Some will spend tens or a hundred dollars per appliance for protectors that only claim to protect from transients made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances. These protectors may even fail on surges too tiny to damage appliances. That also gets many to recommend them. Effective protection means a protector does not fail on any surge including direct lightning strikes. So why would so many spend so much on protectors that do not even claim to protect from destructive surges? Most only know from hearsay and advertising. Therefore may even spend tens or a hundred times more money on inferior protectors. Effective protector for all types of surges (as proven by over 100 years of science and experience) costs about $1 per protected appliance. Is mostly unknown since a majority who recommend protectors only know what was observed on retail shelves. And did not learn that other companies (with superior integrity) provide another and proven solution. These superior and less expensive solutions come from companies that any guy would know including General Electric, ABB, Polyphaser, Square D, Syscom, Siemens, Intermatic, Keison, and Leviton. Lowes emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/661080/edit#and Honme Depot sell a Cutler-Hammer version. Only these devices provide protection for all types of surges. And must be properly sized to even harmlessly earth direct lightning strikes. Facilities that cannot have damage (ie your Telco's CO) do not waste money on those plug-in solutions. They suffer about 100 surges per storm. So they spend less only on the superior 'whole house' solution. So that direct lighting strikes to their $multi-million computer means uninterrupted phone service. Surge protector technology is that well proven in every town all over the world. BTW numbers for MOVs (ie microseconds) are quite correct. But lets include some numbers. Assume a 4000 volt surge is approaching on the power cord (ie black hot wire). Those MOVs connect surge current to the neutral (white) and safety ground (green) wires. So 4000 volts is still approaching the appliance on the hot wire. And 3670 volts is now incoming on the neutral and safety ground wire. Adjacent MOVs have simply give that surge more paths to find earth ground destructively via adjacent appliances. As we engineers had to learn because every failure had to be explained and presented in design reviews. In one case, power strip protectors earthed a surge through the entire network of powered off computers. Using, for example, telephone modems as an outgoing and destructive path to earth. Those power strips simple earthed a surge destructively through adjacent computers and telephone line connections. Protection must exist BEFORE that current can enter a building. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 7, 2014 14:50:35 GMT -5
Without the Belkin PF-60 in my system in my house, the sound is terribly harsh and totally unlistenable. There is zero doubt that the Belkin PF-60 makes a HUGE difference with the sound of my system. When voltage remains below the 330 volts defined by Belkin specs, then the Belkin is electrically no different than a power strip. If the PF-60 does something useful, then Belkin spec numbers can be posted to define it. What is also a line conditioner? A knot in the power cord. Yes it does line conditioning - as advertising might claim. And it does near zero line conditioning - once we include specification numbers. What happens to cleanest power? First that 120 volts is converted to something well above 300 volts. Then converted to high voltage radio frequency spikes. Then superior filters and transformers already inside convert that to rock solid, stable, and cleanest low voltage DC. Anything the Belkin might do is first undone in the amplifier. Then superior filtering in the amplifier converts that 'dirtiest' power in the building to cleanest. Like I said, just like a wire debate.  You basically say my particular Belkin does nothing, and I say you are wrong. I know for a FACT you are wrong. The sound does not lie. |
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Post by Priapulus on Aug 7, 2014 15:28:53 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot of confusion between a lightning arrestor, and a surge protector. There are two entirely different devices, built differently, for different purposes. Surge arrestors that do anything useful are also lightning protectors. <snip> Protection must exist BEFORE that current can enter a building.
I believe in layers of protection. I count on the utility company for lightning protection, placed on the pole outside my house; my service panel has an excellent ground rod system (better than code). I have lightning protection on my own antennas. I have a "whole house" protector on my service panel. And I have individual surge protectors on my valuable gear. Because I can't afford not to...
Sincerely /b
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Post by lionear on Aug 9, 2014 21:56:09 GMT -5
Since this old thread I have since changed from Monster to the Belkin PF-60 (have 2 of them actually), and they work wonders. A friend of mine across town also got one and he also said it improved his sound. Monster would sell speaker cables with the ends marked for speaker and amp connections. If you reversed those cables, Monster claimed audio was perverted. Many *claimed* they could hear the difference when connections were reversed. IOW Monster successfully sold $7 speaker wire for $60. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profits. If Monster is selling a surge protector, then equivalent products from other companies are just as suspect. Due to advertising, names such as Panamax, APC, and Belkin are highly touted. But those devices only do what Monster also claims. Those plug-in devices only claim to protect from a type of surge that typically does no damage. Numbers below will explain more. A completely different device, also called a surge protector, is the only solution found in facilities that cannot have damage. These effective protectors come from other companies with better integrity such as Square D, Siemens, Polyphaser, General Electric, Leviton, Syscom, Intermatic, ABB, Ditek, and Leviton. Names found in equipment that must actually be safe such as boxes, wires, and circuit breakers. Lowes and Home Depot sell the effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. Again, companies with better integrity. One assumed a Belkin might connect a surge to ground. Unfortunately, which ground? A wall receptacle ground is only safety ground. Surge protection requires something completely different called an earth ground. Well, some assume grounds are same since interconnected. Safety ground on a receptacle cannot connected to an earth ground rod is a serious code violation and human safety problem. Because earth ground and receptacle safety ground are and must be electrically different. Surge protector attached to a wall receptacle has no earth ground. And will not even discuss it. Let's assume a Belkin connects a surge to safety ground as claimed. That maybe 50 foot wire back to the breaker box is maybe 0.1 ohms resistance and 120 ohms impedance. Impedance (not resistance) is relevant. A tiny 100 amp surge will put a receptacle's safety ground at (100 amps times 120 ohms) something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? At nearlly 12,00 volts, the surge will find other destructive paths to earth via adjacent appliances including other not connected directly to that protetor. Wire length is critcal. A Belkin, Panamax, Monster, or APC do not claim to protect from destructive surges. It only claims to protect from another type of surge that needs no grounding. And that is already made irrelevant by protection inside each appliance. Why does Monster sell an equivalent device for even higher prices? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profit. Belkin, et al will not discuss earth ground for good reason. Their spec numbers discuss tiny surges (hundreds or a thousand joules). Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Then a destructive surge pass through the protector and harmlessly dissipates in earth. Effective protectors are completely different from plug-in protectors that do not protect from destructive type surges. Another confusion is that surges are a voltage. Tiny surges that do not damage might be. But surges that actually do damage are a current source. That means a current incoming to the protector is the same current that is simultaneously passing out of the protector and into the appliance - destructively. Voltage increases as necessary so that a constant current will still flow. Belkin, Panamsx, Monster, etc do not claim and cannot protect from this type of surge. Any protector or series mode filter that tries to block a destructive surge is simply blown through by the surge. Because that current must connect to earth - destructively via the appliance. Effective protectors from companies with integrity have a dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth ground. Manufacturer numbers actually claim to make destructive surges (ie a direct lightning strike) irrelevant. It must not fail due to any surge. But again, effective protetors do not do protection. Effective protectors are connecting devices to what does protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Inferior protectors (Belkin, et al) will not even discuss earth ground. Since those devices are only for surges made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. A protector is only as effective as the connection to earth ground (not receptacle safety ground). Some protectors also claim RFI filtering. Read its numbers. It typically has near zero RFI filters. Just enough to claim 100% RFI filtering to deceieved consumers. Only RFI fitlers, superior to what already exists inside electronics, must be large and heavy. That is what Zerosurge, Brickwall, etc do. Series mode filters to actually reduce noise must be that large, heavy, and expensive. Consuemrs who want surge protection spend about $1 per protected appliance for a superior and properly earthed 'whole house' protector. This solution costs tens of times less money AND is the only solution implemented in facilities that cannot have damage. This superior solution comes from companies with integrity and not from companies selling Monster equivalent products. Consumers whose appliances are so badly designed as to need additional line conditioning spend maybe $100 for a series mode filter. To actually have filtering. Line conditioning can be located adjacent to the appliance. Effective surge protector is distant from appliances and adjacent to earth ground. Two completely different devices that perform completely different functions. If Monster is selling it, then suspect the worst from equivalent products from other manufacturers. You have no reason to believe Belkin, et al provide any useful surge protection. Even manufacturer specification numbers only claim near zero protection. Superior 'whole house' protection also costs tens of times less money - about $1 per protected appliance. I don't have any financial interest in Monster. However, I believe Monster's power conditioning gear was designed by Richard Marsh, a highly regarded engineer. Marsh also sells a line of amps - Marsh Audio Design. I tried a cheap surge protector in my system many years ago and it sounded terrible. All my gear was connected directly to the mains. When I moved into the house I live in now, the previous owner left her Monster HTS 1600 power conditioner behind. I have to admit it does improve the sound of my gear. My sources and preamp are connected to it. My XPA-100's are connected directly to the wall socket. They don't sound too good if they're plugged into the HTS 1600. My TV and cable box are connected to a Monster power strip - and I don't see any ill effects in the picture quality. As noted in this discussion, all bets are off if there's a direct lightning strike. As for "bad" mains power: A friend of mine complained about how the lights in his house blinked - the power company checked his home, they made some changes and the situation improved. So the OP's friend may wish to contact the power company. However, there may be value to products that filter the mains like the HTS 1600 (and others like the stupendously expensive Goldmund AC Curator, and the one from Burmester). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 0:02:23 GMT -5
Note: I will soon be having a dedicated 20 amp outlet line ran from the fuse box direct to the back wall of my system. At that time it will be interesting to see if this changes things. Hey Bonzo - I'd like to know how that dedicated line pans out sound wise, keep us posted please! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 0:04:26 GMT -5
BONZO No way I think that you are delusional. I did mention in a different way perhaps that everyone hears things differently. My ears are are a ripe old age of 64 and I am sure they are not the fine tuning mechanism they once were. No offense was intended. PS I have two dedicated 20amp circuits and to me there is no difference. However my two XPA1's along with my Outlaw7700 are on 20 amp circuits. Gee, you don't look 64 in your avatar pic - more like....ageless man......  |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Aug 10, 2014 10:13:34 GMT -5
Note: I will soon be having a dedicated 20 amp outlet line ran from the fuse box direct to the back wall of my system. At that time it will be interesting to see if this changes things. Bonzo, if you're going to have one 20a circuit run, why not have two of them run? It won't cost any more labor-wise(this was my experience) only a little more for the Romex, the boxes and outlets. This way you can isolate your home theater equipment on just the two 20a circuits. |
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Post by tsruha on Sept 27, 2014 11:43:19 GMT -5
Now I am completely confused.
What do I need to get to protect my equipment without having any adverse affect on the sound quality? Non-series surge suppressors?
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Post by Priapulus on Sept 27, 2014 12:51:06 GMT -5
> Now I am completely confused.
> What do I need to get to protect my equipment without having any adverse affect on the sound quality? Non-series surge suppressors?
$40 Panamax or equalevant.
Sincerely
/b
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Post by tsruha on Sept 27, 2014 14:05:35 GMT -5
Thank you.
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Sept 28, 2014 3:27:05 GMT -5
I do have to correct you on a few things - about series surge suppressors.... You are correct in saying that the current from a lightning strike WILL find its way to ground. However, a series suppressor doesn't have to stop the strike from reaching ground; all it has to do is provide enough resistance that the current will ground SOMEWHERE ELSE.... which could be through the lightning protection installed on the mains lines, or through the equipment in your neighbor's house. If lightning hits a power line, there are plenty of alternate paths to ground besides your house. (It's like door locks. No door lock or alarm will stop a determined burglar... but all you really need to do is make it difficult enough to rob your house that the burglar decides to go somewhere else easier to rob.) Also, since the series suppressor doesn't rely on grounding a lot of current, it also doesn't require an especially solid ground. Some equipment is susceptible to very high frequency noise on the line - and many line filters, even ones that don't do much to protect against surges, are pretty effective at high frequencies. This is why a line filter can indeed make an audible difference in some situations. And, yes, simply running the wire through a ten cent ferrite donut can solve some noise problems. Since this old thread I have since changed from Monster to the Belkin PF-60 (have 2 of them actually), and they work wonders. A friend of mine across town also got one and he also said it improved his sound. Monster would sell speaker cables with the ends marked for speaker and amp connections. If you reversed those cables, Monster claimed audio was perverted. Many *claimed* they could hear the difference when connections were reversed. IOW Monster successfully sold $7 speaker wire for $60. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profits. If Monster is selling a surge protector, then equivalent products from other companies are just as suspect. Due to advertising, names such as Panamax, APC, and Belkin are highly touted. But those devices only do what Monster also claims. Those plug-in devices only claim to protect from a type of surge that typically does no damage. Numbers below will explain more. A completely different device, also called a surge protector, is the only solution found in facilities that cannot have damage. These effective protectors come from other companies with better integrity such as Square D, Siemens, Polyphaser, General Electric, Leviton, Syscom, Intermatic, ABB, Ditek, and Leviton. Names found in equipment that must actually be safe such as boxes, wires, and circuit breakers. Lowes and Home Depot sell the effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. Again, companies with better integrity. One assumed a Belkin might connect a surge to ground. Unfortunately, which ground? A wall receptacle ground is only safety ground. Surge protection requires something completely different called an earth ground. Well, some assume grounds are same since interconnected. Safety ground on a receptacle cannot connected to an earth ground rod is a serious code violation and human safety problem. Because earth ground and receptacle safety ground are and must be electrically different. Surge protector attached to a wall receptacle has no earth ground. And will not even discuss it. Let's assume a Belkin connects a surge to safety ground as claimed. That maybe 50 foot wire back to the breaker box is maybe 0.1 ohms resistance and 120 ohms impedance. Impedance (not resistance) is relevant. A tiny 100 amp surge will put a receptacle's safety ground at (100 amps times 120 ohms) something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? At nearlly 12,00 volts, the surge will find other destructive paths to earth via adjacent appliances including other not connected directly to that protetor. Wire length is critcal. A Belkin, Panamax, Monster, or APC do not claim to protect from destructive surges. It only claims to protect from another type of surge that needs no grounding. And that is already made irrelevant by protection inside each appliance. Why does Monster sell an equivalent device for even higher prices? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for higher profit. Belkin, et al will not discuss earth ground for good reason. Their spec numbers discuss tiny surges (hundreds or a thousand joules). Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Then a destructive surge pass through the protector and harmlessly dissipates in earth. Effective protectors are completely different from plug-in protectors that do not protect from destructive type surges. Another confusion is that surges are a voltage. Tiny surges that do not damage might be. But surges that actually do damage are a current source. That means a current incoming to the protector is the same current that is simultaneously passing out of the protector and into the appliance - destructively. Voltage increases as necessary so that a constant current will still flow. Belkin, Panamsx, Monster, etc do not claim and cannot protect from this type of surge. Any protector or series mode filter that tries to block a destructive surge is simply blown through by the surge. Because that current must connect to earth - destructively via the appliance. Effective protectors from companies with integrity have a dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth ground. Manufacturer numbers actually claim to make destructive surges (ie a direct lightning strike) irrelevant. It must not fail due to any surge. But again, effective protetors do not do protection. Effective protectors are connecting devices to what does protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Inferior protectors (Belkin, et al) will not even discuss earth ground. Since those devices are only for surges made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. A protector is only as effective as the connection to earth ground (not receptacle safety ground). Some protectors also claim RFI filtering. Read its numbers. It typically has near zero RFI filters. Just enough to claim 100% RFI filtering to deceieved consumers. Only RFI fitlers, superior to what already exists inside electronics, must be large and heavy. That is what Zerosurge, Brickwall, etc do. Series mode filters to actually reduce noise must be that large, heavy, and expensive. Consuemrs who want surge protection spend about $1 per protected appliance for a superior and properly earthed 'whole house' protector. This solution costs tens of times less money AND is the only solution implemented in facilities that cannot have damage. This superior solution comes from companies with integrity and not from companies selling Monster equivalent products. Consumers whose appliances are so badly designed as to need additional line conditioning spend maybe $100 for a series mode filter. To actually have filtering. Line conditioning can be located adjacent to the appliance. Effective surge protector is distant from appliances and adjacent to earth ground. Two completely different devices that perform completely different functions. If Monster is selling it, then suspect the worst from equivalent products from other manufacturers. You have no reason to believe Belkin, et al provide any useful surge protection. Even manufacturer specification numbers only claim near zero protection. Superior 'whole house' protection also costs tens of times less money - about $1 per protected appliance. |
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Post by westom on Sept 28, 2014 9:55:29 GMT -5
I do have to correct you on a few things - about series surge suppressors.... You are correct in saying that the current from a lightning strike WILL find its way to ground. However, a series suppressor doesn't have to stop the strike from reaching ground; all it has to do is provide enough resistance that the current will ground SOMEWHERE ELSE.... which could be through the lightning protection installed on the mains lines, or through the equipment in your neighbor's house. If lightning finds earth through a neighbor's house, then one has no reason for surge protection. Unfortunately, your house may be earthing a surge to protect his appliances. Therefore everyone needs protection. A surge (maybe 20,000 amps) more often finds earth destructively through both houses. Yes a series mode filter might block a surge on the black (hot) wire. But the surge may also be incoming on the green (safety ground) or white (neutral) wire. Series mode filter does nothing for green wire surges. Once permitted inside, surges can be found on most any wire including green wire. Just another reason why protection must be earthed where a surge enters the house. Once permitted inside, a surge finds too many destructive paths. An example of why series mode filters may be ineffective without a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Other protectors are effective when used in conjuction with proper earthing of a 'whole house' solution. And are sometimes inferior to protection already inside each appliance. IEEE puts numbers to this. Well over 99% of protection is performed by a properly earthed service entrace ('whole house') protector. Series mode and other adjacent protectors add additional (useful) protection from residual currents. These residula currents are often made irrelevent by protectoin inside every appliance. Since destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years, then properly earthed service entrance protection is more than sufficient for consumers. Series mode filters are mostly for noise - not surges. Noise has different parameters and is mostly proplematic with sophisticated systems (ie recording studios). Even resitsance verse impedance is significantly different. Noise is more about resistance. Surge protection is all about impedance. A sharp wire bend has little effect on noise. But a wire inside metallic conduit or a sharp wire bend connecting a 'whole house' protector may completely compromise protection. Noise and surges involve different parameters, involve different devices, and even require different workmanship precautions. Impedance has little relevant to noise and is of major concern to surges. Even wire length (not thickness) is critically important to surge protection. Series mode filters are mostly for noise. Properly earthing a 'whole house' solution is essetnial for protection from surges. Series mode filters and other 'point of use' surge protection have no earthing; are mostly useless and easily overwhelmed if not used in conjuction with an earthed 'whole house' solution. With earth connections that have no sharp bends and that are as short as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet'). Wire length is mostly trivial to noise. Wire length is of major concern for surge protection. The two involve different parameters. Series mode protectors may supplement the 'whole house' solution. Without a properly earthed 'whole house' solution, series mode filters are just another device that a destrutive surge current may blow through or completely bypass. Again, protectors are secondary consideration. Some facilities have no protectors. But in every case, effective protection is defined by the most important system component - single point earth ground. All four words have electrical significance. A properly earthed service entrance solution typically does over 99% of the protection. Leaving series mode filters to provide residual protection that is often done better by protection already inside each appliance. By far, the best protection for the OP (that also costs tens of times less money) is earthing a 'whole house' solution. Only then might one spend massively more for supplemental (series mode or other 'point of use') solutions. What most increases protection (often for many times less money)? Enhancing earth ground and its connections. Protection is about impedance - not resistance. And where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. |
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Post by westom on Sept 28, 2014 10:05:22 GMT -5
What do I need to get to protect my equipment without having any adverse affect on the sound quality? Non-series surge suppressors? None of those devices adversely affect sound quality. Those devices remove anomalies from AC power. Then your electronics converts AC mains into some of the 'dirtiest' electricity in a house. Then superior filters (already inside electronics) convert that 'dirtiest' power into rock solid stable and clean DC voltages. Just another reason why AC line devices do not subvert sound quality. Hardware protection and sound quality involve completely different devices to address completley different anomalies. Worry more about how well electronics creates and then cleans 'dirtiest' electricity. |
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Post by tsruha on Sept 29, 2014 19:07:14 GMT -5
Great info. and lots to digest for a electronically challenged person like myself.  I ordered the Panamax SP8-AV for now so I at least have some protection. Once I can determine my needs, if I need something more, I'll get. Just don't want to end up buying something that I don't need or the wrong item. Thanks again for all the info. I have this thread and others bookmarked. |
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Post by vneal on Sept 29, 2014 19:29:22 GMT -5
Well lets see.
1) preamp processor
2) poweramp
3) tuner
4) sub woofer
5) CD player
6) VCR
7) remote control charger
8) game module
9) turntable
10) pre pre amp for table
11) nitty gritty record cleaner
12) cable box
THEY ALL PLUG IN. I have access to two wall plugs. I have it on a dedicated 20 amp wall plug with hospital grade recepticles. I plg my amp and sub direct;y into this. The other plug I have an Adcom Ace 515 line conditioner surge surpressor that does not add ground loop hum -and lets me plug in 10 different accessories. I will upgrade it to a modern one that is within my price range. Probably the BRICK WALL brand
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