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Post by Bonzo on Sept 15, 2014 20:02:36 GMT -5
Multiple hearings of similar has further convinced me that mastering has far more effect on the sound quality than how it is presented, CD, SACD, BD etc. Totally agree here, 100%. CD's can sound fantastic. I don't care what Neil Young says otherwise.
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Post by guzz46 on Sept 15, 2014 22:02:27 GMT -5
But what does the SACD format offer that Blu-ray Audio (BRA) can't do at least just as well? To me, Blue-ray Audio seems like the way to go because Blu-ray players have become far more common that those capable of SACD playback, and the Blu-ray format is capable of reproducing uncompressed sound of the highest definition. So what I'd like to see is everything re-released on Blu-ray Audio - remastered (*uncompressed*) from the original source recording material, and go from there. DSD, instead of PCM.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Sept 15, 2014 22:47:38 GMT -5
How can I get it to work? SACD to run through my Oppo 103 to DC-1 to XSP-1 to amps. Coax doesn't work, Oppo to Yamaha works but I want to hear the DC-1. I know I'm missing something :-)
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Post by sct on Sept 15, 2014 22:54:59 GMT -5
The Novis wondered: "How can I get it to work? SACD to run through my Oppo 103 to DC-1 to XSP-1 to amps. Coax doesn't work, Oppo to Yamaha works but I want to hear the DC-1."
Simple. Take a TOSLINK (or Coax) cable and jack it into the TOSLINK (or Coax) output on your Oppo. Then take the other end of that cable and jack it into the TOSLINK (or Coax) input on the DC-1....
SCT
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Post by sct on Sept 15, 2014 23:02:48 GMT -5
There are now more SACDs available than you could possibly listen to in your lifetime. Start buying some of those and Bluray Audio discs and then sit back and enjoy the incredible sound they have to offer...
SCT
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Post by ÈlTwo on Sept 15, 2014 23:05:32 GMT -5
Why not just have the XMC-1 decode the DSD? Then you loose the opportunity of Bass Management, EQ and in the future DIRAC room correction as this can only be applied to PCM decoded signals and not DSD. Which leads me to this question: In that instance, what's the point of DSD if you're going to convert DSD to PCM?
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Sept 15, 2014 23:20:54 GMT -5
The Novis wondered: "How can I get it to work? SACD to run through my Oppo 103 to DC-1 to XSP-1 to amps. Coax doesn't work, Oppo to Yamaha works but I want to hear the DC-1." Simple. Take a TOSLINK (or Coax) cable and jack it into the TOSLINK (or Coax) output on your Oppo. Then take the other end of that cable and jack it into the TOSLINK (or Coax) input on the DC-1.... SCT Something is amiss! It doesn't work! CDs work fine, I place a stereo SACD and it does not. Help simple!
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Post by rogersch on Sept 16, 2014 1:17:24 GMT -5
Then you loose the opportunity of Bass Management, EQ and in the future DIRAC room correction as this can only be applied to PCM decoded signals and not DSD. Which leads me to this question: In that instance, what's the point of DSD if you're going to convert DSD to PCM? None anymore imho One of the reasons that DSD format was developed for SACD was that at that time 24 bit (or even higher) DACs were too expensive to be used in consumer electronics. DSD format offered to possibility to achieve a higher audio quality than the 16 bit / 44.1 kHz PCM used on CD's. Nowadays with 24 bit DAC's as being the standard and enough processing power and storage capacity to handle 96 kHz or even higher PCM audio tracks, the advantage of DSD is questionable.
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Post by jackpine on Sept 16, 2014 7:19:06 GMT -5
How can I get it to work? SACD to run through my Oppo 103 to DC-1 to XSP-1 to amps. Coax doesn't work, Oppo to Yamaha works but I want to hear the DC-1. I know I'm missing something :-) Coax or optical won't work. You can thank the lawyers at Sony Music for tying Sony Electronics hands on that one. You can can have the Oppo send the signal as PCM over HDMI or use the Oppos analog outs. As far as I know the DC-1 doesn't do DSD either, someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Sept 16, 2014 8:09:55 GMT -5
How can I get it to work? SACD to run through my Oppo 103 to DC-1 to XSP-1 to amps. Coax doesn't work, Oppo to Yamaha works but I want to hear the DC-1. I know I'm missing something :-) Coax or optical won't work. You can thank the lawyers at Sony Music for tying Sony Electronics hands on that one. You can can have the Oppo send the signal as PCM over HDMI or use the Oppos analog outs. As far as I know the DC-1 doesn't do DSD either, someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that. I believe you are correct my friend! Easy!,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,
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Post by djoel on Sept 16, 2014 8:34:00 GMT -5
Anyone a member of SACD.net.com? If so we should link up our library on our signature so we can ask how title/s sounds like, or can recommend.
I'll add mine to start off.
Thanks
Djoel
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Post by djoel on Sept 16, 2014 8:40:13 GMT -5
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Sept 16, 2014 8:42:57 GMT -5
Anyone a member of SACD.net.com? If so we should link up our library on our signature so we can ask how title/s sounds like, or can recommend. I'll add mine to start off. Thanks Djoel Can you post a link? SACD.net.com takes me to a search engine only. thanks
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Sept 16, 2014 8:44:54 GMT -5
Found it!
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Post by yves on Sept 16, 2014 9:11:46 GMT -5
Yves, I have a few Blu-ray audio discs, not enough though! But I still really enjoy my sacds. What is it you hear that makes you prefer the blu-rays? Trey In my general experience, some of the raw edginess that is part of the music gets smoothed out by the technical flaws of DSD as a format. This artificial smoothness can be euphonic at times, but other times it becomes evident that it is an artificial trait, and that this kind of jojo effect is what tends to leave a bitter taste IMO. Sometimes it makes me perceive a layer of graininess underneath all that smoothing character, which (IMO) could be attributed to the litener's brain trying to fill in some of the information that was unnaturally smoothed out. It is fairly hard for me to further describe other than by saying properly done DSD sounds less involving and less realistic, or somewhat distractingly "colored" when compared with properly done Hi Res PCM obtained from Blu-ray or via official digital downloads or whatever. I find that all of these undesired DSD-like artifacts are also noticeable on the SACD of the DSOTM and on the SACD of WYWH.
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Post by drtrey3 on Sept 16, 2014 9:31:56 GMT -5
Great answer bro! I understand completely what you are referring to. That is so difficult in discussing audio, thank you for taking the time to explain!
Trey
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Post by jmilton on Sept 16, 2014 10:26:04 GMT -5
DSD is 1 bit. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about DSD that Paul McGowan explains for us:
"Converting analog to DSD is a pretty simple process in some respects. Even simpler than PCM. But here’s a case where the concept may be simple but the execution is not. However, in order to understand how it works, we don’t really need to wade into the details.
Basically we have a fixed clock running at 2.6MHz (single DSD, analogous to 176.4kHz in PCM) or twice that at 5.2MHz (double DSD, analogous to 352.8kHz in PCM). This clock is just plugging along making its little square waves that will eventually become the actual bits that form the music. In fact, the 1-bit we talk about is from this clock, producing a steady stream of 1-bits all at the same speed and interval.
So, picture a a guy standing at a gate. Behind this gate is the steady stream of bits moving along at 2 million, 600 thousand times a second. The gatekeeper’s job is to open the gate and let some of the bits through the gate whenever he hears some music. If he hears no music, the gate is shut, none of the little bits can escape. If he hears some music faintly playing in the background, he very carefully opens the gate and lets a few of the bits out. The louder the music he hears, the more bits he lets out.
Now, add to this picture a neighbor to the gatekeeper that’s in on this scheme to release bits. The neighbor can hear the music with one ear and with the other ear, he’s able to sense the number of bits being released by the gatekeeper. His job is to compare the number of bits released with the loudness of the music and if there’s not enough, or if there’s too many, he signals the gatekeeper to release more or lessen the flow.
Between the gatekeeper releasing bits and his neighbor, keeping a watchful eye on his activities, the number of bits goes up and down in direct proportion to the music (the neighbor providing a constant feedback to keep the system correct). That’s DSD or Pulse Density Modulation. Now, remember a couple of things: the bits are always the same size, always the same speed. All we’re doing is letting more (higher density) or less (lower density) through the gate. If you just open the gate and let all the bits flow without any change, that’s as loud as the music can ever get. Close the gate and let nothing through, that’s as quiet as it can get.
Keeping that picture of changing density in your mind and remembering that the bits are actually just energy – electrical energy – then it isn’t too big a leap to imagine that moving electrical energy can make music. After all, isn’t analog just moving electrical energy? Sure it is. In fact, the only difference between the DSD moving energy and the analog moving energy is all those little stops and starts of the single bits. How do you remove those and fill in the small gap between bits?
A DSD DAC which, in its simplest form, is nothing more than a resistor and a capacitor. Remember? Ten cents worth of parts go into a simple DSD DAC and those parts smooth out all the transitions and you are left with …… wait for it …….
Analog."
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Post by jmilton on Sept 16, 2014 10:33:38 GMT -5
"One of the most fundamental of differences between PCM and PDM is how far away one is from analog and, of course, how close is the other.
PCM is about as far away from analog as you could get. PCM is a computer code. If you place the digital output of your CD player into your preamplifier and give it a listen, you get nothing but noise.
PDM (DSD) is about as close to analog as you can get without being analog. If you place the digital output of of a DSD player (were there such a beast in the first place) into your preamplifier and give it a listen, you get music."- P McGowan
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Post by garbulky on Sept 16, 2014 10:47:58 GMT -5
"One of the most fundamental of differences between PCM and PDM is how far away one is from analog and, of course, how close is the other. PCM is about as far away from analog as you could get. PCM is a computer code. If you place the digital output of your CD player into your preamplifier and give it a listen, you get nothing but noise. PDM (DSD) is about as close to analog as you can get without being analog. If you place the digital output of of a DSD player (were there such a beast in the first place) into your preamplifier and give it a listen, you get music."- P McGowan By the metaphor that very nicely explained the idea, it seemed to me like the 1 bit DAC can produce amplitude (more bits = more volume) or frequency (more bits = higher frequency). How does it do both?
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Post by Priapulus on Sept 16, 2014 20:19:37 GMT -5
> By the metaphor that very nicely explained the idea, it seemed to me like the 1 bit DAC can produce amplitude (more bits = more volume) or frequency (more bits = higher frequency). How does it do both?
The volume of bits thru the gate is amplitude; how quickly the gate opens and closes is frequency. Just like analogue... Sincerely /b
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