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Post by leonski on Jan 21, 2015 23:24:47 GMT -5
Since this is the VIDEO topic section of the forum, I'd like to toss in MY personal suggestion and complaint.
When going out and happening by ANY place selling TVs, I see a dozen or more versions of the SAME program. Some color is cartoonish while sometimes the saturation is so under-done as to almost be a B&W image.
NTSC, the 'standard', really means 'No Two Same Color'. Most brightness is Over The Top, too.
An ISF Guy coming out will cost 300$ up, depending on complexity and number of inputs to be cal'd. The real video fanatic can spend more.
ME? I'm curious about the Calibration discs I see online. I OWNED the Digital Video Essentials disc for CRT and it made a good set better….but took some time and a couple run thrus.
I have a SPYDER for my Computer Monitor and use it to great effect. My monitor is well calibrated for PHOTOGRAPHY, and my results show it. My prints match my monitor very well…...
ANYONE have any experience with TV setup? Anyone CARE? It seems that statistically about 1/2 of ALL sets sold are NEVER adjusted! That can't hold around here, where I expect a higher standard.
Let me know what disc you use, too, for calibration, and how tough it was.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 21, 2015 23:36:37 GMT -5
DVE and the Disney WOW disc. Both work well. I find the WOW disc quite comprehensive and easy to use.
I know it's not a professional calibration, but I'm too cheap to pay for one and these disc get me a great picture.
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Post by novisnick on Jan 21, 2015 23:50:24 GMT -5
DVE and the Disney WOW disc. Both work well. I find the WOW disc quite comprehensive and easy to use. I know it's not a professional calibration, but I'm too cheap to pay for one and these disc get me a great picture. That disc will get you a good picture, calibration gets a great one!   Just my 2 cents. 8) |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 21, 2015 23:58:01 GMT -5
DVE and the Disney WOW disc. Both work well. I find the WOW disc quite comprehensive and easy to use. I know it's not a professional calibration, but I'm too cheap to pay for one and these disc get me a great picture. That disc will get you a good picture, calibration gets a great one! View Attachment Just my 2 cents. 8) Not raining on my parade. Thanks for the two pennies!  |
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Post by leonski on Jan 22, 2015 3:25:33 GMT -5
I found the DVE (from memory) got my CRT Panasonic which was the LAST of the BIG (heavy, too) 36"ers, to very good level. I'm pretty sure an ISF guy could do lots better, but compared to how the set came? Big Wow.
I've seen the 'Monster' disc, too, but have a personal grudge against Monster and so can't recommend.
Have the discs changed much from my original DVE? I know displays sure have!
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Post by LuisV on Jan 22, 2015 7:03:00 GMT -5
Regardless of which disk used, you are adjusting settings by sight, so I wouldn't call them "calibration" disks. Some will debate, but I've found that they are a useful tool to help you achieve a slightly better picture than tuning the TV / projector without them. I haven't used a professional service, but I'm curious if the $400 - $600 systems such as these would provide similar results as a professional calibration as they are similar in cost: calman.spectracal.com/store/c3/CalMAN_Home_Video.html |
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 22, 2015 7:43:46 GMT -5
Regardless of which disk used, you are adjusting settings by sight, so I wouldn't call them "calibration" disks. Some will debate, but I've found that they are a useful tool to help you achieve a slightly better picture than tuning the TV / projector without them. I haven't used a professional service, but I'm curious if the $400 - $600 systems such as these would provide similar results as a professional calibration as they are similar in cost: calman.spectracal.com/store/c3/CalMAN_Home_Video.htmlI'm curious about this too. I will argue that these discs do provide a much better picture than just "slightly" better. Granted if you are experienced and know what you are doing, and can set your picture well "by eye", that might be true, but for most folks out there who don't have a clue, these discs are a great help. As to whether DVE has improved, I believe so, but I don't have the latest blu-ray version. |
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Post by KeithL on Jan 22, 2015 8:50:04 GMT -5
Assuming you follow the instructions, you should be able to produce the same results as a professional - with a few kudos... (The $500 consumer meter might not be quite as accurate as a really expensive pro version, or it actually might be; either way it should be plenty accurate enough to do a "visibly perfect" job.) 1) On some brands and models of TVs, you need a special "code" to access the calibration controls, and some manufacturers officially DO NOT allow "end users" to have the magic number. (They claim they're afraid you'll screw it up... or they're protecting the ability of their resellers to charge for the service... believe whichever you like.) These days, if your TV needs an access code, you can probably find the access code for your brand online somewhere, or you could try asking their support folks and hope they're in the mood to be helpful. Also note that calibrating a TV is usually much more complicated than doing a computer monitor - because the computer software takes care of applying the settings and allows you to avoid a lot of fiddling with possibly fussy controls. 2) The meter should enable you to get a "technically accurate" result, but a pro can probably do a better job of tweaking the adjustments if it turns out you don't like what the meter gives you. (Even good software has some slight variation in the results, and your preference may not be for the video equivalent of "dead flat" - although mine personally is.) You may not be able to tell the software "gee, it's nice, but I like the picture a little warmer". 3) Finally, be careful about buying a used meter, or one from an unknown brand. I have a Gretag MacBeth meter, and a Spyder, and one of their support folks once told me that " ALL" color calibration meters drift significantly, and so they REALLY need to be re-calibrated every few years to ensure accurate results". Considering the cost of calibration services, he suggested that, if I bought or already had a low cost meter, I should plan on replacing it every few years if I wanted really good results (since he included his own brand in this warning, I'm inclined to believe him). Of course, on the upside, TVs also drift, so even an expensive professional calibration may need to be re-done every few years - especially if you have a projector or rear-projection model (since the bulbs "wear down" and change light output characteristics as they age). If you're doing the calibration, you can do it whenever you need to at no additional cost. Regardless of which disk used, you are adjusting settings by sight, so I wouldn't call them "calibration" disks. Some will debate, but I've found that they are a useful tool to help you achieve a slightly better picture than tuning the TV / projector without them. I haven't used a professional service, but I'm curious if the $400 - $600 systems such as these would provide similar results as a professional calibration as they are similar in cost: calman.spectracal.com/store/c3/CalMAN_Home_Video.html |
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Post by LuisV on Jan 22, 2015 10:28:32 GMT -5
I will argue that these discs do provide a much better picture than just "slightly" better. Sorry, didn't mean to sound as if the improvement was insignificant... since it's done by sight and we all see differently, that results would vary.  |
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Post by LuisV on Jan 22, 2015 10:30:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Keith. Any experience with these systems or have a recommendation on a similar system?
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Post by vcautokid on Jan 22, 2015 10:35:00 GMT -5
I agree with Keith. A Sancor, and colorimeter, and more with an ISF tech to properly Calibrate your Monitor, or display.
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Post by leonski on Jan 22, 2015 12:26:46 GMT -5
CGOLF: picture improvement from the ISF guy is a crap shoot. I've talked to a very few who discarded HIS settings altogether and preferred it the 'old' way.
You should probably get some experience with a calibrated display before proceeding. A proper display comes as quite a shock to some people. Not as bright, usually, and colors that don't just jump off the screen and SLAP you in the face!
Now, for Keith:
Computer Spyders and software are very advanced these days. NO image production house would be without 'em. And they aren't ALL that much $$$ when you consider the results. Of course, with a full digital system, the MONITOR is only part of the issue while printing and such becomes ANOTHER headache. I suppose you could even profile your CAMERA, if you could get at the software! I know that every digital camera I've owned or experimented with has image differences between JPG output (what most people like) and what is called 'Camera Raw', which might be likened to a digital negative.
Don't even get STARTED on stuff like 'color space'. sRGB? Adobe RGB? NTSC? Color temperature? GreyScale? A whole RAFT of adjustments. I went into the service menu on my old SONY SXRD set and it was AMAZING. So, be CAREFUL if you go that far! Some of those adjustments are pretty tricky.
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Post by KeithL on Jan 22, 2015 13:05:37 GMT -5
Most cameras these days actually have someplace where you can adjust the conversion to JPG (in a general sort of way) - with options like "normal" and "vivid" and "sports". (And everybody complains that the pictures look different because Nikon's "pro" cameras default to "normal" while their consumer models default to "vivid" ) Profiling printers is a pain... although you can usually get "calibration files" from the manufacturer which, although they don't account for things like the paper you're using, actually work surprisingly well overall. Profiling your camera actually isn't that difficult, the only problem is that, since it depends on the lighting as well as the camera, you need to do it for each batch of pictures you take under certain lighting conditions or at a certain location. Basically, when you take the first picture, you sit a little color chart in front of your subject, or have them hold it. Then, when you process that set of pictures, you point a color calibration plugin at the picture of the chart, and it reads the chart and does all the calculations for you.... and essentially hands you a calibration table for that particular set of pictures. (A simpler version is to use a little "color cube" that includes only white, black, and neutral grey.) Another cool feature these days is the ability to make "quickie" adjustments on white balance. You point to several points on your image that are supposed to be neutral grey, black, or white, and the program adjusts things so those spots are really neutral, which then pulls the color balance of the rest of the picture into line. (They're not perfect, but they work better than you'd think.) There are also cool little "white balance lens caps". These are a translucent plastic lens cap which you put on your camera (you can leave it on as a lens cap). To use it, you just hold the camera where your subject is, and tell the camera to set its white balance... the translucent cap blurs the ambient light into a nice smooth field, and the camera then uses this to set its white balance correctly (usually). The "quickie white balance" feature is now built into Photoshop, but there are more convenient third-party alternatives.... You might want to check out these guys.... www.pictocolor.comI use their EditLab and InCamera products - which I find quite convenient. I'm waiting for the day when TV manufacturers include the software IN the set, so you can just plug in your calibrator, stick it on the screen, and hit a button - and let the TV do the rest. CGOLF: picture improvement from the ISF guy is a crap shoot. I've talked to a very few who discarded HIS settings altogether and preferred it the 'old' way. You should probably get some experience with a calibrated display before proceeding. A proper display comes as quite a shock to some people. Not as bright, usually, and colors that don't just jump off the screen and SLAP you in the face! Now, for Keith: Computer Spyders and software are very advanced these days. NO image production house would be without 'em. And they aren't ALL that much $$$ when you consider the results. Of course, with a full digital system, the MONITOR is only part of the issue while printing and such becomes ANOTHER headache. I suppose you could even profile your CAMERA, if you could get at the software! I know that every digital camera I've owned or experimented with has image differences between JPG output (what most people like) and what is called 'Camera Raw', which might be likened to a digital negative. Don't even get STARTED on stuff like 'color space'. sRGB? Adobe RGB? NTSC? Color temperature? GreyScale? A whole RAFT of adjustments. I went into the service menu on my old SONY SXRD set and it was AMAZING. So, be CAREFUL if you go that far! Some of those adjustments are pretty tricky. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 22, 2015 14:03:18 GMT -5
I come at this as a PHOTOGRAPHER and with a slightly different technique. First, I own a large (8x10) GREY CARD. This with my meter in REFLECTED mode will give me a BASE exposure for that set of scenes. I've included a grey SCALE which goes from pure white to darkest black in some shots. Straightening out the grey point fixes MOST color problems. But not all. Sometimes, in Photoshop, I will indeed use the white balance feature in 'Levels'. You simply click on a WHITE portion of the picture. You also have a grey point AND black available in that dialogue. My Local Costco PUBLISHES profile data and all I have to do is ATTACH the profile to the photo and tell them I did so. It is for a CERTAIN printer they own, so I specify THAT, too. The results with a Calibrated monitor are nothing short of spectacular. If anyone is interested in better prints by that method, go to 'DRYCREEK' and look up the local Costco and see if they are listed AND along with the date of last profile. I leave my color space in sRGB and white balance in Auto. I can make adjustments by EYE later. Also, I will be exploring RAW on my new camera. THAT will do away with most of that nonsense in-camera, anyway. SONY has a RAW convertor packaged in software which I need to learn how to use. In the past, I used PHOTOSHOP for all my Camera Raw needs. In those days, I learned to dislike the Canon software called 'Digitital Photo Professional'. As for printers? The last time I used the EPSON drivers, I got NOWHERE and burned a bunch of 4x6 paper (ink saving measure!) trying to make 'em work. NOTHING I could do appeared to help. Let Photoshop adjust? Let Printer adjust? Who Cares? I explored what I thought were ALL the options and could NEVER get good blacks while color accuracy was IFFY. THAN I found Gutenprint FREE DRIVERS and ALL my problems were SOLVED. gimp-print.sourceforge.netWOW, GREAT IDEA. Computer talking to the TV and using it to PROFILE your set with an EXTERNAL SPYDER! All the pieces but ONE currently exist. And don't think 'THEY' don't know about it, either. ISF will fight this tooth and nail. Imagine being able to get your TV picture to ISF standards for the price of a SPYDER, also used for your computer, just by moving the computer over near the TV and running the routine! You'll need to run it into an HDMI input, but that's not a big limit. |
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Post by KeithL on Jan 22, 2015 14:26:35 GMT -5
I've always been somewhat obsessive about calibrating my computer monitors, and I always carefully correct my photos, but I'm a bit of a slacker when it comes to TVs. I have both the Gretag MacBeth and Spyder computer monitor calibrators, both of which work quite well, and I bought the TV calibration "add-on" for the Spyder, but it's been in storage since my last move, and I haven't used it yet. I can tell you that the Spyder computer calibration set works very well (it uses the same meter, but different software), and I've also heard good things about the Calman (SpectraCal) video calibration products. Thanks for the reply Keith. Any experience with these systems or have a recommendation on a similar system? |
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Post by KeithL on Jan 22, 2015 14:43:18 GMT -5
Excellent info about Costco; it wouldn't have even occurred to me to look there for high quality printing. The white balance feature in Photoshop works well; what Picto EditLab adds is the ability to save profiles and batch-apply them to whole sets of pictures, and other features like that (and you can edit the profiles). RAW is definitely the way to go; and both Photoshop and Lightroom now support RAW files from pretty well all major brands and models of cameras - and they've gotten a lot better lately with keeping up with new models. Lightroom is cool, but I actually used to like it better; it's gotten to be an awfully big and complicated program just to manage your photos - unless you have an awful lot of photos to manage. As for that last... I was actually thinking one step further. Everything, including the TV, already has its own internal computer these days. How about just plugging the Spyder meter into the USB port on the TV and hitting the "calibrate" button? (And the TV manufacturer could make back a little money by making you buy their branded version of the meter; it would still save you a lot of money and inconvenience, and it would help lock you into that brand.) I come at this as a PHOTOGRAPHER and with a slightly different technique. First, I own a large (8x10) GREY CARD. This with my meter in REFLECTED mode will give me a BASE exposure for that set of scenes. I've included a grey SCALE which goes from pure white to darkest black in some shots. Straightening out the grey point fixes MOST color problems. But not all. Sometimes, in Photoshop, I will indeed use the white balance feature in 'Levels'. You simply click on a WHITE portion of the picture. You also have a grey point AND black available in that dialogue. My Local Costco PUBLISHES profile data and all I have to do is ATTACH the profile to the photo and tell them I did so. It is for a CERTAIN printer they own, so I specify THAT, too. The results with a Calibrated monitor are nothing short of spectacular. If anyone is interested in better prints by that method, go to 'DRYCREEK' and look up the local Costco and see if they are listed AND along with the date of last profile. I leave my color space in sRGB and white balance in Auto. I can make adjustments by EYE later. Also, I will be exploring RAW on my new camera. THAT will do away with most of that nonsense in-camera, anyway. SONY has a RAW convertor packaged in software which I need to learn how to use. In the past, I used PHOTOSHOP for all my Camera Raw needs. In those days, I learned to dislike the Canon software called 'Digitital Photo Professional'. As for printers? The last time I used the EPSON drivers, I got NOWHERE and burned a bunch of 4x6 paper (ink saving measure!) trying to make 'em work. NOTHING I could do appeared to help. Let Photoshop adjust? Let Printer adjust? Who Cares? I explored what I thought were ALL the options and could NEVER get good blacks while color accuracy was IFFY. THAN I found Gutenprint FREE DRIVERS and ALL my problems were SOLVED. gimp-print.sourceforge.netWOW, GREAT IDEA. Computer talking to the TV and using it to PROFILE your set with an EXTERNAL SPYDER! All the pieces but ONE currently exist. And don't think 'THEY' don't know about it, either. ISF will fight this tooth and nail. Imagine being able to get your TV picture to ISF standards for the price of a SPYDER, also used for your computer, just by moving the computer over near the TV and running the routine! You'll need to run it into an HDMI input, but that's not a big limit. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 22, 2015 15:25:26 GMT -5
Than there are people like ME who REBEL at being stuck using a XXX branded 'thing' with XXX brand TV or Camera.
Right now, I'm PISSED at CAmbridge Audio since apparently the DONGLE I need for bluetooth is ONLY available from CA. At 100$. YOU GUYS sell the SAME thing at a fraction the price, but will it work?
SONY tried that scam years ago with Memory stick. Now? My Sony uses SD. My old Canon Professional used EITHER of SD or CF. at the same time.
Everybody buys into Proprietary BATTERIES. What's wrong with AA or whatever? I've seen 'odd' sizes, too, like 2/3 A and such.
The battery pack for my Canon used 10 AA NiMH batteries internally. Canon got 100$ for this pack! It was only 1600MHr and was NOT a low-self discharge battery. The pack can be rebuilt for cheap, and you
can probably source a low-self discharge cell and go to 2200 or 2400 MHr at the same time. No change in charger or electronics necessary.
If I had to BUY a branded screen spyder to go WITH that brand of TV, I'd find another TV. And SOMEBODY will have there hand out for 'Digital Rights' and 'Software Fees' for using whatever software which is
NOW resident IN the TV. I'm sure even MICROSHAFT will have their hand out.
Personally, the last stats I saw claim that 50% of ALL sets are left UNTOUCHED as to settings. This means that by an large, MOST people simply don't care enough to even TRY to improve the picture. Just like the old
film days and the difference between PROFESSIONAL film and CONSUMER stuff was color balance (hot/vivid for consumer) while my eye learned to appreciate the Pro Film….. As did my customers when I did a wedding
and had Proper processing. Perfect flesh tones from film like Kodak VC160 are to be treasured.
MAYBE SOME KIND OF INTERNET APP? That uses a feature already on MOST sets and leverages a single software platform. As long as set manufacturers can reach at least minimal agreement. Don't forget that
each set could have its own 'plug in' which carries that unique identifier and cal information.
I have a MAC but DO NOT use iPhoto. I use Adobe Bridge as my 'organizer'.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 31, 2015 17:57:21 GMT -5
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 1, 2015 9:46:38 GMT -5
As to whether DVE has improved, I believe so, but I don't have the latest blu-ray version. I have both the original DVD and Blu-ray of DVE. I've been able to improve all of my sets with these disks, but I find them dated and clumsy. The BRD version has very little new material and is mostly just higher res. Though it is fairly comprehensive, I'll be looking for something else the nex time I buy a new (UHD?) set. |
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