XMR-1

[Gary Cook]

Feb 12, 2016 17:24:13 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:20:42 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

There's something that I'd like to see on the XMR-1 (and all Emotiva Processors for that matter), it's analogue bass management when in Reference Stereo. Plus whenever an analogue stereo source is being used without DIRAC. That's the main reason why I have a USP-1 (XMC-1 on the way), the ability to do effective bass management while in the analogue domain. If this feature was included in a processor it would mean that I could happily live without a dedicated stereo pre amp.

I thought this also until I got the XMC. I liked its bass mgmt better than what I had, even though it was digital.
Mark

It's not just the digital bass management itself but the necessity to convert an analogue input signal to digital for the bass management process and then back to analogue for listening. That's too many ADC to DAC processes for me. If I only listened to digital inputs then it wouldn't concern me, but I have analogue inputs, including vinyl.


Cheers
Gary

[rhale64]

Gary, Dirac is so good in the digital domain that you might not want or need analog bass mgmt. I have never liked a eq system for imaging until Dirac.

[klinemj]

Feb 12, 2016 17:58:26 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:24:13 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I thought this also until I got the XMC. I liked its bass mgmt better than what I had, even though it was digital.
Mark

It's not just the digital bass management itself but the necessity to convert an analogue input signal to digital for the bass management process and then back to analogue for listening. That's too many ADC to DAC processes for me. If I only listened to digital inputs then it wouldn't concern me, but I have analogue inputs, including vinyl.


Cheers
Gary

I fully understand and had the same concern. Note my signature line. My Thorens TT has never sounded better (but I would like a VPI TT and Benz cart like a friend has!!!). My concern was overcome. Once your XMC comes in, be sure to share your findings.

Mark

[Gary Cook]

Next week I think I have an XMC-1 coming in for a minor service issue. So it's a chance to test drive one, something that's not really useable here for Emotiva gear. If it does I'll be sure to do a review.

Cheers
Gary

[Axis]

Analog bass management seems to be fairly rare on preamps or integrated amps. The USP-1 and the XSP-1 have it and it seems to be very popular to use them with A/V gear for separate analog two channel with the same speakers. I may be the odd ball. I do not use the same speakers for both. My A/V surround speakers are pointed at one chair. It is a recliner that looks dead center at my display. I never sit there to listen to music and when I do listen to music on my A/V system, both mains are on one side of the room and the thrill of the song is just not there. I have a separate set of speakers that face the direction that I sit when I am at the PC or kitchen and I get direct sound from them. I use the USP-1 as preamp for a separate two channel system with these speakers.

Do you think with all that needs to go into the A/V preamp now days that it will be a feature that anyone (not just Emotiva) is going to build in ?

Yes, I like, no, I love pure analog. My little simple USP-1 and UPA-2 are incredible. If you could get one preamp to do both the digital stuff with A/V and pure analog with analog bass management that would be awesome. You know that everyone here is demanding 16 channels, fully balanced, Atmos DTS that and room correction that needs a large computer to process. That is a lot to put in one box. Big Dan says his new processor currently known as XMR-1 is going to be a monster. It is cool to wish for things. We might be surprised with just what Gary wants. I would not be disappointed and post 50 million times that Emotiva screwed us if it does not. That is getting old.

[brado]

Feb 12, 2016 17:59:06 GMT -5 rhale64 said:

Gary, Dirac is so good in the digital domain that you might not want or need analog bass mgmt. I have never liked a eq system for imaging until Dirac.

My experience with Dirac is the exact opposite. In my configuration it eats bass. I have Dirac full. I've tried a few times to modify the filters but it hasn't worked. Unfortunately, the Dirac app on a Mac crashes so much that I gave up. Dirac does very well in the upper bass and midrange, but it sufficiently hoses the low end that I don't use it at all. I find going Direct using just Preset 1 with proper distance settings is preferable overall. I use Reference Stereo for music, which bypasses all processing and sounds excellent in my setup.  

[rhale64]

Wow. In my setup Dirac works perfectly. I am listening right now to Keiko Matsui. Just incredible sounding.

[etc6849]

They'll never add this feature.  From an engineering standpoint it makes no sense as the ADC -> DAC conversion you complain about adds virtually no noise.  In fact, if you are not a super human, I doubt you can hear enough dynamic range to notice the noise level.  You can also absolutely hear IMD, so as you rightly suggest you do really want to run subs if you are concerned with fidelity, and from an engineering/technical aspect IMD is the worst of the two evils.  I would by far be concerned with it for low frequencies versus any virtually undetectable noise added by the XMC-1 or XMR-1.

What you should be worried about is how quiet your room is and fixing it acoustically. That you will hear and notice a big difference 100% of the time like IMD at low frequencies.

There are test websites to check your systems dynamic range that you can hear though:  www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_dynamic.php

Lots of good tests there too including one on IMD:  www.audiocheck.net/soundtestsaudiotesttones_index.php

I hear you about having records you enjoy, but too many audio folks are all digital now.  Not worth even adding a phono input really as their target market may not even have records as we are talking about a 16 channel home theater processor.  I would buy the Emotiva phono preamp and just add it to the XMR-1 if I had a record player though.  Definitely wouldn't keep me from buying it.  The sound of the XMC-1 I have is a very nice processor; can't wait for the XMR-1.

Feb 12, 2016 17:58:26 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:24:13 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I thought this also until I got the XMC. I liked its bass mgmt better than what I had, even though it was digital.
Mark

It's not just the digital bass management itself but the necessity to convert an analogue input signal to digital for the bass management process and then back to analogue for listening. That's too many ADC to DAC processes for me. If I only listened to digital inputs then it wouldn't concern me, but I have analogue inputs, including vinyl.


Cheers
Gary

[509Paul]

The Dirac software for Mac needs some bugs removed to fix the crash problems. It does the same for me and the bass levels are reduced so much that I wonder if my subwoofer is even on.

[skippy1977]

No bass issues at all with two Rythmik F-12SEs and Dirac. I don't even have to bump up the levels at all as movies and multi-channel music sounds excellent. Could it be a setup issue for those with low bass and Dirac?

[etc6849]

What is interesting about it is Dirac may actually be making your low freq decay more evenly and at a faster rate.  This usually results in less "fat" bass.  Fat bass is when bass freq take longer to decay and some people get used to that sound and like it (nothing wrong with that if you do).

If you want to, search on google for "REW" or "room eq wizard."  It would help a lot in diagnosing your issues if you want to use that free software and buy a calibrated USB mic such as the MiniDSP USB mic from MiniDSP or from Crosspectrum Labs to measure the differences.  I always double check Dirac after a new calibration with REW.

Feb 13, 2016 16:09:41 GMT -5 509Paul said:

The Dirac software for Mac needs some bugs removed to fix the crash problems. It does the same for me and the bass levels are reduced so much that I wonder if my subwoofer is even on.

[fbczar]

Feb 12, 2016 19:36:43 GMT -5 brado said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:59:06 GMT -5 rhale64 said:

Gary, Dirac is so good in the digital domain that you might not want or need analog bass mgmt. I have never liked a eq system for imaging until Dirac.

My experience with Dirac is the exact opposite. In my configuration it eats bass. I have Dirac full. I've tried a few times to modify the filters but it hasn't worked. Unfortunately, the Dirac app on a Mac crashes so much that I gave up. Dirac does very well in the upper bass and midrange, but it sufficiently hoses the low end that I don't use it at all. I find going Direct using just Preset 1 with proper distance settings is preferable overall. I use Reference Stereo for music, which bypasses all processing and sounds excellent in my setup.  

Brado, Do I understand correctly that you are not using a subwoofer in your main system and that your main system is the one having trouble with bass when Dirac is engaged?

[brado]

fbczar, I've tried both with a sub (paradigm studio 12), and without (just with my Triton 1's). Same behavior both ways. But the mac crashes are what keep me from any further investigation - just too frustrating and time consuming.

[Talley]

Feb 16, 2016 8:10:23 GMT -5 brado said:

fbczar, I've tried both with a sub (paradigm studio 12), and without (just with my Triton 1's). Same behavior both ways. But the mac crashes are what keep me from any further investigation - just too frustrating and time consuming.

you can pick up a cheap laptop for windows for 150 bucks that will run dirac.  shouldn't stop you.  

[brado]

thanks Talley. I actually have VMWare fusion w/ a windows vm on my laptop (that's how I've run ARC in the past). If memory serves, I think I installed the Windows version of Dirac on the VM, but since I had already registered the license key on my Mac, I would have had to jump through support hoops to get another key. I'm pretty sure at that point I just punted out of frustration. The whole Dirac crash experience has soured me on the product. And the Tritons sound really good w/o correction.

FWIW, I already had several hours on the phone w support for the mac side, and many hours trying to get the mac side to work. Just didn't feel like climbing another potential mountain.

[fbczar]

Feb 16, 2016 8:10:23 GMT -5 brado said:

fbczar, I've tried both with a sub (paradigm studio 12), and without (just with my Triton 1's). Same behavior both ways. But the mac crashes are what keep me from any further investigation - just too frustrating and time consuming.

Which operating system are you using on your Mac? I run Yosemite on a 2009 i7 iMac with no problem, but I may just be lucky. I have two Kreisel DXD12012 subs in a stacked configuration. When I measure them with Dirac Full on their default level setting I generally need to turn the level down 3db to 6db. After all measurements are complete I just reset them to the default level and everything is wonderful.  It is important to get your levels where you want them before you run Dirac. The XMC-1 is nice because the remote control has a subwoofer level control. Sometimes it is necessary to adjust for music vs movies. If you can post a Dirac graph or two of your subs and your mains without the subs I would appreciate it.

[brado]

fbczar, on my 2010 macbook pro, I'm still on Mavericks. That's what I've used for most of my Dirac work.

I did try running Dirac on my 2011 iMac running Yosemite, but no matter what I tried on the iMac, Dirac never saw the XMC-1, so I went back to doing everything on the laptop. I've tried with both wired through a switch and wifi but no joy.

[KeithL]

Actually, in order to get another key, all you'd have had to do would have been to... err... call support and ask us to reset your key

Feb 16, 2016 12:17:36 GMT -5 brado said:

thanks Talley. I actually have VMWare fusion w/ a windows vm on my laptop (that's how I've run ARC in the past). If memory serves, I think I installed the Windows version of Dirac on the VM, but since I had already registered the license key on my Mac, I would have had to jump through support hoops to get another key. I'm pretty sure at that point I just punted out of frustration. The whole Dirac crash experience has soured me on the product. And the Tritons sound really good w/o correction.

FWIW, I already had several hours on the phone w support for the mac side, and many hours trying to get the mac side to work. Just didn't feel like climbing another potential mountain.

[brado]

I know, it's a matter of time/priority/etc. As is hopefully obvious from all my other posts, I'm very very happy with all my emo gear (and I have quite a bit). Dirac has just been a thorn in an otherwise sea of roses.

[Lsc]

Yes the key is pretty easy. I had VMware before as well and when I got my Windows laptop I got another key. Took about 10 min.