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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 13:17:36 GMT -5
Much of your harping is also when using test files and in the real world most folks don't sit around listening to test files. And please stop collectively-aggressively distribute lies about me! Every day I use the XMC-1 I experience the problem. All with real content. On real music files. On TV. The only days I don't hear it is when I don't use XMC-1. And NO, I don't listen test files every day... except that (some of) those music files I find exposing the problem are becoming test files. One of the files is a cut from the Led Zeppelin CD, as you might guess from my nick name I really listen this music and this is not only 'test file' for me! |
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Post by nickwin on Sept 4, 2015 13:31:35 GMT -5
Much of your harping is also when using test files and in the real world most folks don't sit around listening to test files. And please stop collectively-aggressively distribute lies about me! Every day I use the XMC-1 I experience the problem. All with real content. On real music files. On TV. The only days I don't hear it is when I don't use XMC-1. And NO, I don't listen test files every day... except that (some of) those music files I find exposing the problem are becoming test files. One of the files is a cut from the Led Zeppelin CD, as you might guess from my nick name I really listen this music and this is not only 'test file' for me! Whether there is a widespread problem or not, what you're describing is definitely atypical. considering that, it sounds like you have a problem with your unit, maybe corrupted firmware? Or a particular device is interacting poorly with the XMC? If your literally getting problems every day something is going on in your particular case. |
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Post by nickwin on Sept 4, 2015 13:34:23 GMT -5
Much of your harping is also when using test files and in the real world most folks don't sit around listening to test files. And please stop collectively-aggressively distribute lies about me! Every day I use the XMC-1 I experience the problem. All with real content. On real music files. On TV. The only days I don't hear it is when I don't use XMC-1. And NO, I don't listen test files every day... except that (some of) those music files I find exposing the problem are becoming test files. One of the files is a cut from the Led Zeppelin CD, as you might guess from my nick name I really listen this music and this is not only 'test file' for me! Whether there is a widespread problem or not, what you're describing is definitely atypical. considering that, it sounds like you have a problem with your unit, maybe corrupted firmware? Or a particular device is interacting poorly with the XMC? If your literally getting problems every day something is going on in your particular case because I can assure you that's not the typical XMC experience. |
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 13:36:35 GMT -5
37 people said yes, but how many said no? Does it matter? Unless it's zero I don't know how you can say with any certainty that this plagues every XMC. Test files are specifically exist for this. It is not zero because not everyone get's to conditions where it shows itself. Is this a compatibility issue with a certain device? The zero-sample bug that disturbs me the most is a bug in the XMC-1 and not a compatibility issue - it is reproducible with any source that is able to pass content bit-perfectly (Windows WDM mixer drivers surely are not) and through any digital input (HDMI, S/PDIF, USB). KeithL confirmed that. Also several XMC-1 users who bothered to test (or already get noticed the problem but wasn't sure it is XMC-1). Only one user to date claimed that his unit is able to reproduce chromatic scale test without trouble, but I suspect it wasn't bit-perfect transport. Everyone else bothered to test instead of blind denying were able to reproduce it on their XMC-1s. There is DSD bug that is probably a compatibility issue with some devices, but nobody (except Emotiva) knows where the bug actually is - in the XMC or those third-party devices... It is claimed to be fixed in next firmware, but I personally not affected as I don't have any DSDs. It's just weird. I listen to a lot of different sources in a lot of different formats and I've never witnessed anything like this. You are lucky. Those bugs are content related. Good mix usually doesn't expose this. And if you only deal with good mixes (most blu-ray movies are). But not every mix is perfect (and a lot of CDs are problematic, also TV content, especially translated one - original tracks are usually good, but translation often done not as good)... And for me, as I told - there is no day in front of the XMC-1 without the problem being audibly exposed. |
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Post by geebo on Sept 4, 2015 13:38:12 GMT -5
Can't help it if I get no chirping. I am truly sorry for that. Maybe it's because I find test files so boring. I waste my time with movies and music. Old fashioned I guess. One more example of how rude Emotiva evangelists can be. So. For everyone. If you buy Emotiva product, find a problem with it, then dare to mention it... This is what you will get in response... Lies and tries to humiliate you. As in this case. For you, geebo. You know very well that I want to waste my time with movies and music and enjoy clean undistorted sound... but instead of that I am presented with a device that suddenly distorts the sound with clicks, skips... I have to present test files (most of those ARE MUSIC, you should know this too)... And I worked on a software product company and know how good test is important - no way to test - no problem fixed, once there is good test - problem is fixed. As simple as that. We were really thankful to those customers that sent us good test. Here I get instead ugly dirty jokes and disrespect. For hard work that NOBODY ELSE have done. All this to make YOUR unit better. You like to live in sh** and tell how good it smells? You deserve it! I DO NOT get clicks, skips, pops or whatever it is you get. I get clean undistorted and uninterrupted sound. DSD thumping is the only thing I've gotten. I'm sorry if you have a problem with others not having problems. That's what it comes down to. You want everyone to jump on the igorzep bandwagon and start throwing grenades just because you say they should. Not everyone has experienced the problems you have. That's just the way it is. You're going to have to learn a way to come to grips with that. |
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 13:42:56 GMT -5
If your literally getting problems every day something is going on in your particular case. A lot of you guys watching National Geographic HD channels with russian track?  But it really often the case with Compact Discs. And every time I check it is the zero-samples that cause this. And zero-samples are confirmed to cause problems with the XMC-1. It is NEITHER compatibility NOR my particular unit problem. |
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 13:59:03 GMT -5
DSD thumping is the only thing I've gotten I don't have this problem, sorry... I would jump on your bandwagon if I had it (forgetting to tell "but I didn't even tried to listen a single SACD"). It is your personal problem and please do not tell me about it. I don't want to know about it. I don't want to hear about it. It is not the XMC-1 problem. As I don't experience it it is probably your XMC-1 is broken.. or compatibility problem. Sorry. Very sorry. I don't know how to apologise more. My english is not so perfect, but I would if I can. |
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 4, 2015 13:59:06 GMT -5
If your literally getting problems every day something is going on in your particular case. A lot of you guys watching National Geographic HD channels with russian track? But it really often the case with Compact Discs. And every time I check it is the zero-samples that cause this. And zero-samples are confirmed to cause problems with the XMC-1. It is NEITHER compatibility NOR my particular unit problem. If i were you i will stop using it completely , return it, sell it, give it to somebody or dump it in the garbage so you will save yourself tons of aggravation. |
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tknice
Sensei
Movies!
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Post by tknice on Sept 4, 2015 14:00:45 GMT -5
Much of your harping is also when using test files and in the real world most folks don't sit around listening to test files. And please stop collectively-aggressively distribute lies about me! Every day I use the XMC-1 I experience the problem. All with real content. On real music files. On TV. The only days I don't hear it is when I don't use XMC-1. And NO, I don't listen test files every day... except that (some of) those music files I find exposing the problem are becoming test files. One of the files is a cut from the Led Zeppelin CD, as you might guess from my nick name I really listen this music and this is not only 'test file' for me! It sucks you are having problems igorzep and can't enjoy your system--I would be pissed too. I chimed in saying I have no issues, I don't know, I guess because I wanted to say there are XMC-1 "setups" that are not doing it. Could be the way I'm using it or the unit itself, I have no idea. I'll admit, I use two different inputs which are 2 channel playback from the miniplug on the front and then HDMI-in (audio only) from my video processor. I mostly stream ripped things or pay services like netflix from the xbox one. Hell, I rarely even play a bluray or CD any more. Tell me how to reproduce the pops and clicks and I'd be happy to contribute what I can to help figure out what is causing it. Did you say Emo can reproduce it? If so, then I would suspect a firmware fix is coming. |
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Post by geebo on Sept 4, 2015 14:09:38 GMT -5
DSD thumping is the only thing I've gotten I don't have this problem, sorry... I would jump on your bandwagon if I had it (forgetting to tell "but I didn't even tried to listen a single SACD"). It is your personal problem and please do not tell me about it. I don't want to know about it. I don't want to hear about it. It is not the XMC-1 problem. As I don't experience it it is probably your XMC-1 is broken.. or compatibility problem. Sorry. Very sorry. I don't know how to apologise more. My english is not so perfect, but I would if I can. What bandwagon? Where have I harped ad nauseum on DSD thumping? Where have I insisted that everyone has the issue? |
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Post by nickwin on Sept 4, 2015 14:24:37 GMT -5
37 people said yes, but how many said no? Does it matter? Unless it's zero I don't know how you can say with any certainty that this plagues every XMC. Test files are specifically exist for this. It is not zero because not everyone get's to conditions where it shows itself. Is this a compatibility issue with a certain device? The zero-sample bug that disturbs me the most is a bug in the XMC-1 and not a compatibility issue - it is reproducible with any source that is able to pass content bit-perfectly (Windows WDM mixer drivers surely are not) and through any digital input (HDMI, S/PDIF, USB). KeithL confirmed that. Also several XMC-1 users who bothered to test (or already get noticed the problem but wasn't sure it is XMC-1). Only one user to date claimed that his unit is able to reproduce chromatic scale test without trouble, but I suspect it wasn't bit-perfect transport. Everyone else bothered to test instead of blind denying were able to reproduce it on their XMC-1s. There is DSD bug that is probably a compatibility issue with some devices, but nobody (except Emotiva) knows where the bug actually is - in the XMC or those third-party devices... It is claimed to be fixed in next firmware, but I personally not affected as I don't have any DSDs. It's just weird. I listen to a lot of different sources in a lot of different formats and I've never witnessed anything like this. You are lucky. Those bugs are content related. Good mix usually doesn't expose this. And if you only deal with good mixes (most blu-ray movies are). But not every mix is perfect (and a lot of CDs are problematic, also TV content, especially translated one - original tracks are usually good, but translation often done not as good)... And for me, as I told - there is no day in front of the XMC-1 without the problem being audibly exposed.
Does it matter? No, for the same reason that saying 37 people said yes doesn't prove that every XMC has this bug. That was my point.
The zero-sample bug that disturbs me the most is a bug in the XMC-1 and not a compatibility issue - it is reproducible with any source that is able to pass content bit-perfectly (Windows WDM mixer drivers surely are not) and through any digital input (HDMI, S/PDIF, USB). KeithL confirmed that. Also several XMC-1 users who bothered to test (or already get noticed the problem but wasn't sure it is XMC-1). Only one user to date claimed that his unit is able to reproduce chromatic scale test without trouble, but I suspect it wasn't bit-perfect transport. Everyone else bothered to test instead of blind denying were able to reproduce it on their XMC-1s. I wasn't aware of any of these issues but duly noted. That doesn't change the fact that you seem to be experience much more frequent problems than the average XMC user, which point to the fact that something is going on in your specific case. I don't only listen to blu-rays. I also watch cable tv and over 1000 redbook cds. Both bit streamed from my Oppo via HDMI and over Toslink from my Macbook Pro. More hours a week than I would care to admit. And Ive literally never heard any of these noises. If your getting them every day and I never get them obviously something has changed. I do listen to just about everything in its native format. Maybe that has something to do with it. The bottom line is regardless of whether there is a bug that needs to be fixed or not, what your experiencing sucks and seems to be abnormally bad so I would look at your specific case. How and why its different than others set ups. |
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 4, 2015 14:28:56 GMT -5
I have not heard chirping on my system when listening to music from various sources including CD/SACD/Squeezebox Duet/AM/FM tuner. I have listened to physical media on my Oppo BDP-103, Emotiva ERC-1, and Sony DVP-S9000ES.
The only real noise I have heard is when switching channels on the Directv HR34. It does not always happen, but I will hear louder than usual, half second syncing type noise.
I know that Keith did mention problems with the Oppo and DSD and that they were working to release this whenever we get a firmware update.
Igorzep - I don't believe people are trying to silence you on this issue. I think people are just being honest on what they are hearing with their systems.
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 15:01:36 GMT -5
What bandwagon? Where have I harped ad nauseum on DSD thumping? Where have I insisted that everyone has the issue? When I said about "we are waiting for this set of problems to be fixed"... I've included the DSD thump too. Actually I know at least 4 problems leading to thumps/clicks/pops (whatever one names them) at different times and of different loudness/character (three of them are confirmed to be general problem, fourth one - I don't know the reason yet). You said you don't have any problems and attacked me with unpleasant jokes. So, you don't want the DSD thump to be fixed too. Just a logical conclusion. So, I am leaving your bandwagon as you don't care. I still care about three other issues. |
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Post by geebo on Sept 4, 2015 15:24:34 GMT -5
What bandwagon? Where have I harped ad nauseum on DSD thumping? Where have I insisted that everyone has the issue? When I said about "we are waiting for this set of problems to be fixed"... I've included the DSD thump too. Actually I know at least 4 problems leading to thumps/clicks/pops (whatever one names them) at different times and of different loudness/character (three of them are confirmed to be general problem, fourth one - I don't know the reason yet). You said you don't have any problems and attacked me with unpleasant jokes. So, you don't want the DSD thump to be fixed too. Just a logical conclusion. So, I am leaving your bandwagon as you don't care. I still care about three other issues. Actually the DSD thump no longer affects me. I found that I prefer Dirac over direct DSD decoding in the XMC. So if it got fixed or not I would likely never know if it weren't for reading about it here. No one has said you don't have the problems you describe. But you seem to want everyone to acknowledge they have the same problems you do. Many of us simply do not. Why can't you accept that? |
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 15:27:16 GMT -5
Tell me how to reproduce the pops and clicks and I'd be happy to contribute what I can to help figure out what is causing it. The test files that demonstrate the zero-samples bug are there. The "chromatic scale" is the synthetic test but the most revealing one (as it has zero-samples repetitive over short amount of time). If you play it bit-perfectly you will easily hear pops and skips (most of the low-frequency part of chirps are skipped). Two other files are cuts of CD so the pause between track is in between. There are two quiet clicks on XMC-1 when track transitions and also audible skip of the beginning of next track. While clicks are quiet they are still very vell audible in noiseless environment, Dirac on, Loudness on even at moderate listening levels. At noisy daytime it might be that clicks become inaudible, but when they are and this happens between every track on a CD... this becomes extremely annoying. Also when it happens 5 times in a row in 10 seconds when commercials change on a TV - it gets way too disturbing. Also on XBMC (and I believe some users reported on XBOX happens something similar) when navigating the menu feedback sounds gets distorted or skipped at all. Sometimes I get a few feedback ticks from the XBMC through XMC-1, but mostly there is just silence instead of them (XBMC with WDM Exclusive mode configured to infinitely keep the connection to the sink open). Did you say Emo can reproduce it? If so, then I would suspect a firmware fix is coming. Yes, they can. KeithL confirmed he tried it on several of their units and can reproduce it on all of them and it is neither source, transport nor mode dependent. About the fix... his response is not so promising.  If he has any good news and can comment on this it would be very welcome. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Sept 4, 2015 15:30:35 GMT -5
Everybody...... PLAY NICE...... OR ELSE ! 
OK.....
1) The "popping between tracks on DSD" is an issue that we've been aware of for some time. As it turns out, it seems to be caused by some incorrect data flagging from certain source devices. However, it doesn't really matter because we figured out how to eliminate the problem. The code to fix that was there in firmware v2.0, but got "disabled" in v3.0; we put it back the way it should be, so that problem will be entirely gone again in the next firmware release (and we do apologize for taking so long to get that out - but you're not going to get it until it's working right).
2) When you start a digital data stream, or when you switch between tracks of different sample rates, the XMC-1 mutes, and the muting remains on for about 120 milliseconds (+/- 10 msec). This will sometimes bite off the first note of the next track when it starts. While we continue to try and minimize how often this occurs, and to reduce the time as much as we can, there is no perfect solution for this. (If we reduce the mute time too much then we risk some really nasty noise getting through when the data stream breaks and restarts.) This type of muting should never occur during a music track.
3) We have confirmed that strings of digital zeros inside otherwise normal audio tracks sometimes cause the XMC-1 to digitally mute. While this is not especially unusual behavior, and in fact most DAC chips have an option to do it, we would prefer that the XMC-1 not do it - because, when this happens, it may also bite off a few milliseconds of music. We have confirmed that the XMC-1's overall muting isn't the cause. We have also confirmed that the DACs in the XMC_1 aren't doing it (that function is disabled in our DACs). Therefore, we have concluded that this is probably being caused by the code in one of the DSPs - which is hard-coded into the DSP itself. Since most recordings use dithering, very few song tracks actually have stretches of digital zeros which would trigger this behavior, and, of those, most probably have a short lead-up to the audio after the silent space such that the muting is fully off before the music starts again. This means that it only happens with a few tracks, and, to put it bluntly, only one or two people have noticed it at all. (Unfortunately, since it seems to originate with the DSP code, which we don't have access to change, it seems unlikely that we will be able to resolve this.)
4) We did receive two sample files which exhibit a rather worse problem - where there are significant dropouts at certain points in the test pattern. These dropouts are far more unpleasant and noticeable than a split second of silence. However, while we've been able to confirm that these occur with the XMC-1, and also confirm that our other DACs seem able to play the files OK, we have NOT been able to confirm that sort of problem with any music files we have.
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 15:38:36 GMT -5
No, for the same reason that saying 37 people said yes doesn't prove that every XMC has this bug. That was my point. But if you randomly select several devices from different batches starting from the beginning of it's production, test them for presence of the issue with a well reproducible test and this test shows that all of them are affected... There is very high probability that all other units, or at minimum most of them behave the same way. This is my point. That doesn't change the fact that you seem to be experience much more frequent problems than the average XMC user May be I just the most vocal of them  |
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 4, 2015 15:47:00 GMT -5
Everybody...... PLAY NICE...... OR ELSE !
OK.....
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Post by nickwin on Sept 4, 2015 15:49:29 GMT -5
Everybody...... PLAY NICE...... OR ELSE !
OK.....
1) The "popping between tracks on DSD" is an issue that we've been aware of for some time. As it turns out, it seems to be caused by some incorrect data flagging from certain source devices. However, it doesn't really matter because we figured out how to eliminate the problem. The code to fix that was there in firmware v2.0, but got "disabled" in v3.0; we put it back the way it should be, so that problem will be entirely gone again in the next firmware release (and we do apologize for taking so long to get that out - but you're not going to get it until it's working right).
2) When you start a digital data stream, or when you switch between tracks of different sample rates, the XMC-1 mutes, and the muting remains on for about 120 milliseconds (+/- 10 msec). This will sometimes bite off the first note of the next track when it starts. While we continue to try and minimize how often this occurs, and to reduce the time as much as we can, there is no perfect solution for this. (If we reduce the mute time too much then we risk some really nasty noise getting through when the data stream breaks and restarts.) This type of muting should never occur during a music track.
3) We have confirmed that strings of digital zeros inside otherwise normal audio tracks sometimes cause the XMC-1 to digitally mute. While this is not especially unusual behavior, and in fact most DAC chips have an option to do it, we would prefer that the XMC-1 not do it - because, when this happens, it may also bite off a few milliseconds of music. We have confirmed that the XMC-1's overall muting isn't the cause. We have also confirmed that the DACs in the XMC_1 aren't doing it (that function is disabled in our DACs). Therefore, we have concluded that this is probably being caused by the code in one of the DSPs - which is hard-coded into the DSP itself. Since most recordings use dithering, very few song tracks actually have stretches of digital zeros which would trigger this behavior, and, of those, most probably have a short lead-up to the audio after the silent space such that the muting is fully off before the music starts again. This means that it only happens with a few tracks, and, to put it bluntly, only one or two people have noticed it at all. (Unfortunately, since it seems to originate with the DSP code, which we don't have access to change, it seems unlikely that we will be able to resolve this.)
4) We did receive two sample files which exhibit a rather worse problem - where there are significant dropouts at certain points in the test pattern. These dropouts are far more unpleasant and noticeable than a split second of silence. However, while we've been able to confirm that these occur with the XMC-1, and also confirm that our other DACs seem able to play the files OK, we have NOT been able to confirm that sort of problem with any music files we have.
Thanks for the concise post Keith. Is #4 also a bug in the DSP code (in other words unfixable)? Because if we're talking anything like what I experienced with the UMC these noises can be very unpleasant even if it only happens once in a few years. |
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Post by igorzep on Sept 4, 2015 16:57:02 GMT -5
Therefore, we have concluded that this is probably being caused by the code in one of the DSPs - which is hard-coded into the DSP itself. Then asking TI why their chips/code are losing some samples from an audio stream could help. They should be working on bug-fixing their code too. Since most recordings use dithering, very few song tracks actually have stretches of digital zeros which would trigger this behavior Then I am very lucky to get all of them that don't dither... at least the space in between tracks is undithered quite often. Some TV channels too seems not to bother dithering gaps in between scenes when mixing audio for them. 4) We did receive two sample files which exhibit a rather worse problem - where there are significant dropouts at certain points in the test pattern. These dropouts are far more unpleasant and noticeable than a split second of silence. However, while we've been able to confirm that these occur with the XMC-1, and also confirm that our other DACs seem able to play the files OK, we have NOT been able to confirm that sort of problem with any music files we have. Could you share them or explain how it sounds? May be it is related to the loud high-frequency static noise I sometimes hear on loud scenes on some TV channels... I wasn't yet able to investigate where is the source of the problem (seems complicated to do as always happens at unexpected time). It is really far more unpleasant, but as it is from TV I am unable to record the stream to be able to reproduce/investigate it. But it hasn't happened with other AVR connected the same way before. It mainly happens on National Geographic HD set of channels - audio tracks with russian translation. So you hardly will be able to get them too. If it is the same issue and you have the test files to replicate... then it is another issue that happens in real life too. |
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If he has any good news and can comment on this it would be very welcome.
