|
|
Post by rtg97229 on Mar 5, 2016 19:34:56 GMT -5
Rtg, could please tell us the specific tube amps you have personally auditioned, with what speakers, with what music and in what rooms? It would help us understand your impressions and conclusions. More important than my well dampened music room or Quad 2905s is the use of an audio analyzer. Some times I get access to an audio precision analyzer and can do something far more reliable than listen with expectation bias. I can actually measure performance. I have sold every tube amp and preamp (some of them on the Emo Lounge even) and at risk of sounding like I work for Emotiva marketing; look at what I kept. I don't dislike anyone or even think them stupid for enjoying the distortion from tubes. To the contrary I would like a product to exist that gives them the sound they want in real time for less money. Anyway it is just a suggestion I made and was not intended to take over the thread. |
|
|
|
Post by yves on Mar 5, 2016 19:53:29 GMT -5
Rtg, could please tell us the specific tube amps you have personally auditioned, with what speakers, with what music and in what rooms? It would help us understand your impressions and conclusions. More important than my well dampened music room or Quad 2905s is the use of an audio analyzer. Some times I get access to an audio precision analyzer and can do something far more reliable than listen with expectation bias. I can actually measure performance. I have sold every tube amp and preamp (some of them on the Emo Lounge even) and at risk of sounding like I work for Emotiva marketing; look at what I kept. I don't dislike anyone or even think them stupid for enjoying the distortion from tubes. To the contrary I would like a product to exist that gives them the sound they want in real time for less money. Anyway it is just a suggestion I made and was not intended to take over the thread. No offense, but... if your room is well dampened, I think you should maybe use your engineering skills to demoisturize. |
|
|
|
Post by rtg97229 on Mar 5, 2016 20:04:31 GMT -5
More important than my well dampened music room or Quad 2905s is the use of an audio analyzer. Some times I get access to an audio precision analyzer and can do something far more reliable than listen with expectation bias. I can actually measure performance. I have sold every tube amp and preamp (some of them on the Emo Lounge even) and at risk of sounding like I work for Emotiva marketing; look at what I kept. I don't dislike anyone or even think them stupid for enjoying the distortion from tubes. To the contrary I would like a product to exist that gives them the sound they want in real time for less money. Anyway it is just a suggestion I made and was not intended to take over the thread. No offense, but... if your room is well dampened, I think you should maybe use your engineering skills to demoisturize. I think it is obvious what I was saying. If you where considering becoming a comedian I would recommend keeping your day job. |
|
|
|
Post by yves on Mar 5, 2016 20:23:33 GMT -5
No offense, but... if your room is well dampened, I think you should maybe use your engineering skills to demoisturize. I think it is obvious what I was saying. If you where considering becoming a comedian I would recommend keeping your day job. No, not considering becoming a comedian. Just having a good laugh. |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 5, 2016 21:46:38 GMT -5
We're still waiting, rtg......
|
|
|
|
Post by rtg97229 on Mar 6, 2016 20:21:19 GMT -5
We're still waiting, rtg...... No, you are not waiting. You have already made up your mind and you don't understand why me listing amplifiers that I have tested is unimportant. You clearly don't understand what conditions are relevant to testing an amplifier either. Don't worry though, when products to emulate the tube sound in real time become popular I am confidant that there will still be a market for people who want tubes just like there is a market for people who like and enjoy old cars. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 7, 2016 11:04:20 GMT -5
The new Gen3 amps will be shipping by or before the end of the month.... the month of March.... THIS MARCH (as in "within the month")....  I think it's fair to say that they're on the back burner - but they haven't officially been cancelled. It's nice to finally get a response from Emotiva. Thank you. Now I know not to wait for a possible 2 channel tube preamp. Now if we could get some info on the release of the G3 amps that have been announced AND when we could expect to hear about the other six or so products yet to be announced. I don't suppose you could tell me if a (strictly) 2 channel pre (with an outstanding phono section) is in the mix that might be nicer than the XSP-1 G2? Then I'd know if I can plan on putting the XSP-1 in my HT system and get a new pre for my reference system.  |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 7, 2016 11:27:04 GMT -5
Precisely... if your reference point is ABSOLUTELY NEUTRAL, then ANY change is simply a form of distortion.... And, with the current level of technology, I think it's pretty fair to say that good solid state equipment can be made quite close to absolutely neutral (nothing is perfect, which is why even good solid state amps sound a tiny bit different from each other, but the major differences that you hear in tube equipment are in fact distortion). Now, that's not to say that distortion can't be pleasant sounding. And it's even possible that, assuming no recording is ever perfect either, adding some of one or another type of distortion may produce a result that sounds more like a live performance - but the fact remains that you are adding distortion in one place in an attempt to make up for something that went missing in another place. (And, since what went missing is really gone for good, what you're doing is filling the gap with something that you hope is a reasonable facsimile of what you believe was there to begin with.) To put it bluntly: wine is NOT water, and it's not "better water"; it's water with spoiled grape juice in it... which doesn't at all prevent you or me from enjoying it... but don't go claiming that it's "higher grade water". It is in fact something that was made from water - by adding a whole bunch of other stuff. Now, I do know some people who insist that, because the distortion characteristics of tube equipment vary in some quite complex ways, the available simulations of tube sound are less than perfect. (I'm inclined to think that you COULD make a really accurate digital simulation of "tube sound", but I do know some folks who I consider credible who claim that they haven't found one yet. Since it's not something that I'm personally looking for I can't speak from personal experience there.) Also note that the types of coloration produced by line-level tubes (like in preamps) are different than those produced by tube power amps with output transformers. (This means that, assuming you use a solid state power amp, adding a tube preamp will add one aspect or type of tube sound, but will not make it sound exactly like a tube power amp. The same is true for amplifiers that include a hybrid driver or line stage. This works out well for many people because the coloration added by a tube driver stage is generally the part that more people find pleasant.) (If someone can actually define what they mean by "lifelike" or "open" - and it involves something other than noise, phase response, frequency response, or some type of distortion, than they will revolutionize the audio industry - but nobody's done it yet in almost 100 years now.... ) Because there is way more to the tube experience than "distortion"? It's more the lifelife and open sound that the tubes themselves add to the experience IMHO. There really is no magic pixi dust in the tubes. Every aspect of the sound can be emulated in the digital domain. If people need to believe in magic to justify their lack of understanding that is ok. There is clearly a market for such people. For people who want the same affect for less money there are programs for adding the tube sound to files but I still think a real time product would be nice. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 7, 2016 11:39:47 GMT -5
There are some two-channel products with more features scheduled. However, at the moment, I don't know of any plans for a strictly two-channel preamp "above" the XSP-1 Gen2. I can tell you that the next-in-line tube product would be a power amp (probably a large monoblock). There are also plans for a smallish two-channel tube power amp. (But neither of those is moving at present.) There are also plans for a two-channel tube preamp... but it is on the list AFTER the power amps... so is on a very far back burner at the moment. To be totally absolutely honest with you..... Putting a product into production isn't cheap - especially when it's a "niche technology" like tubes..... and, while a few of you have a lot of interest in tube gear, there is serious doubt that ENOUGH people would buy them to justify the manufacturing cost. I think it's fair to say that they're on the back burner - but they haven't officially been cancelled. It's nice to finally get a response from Emotiva. Thank you. Now I know not to wait for a possible 2 channel tube preamp. Now if we could get some info on the release of the G3 amps that have been announced AND when we could expect to hear about the other six or so products yet to be announced. I don't suppose you could tell me if a (strictly) 2 channel pre (with an outstanding phono section) is in the mix that might be nicer than the XSP-1 G2? Then I'd know if I can plan on putting the XSP-1 in my HT system and get a new pre for my reference system. |
|
guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
|
Post by guitarforlife on Mar 7, 2016 12:00:21 GMT -5
Because there is way more to the tube experience than "distortion"? It's more the lifelife and open sound that the tubes themselves add to the experience IMHO. There really is no magic pixi dust in the tubes. Every aspect of the sound can be emulated in the digital domain. If people need to believe in magic to justify their lack of understanding that is ok. There is clearly a market for such people. For people who want the same affect for less money there are programs for adding the tube sound to files but I still think a real time product would be nice. You my friend are so wrong with that statement. In the land of guitar I have read and bought so many modeling amps that are suppose to sound JUST like tubs it is sickening. Guess what they don't. One thing tubes have dynamics. As anyone who has never played guitar though a tube amp you will never understand how I use the words Dynamics. No there is no pixie dust in tubes but there is no magic in tube emulation either. You are just wrong in thinking that digitally they can represent a tube. If you want to believe that it is fine but I hole heartily disagree. If you don't beilive me go ask people like Eddie Van Halan, Steve Vai, Joe Bonamassa or the other thousands of pro guitar players to trade their Marshall's, Fender's, or Mesa Boogies for tube emulated digital amps. Tubes are tube that's the long and short of it. |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 7, 2016 12:20:27 GMT -5
Remember that solid state was developed in audio applications to produce arms war power and imo have never sounded as good as a good tube amp. A transistor is an underdriven switch in its essence, remember........
Blaze linear, anyone?
|
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Mar 7, 2016 12:43:02 GMT -5
Remember that solid state was developed in audio applications to produce arms war power and imo have never sounded as good as a good tube amp. A transistor is an underdriven switch in its essence, remember........ Blaze linear, anyone? FLAME Linear: watch your vc catch fire and spew sparks and flames. |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Mar 7, 2016 12:45:27 GMT -5
There are some two-channel products with more features scheduled. However, at the moment, I don't know of any plans for a strictly two-channel preamp "above" the XSP-1 Gen2. I can tell you that the next-in-line tube product would be a power amp (probably a large monoblock). There are also plans for a smallish two-channel tube power amp. (But neither of those is moving at present.) There are also plans for a two-channel tube preamp... but it is on the list AFTER the power amps... so is on a very far back burner at the moment. To be totally absolutely honest with you..... Putting a product into production isn't cheap - especially when it's a "niche technology" like tubes..... and, while a few of you have a lot of interest in tube gear, there is serious doubt that ENOUGH people would buy them to justify the manufacturing cost. Thanks for the responses Keith. I have the XSP-1 G2 and its a great pre but I have no use for the HT system. I ask myself, what else could they do with the space and cost for strictly 2-channel. |
|
|
|
Post by rtg97229 on Mar 7, 2016 13:30:46 GMT -5
You my friend are so wrong with that statement. In the land of guitar I have read and bought so many modeling amps that are suppose to sound JUST like tubs it is sickening. Guess what they don't. One thing tubes have dynamics. As anyone who has never played guitar though a tube amp you will never understand how I use the words Dynamics. No there is no pixie dust in tubes but there is no magic in tube emulation either. You are just wrong in thinking that digitally they can represent a tube. If you want to believe that it is fine but I hole heartily disagree. If you don't beilive me go ask people like Eddie Van Halan, Steve Vai, Joe Bonamassa or the other thousands of pro guitar players to trade their Marshall's, Fender's, or Mesa Boogies for tube emulated digital amps. Tubes are tube that's the long and short of it. I find it strange that you prefer use the preference of a talented musician who hasn't the time for technical details over actually understanding the technology. That said I have no problem with products that fit your wants and desires being on the market. I suggested a consumer device because I think it would be cost effective and useful. I am well aware that harmonic distortion can be very present with guitar recording and I have no grudge against whatever method you choose to add that distortion. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 7, 2016 14:43:22 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot of confusion here between VERY different things.....
Tubes and transistors are both simply different types of semiconductors... and each has somewhat different transfer functions.
And some transistors have relatively low gain - just like tubes; and some tubes have very high gain - and were designed to be used as switches.
Some "modeling" amplifiers are just a solid state amplifier which a circuit in it designed to "act more or less like a tube".
Since the distortions and colorations caused by tubes are quite complex, most of these circuits don't come especially close.
It probably makes more sense to just built a little tube amplifier, then boost its output with a clean solid state amp that doesn't alter the sound.
In the case of a guitar amplifier, since the output stage is also going to color the sound,you need to mimic that coloration as well.
Which makes the whole process even more complicated.
Now, an amplifier that actually simulates the way tubes sound using a DSP (computer) should be able to do a very good job of duplicating the sound.
However, precisely how close it is will depend on how well it's programmed, and how much processing power is available for handling the calculations.
(And I suspect that most of the commercial software you find out there is using a pretty rough approximation.)
And, to be totally honest, most people who write these programs see them as a sort of specific special effect.
So, as long as it "sounds nice", they aren't especially worried whether it closely matches the sound of a real tube or not.
When people talk about things like"dynamics" and "impact" and all that, those are simply descriptive words for certain electrical characteristics.
For example, our human hearing tends to associate distortion with loudness; when something gets more distorted, in our minds we hear it as "louder".
Solid state amplifiers tend to remain very clean until they approach clipping, and which point their distortion rises suddenly.
In contrast, tube amplifiers tend to have what's called "a monotonic distortion curve" - which means that their distortion increases gradually as you turn up the power.
Therefore, as you turn a ten watt solid state amp up from 1 watt to five watts, it gets louder, but the distortion remains largely the same.
But, as you turn a ten watt tube amplifier up from 1 watt to five watts, it gets both louder and more distorted.
And, since the extra distortion also makes the amp seem louder, overall the tube amp seems louder at the same five watts of output.
And, so, the loudness INCREASE with the tube amp seems greater for the same change in output level - which is sometimes described as "sounding more dynamic".
And, yes, you CAN model this with a reasonably accurate model - but it won't happen with a "simple first-order model".
(And I have no idea which, if any, modelling processors get this right, and which, if any, don't... but it's certainly possible.)
|
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 7, 2016 16:34:34 GMT -5
Keith, just fyi, most contemporary modellers do in fact use powerful dsp processing, still not good enough.
With all respect, perhaps you may find it useful to acquaint yourself with the state of the art, say BIAS modelling amps by Positivegrid for example.....from their site:
"Positive Grid teamed up the world’s brightest DSP engineers and component level modeling and matching authorities, working with the world’s leading producers, world-class engineers, and mixing & mastering gurus to develop some breakthrough technologies to bring software plug-ins to the next level."
and:
"BIAS Desktop is the world’s most accurate, thorough and versatile guitar-amp modeler and designer. Its advanced amp-modeling engine captures the warmth and feel of real tube amps in every aspect, component by component."
And still, alas, not tubes......
|
|
guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
|
Post by guitarforlife on Mar 7, 2016 20:26:56 GMT -5
Keith, just fyi, most contemporary modellers do in fact use powerful dsp processing, still not good enough. With all respect, perhaps you may find it useful to acquaint yourself with the state of the art, say BIAS modelling amps by Positivegrid for example.....from their site: "Positive Grid teamed up the world’s brightest DSP engineers and component level modeling and matching authorities, working with the world’s leading producers, world-class engineers, and mixing & mastering gurus to develop some breakthrough technologies to bring software plug-ins to the next level." and: "BIAS Desktop is the world’s most accurate, thorough and versatile guitar-amp modeler and designer. Its advanced amp-modeling engine captures the warmth and feel of real tube amps in every aspect, component by component." And still, alas, not tubes...... THANK YOU !!!! |
|
guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
|
Post by guitarforlife on Mar 7, 2016 20:37:44 GMT -5
You my friend are so wrong with that statement. In the land of guitar I have read and bought so many modeling amps that are suppose to sound JUST like tubs it is sickening. Guess what they don't. One thing tubes have dynamics. As anyone who has never played guitar though a tube amp you will never understand how I use the words Dynamics. No there is no pixie dust in tubes but there is no magic in tube emulation either. You are just wrong in thinking that digitally they can represent a tube. If you want to believe that it is fine but I hole heartily disagree. If you don't beilive me go ask people like Eddie Van Halan, Steve Vai, Joe Bonamassa or the other thousands of pro guitar players to trade their Marshall's, Fender's, or Mesa Boogies for tube emulated digital amps. Tubes are tube that's the long and short of it. I find it strange that you prefer use the preference of a talented musician who hasn't the time for technical details over actually understanding the technology. That said I have no problem with products that fit your wants and desires being on the market. I suggested a consumer device because I think it would be cost effective and useful. I am well aware that harmonic distortion can be very present with guitar recording and I have no grudge against whatever method you choose to add that distortion. Sorry, I'm not a robot and neither are my ears. I put more faith in the two ears the good lord gave me then all the charts graphs and computer programs in the world. I have been doing this for over forty years I Have been the guitar expert for the pawn stars when they tour the country as well as the hard core pawn folks. So I would say it is something I am familiar with. you may have skill as a engineer but my education came from doing this over and over I have owned over 500 guitars in my life every "Holy grail" in guitar world, YES I have had one. I have had 100's of TUBE amps and yes there is a difference. So sorry for me technical details mean very little. Just my opinion. All the major amp company's have been trying this for better then a two decades and no one has done it yet. |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 7, 2016 22:59:16 GMT -5
Maybe an emo dsp guitar amp?
|
|
|
|
Post by donh50 on Mar 12, 2016 18:31:14 GMT -5
I read back a bit but still don't know: Is there a line of Emotiva tube products coming? Or did they die when the relationship with Bob Carver fell through?
I have listened to many tube preamps (still own an SP3a1, modified, though in storage now) and amplifiers (ARC D-70, D-75, D-79 <owned>, D-90; CJ; Dynaco <modified, natch>; Eico EL34 <still have, not using>; Futterman; Jadis; MacIntosh <not a fan of the older designs>; Marantz; Scott; others I have forgotten) driving many speaker systems (my own Magnepans, B&W, my Infinity IRS 2, Polk, Quad, Acoustat, Beveridge, Martin Logan, Thiel, Vandersteen, etc. etc. etc.) Tubes have more distortion but the second harmonic dominates and inclusion of even orders (most SS have mostly odd) makes them sound better when they distort. The distortion adds a bit of "bloom" to the sound that people like (me too, though it is less accurate). A tube preamp offers advantages mainly for phono inputs since the overload voltage is typically an order of magnitude or more over a typical transistor stage. That said, tube amplifiers have much higher output impedance than SS amps, and thus interact much more with the speakers. That can be good or bad. They sounded OK with my Maggies, though never had the bass of a big SS amp, but struggled with other speakers including some old B&W 801's, and while they sounded great in the midrange struggled at both ends with ESLs. The HF suffered because the impedance of most ESLs dips very low at HF, and low bass (from panels that had it, like Soundlabs, or even my planar dynamic Maggies) because the higher output impedance led to "loose, sloppy" bass and ill-controlled panel modes. Tubes and midrange is golden; HF's are great if the speaker does not vary much in impedance, and lows I have virtually never had sound as good as with a SS amp.
Guitar amps intentionally distort by overdriving the tubes, not really a valid comparison to an audio amp.
Tubes are not semiconductors, they are thermionic devices. Interestingly enough, if you look at their intrinsic distortion series, a tube has lower distortion than a bipolar transistor (factorial rather than exponential, lower gain but also lower distortion). An ideal MOSFET is even better as its series has only the second-order term; too bad no FET's are ideal. Tubes have much higher output (and sometimes input) impedance so are more load-sensitive (preamps or power amps).
So I love tubes, but SS works better for me. Better bass and cleaner sound. Maybe not as engaging, but over the years I grew to prefer the cleaner SS sound. And got tired of replacing tubes and repairing blown power supplies when the tubes arced and took out other components. My current system (all Magnepan mains and surrounds, Rythmik subs, Emotiva XMC-1 and amplifiers) sounds about as good as any I've had, and the money I saved on tube gear can go to music and movies. Or, more likely, the kid's college funds and our retirement fund.
IME/IMO - Don
|
|
