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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 18:52:31 GMT -5
Wow that is allot of work for short yardage there Garbulky. The DC-1 running USB Async doesn't even involve the computer's clock, and reclocks in the DC-1. USB is easy peasy. Also allot of high end computers supply SPDIF support along with 7.1 audio support. I know this also as I am building a new computer. Also why is there fan noise? What are you streaming out that is making your computer work so hard anyway. I run music, never hear fan noise and my computer is right next to me. Hmmm. Interesting. hi VC! I am not sure what you are talking about fan noise or CPU strain? Unfortunately I am not interested in USB 2. I am specifically looking at AES or BNC PCI card. It must exist! Otherwise why are all the dac manufacturers including all those inputs? The reason is I plan to get a reasonably high end schiit dac (yggy). I want to supply it with a signal using eithe AES or EBU. And the reason for the trouble is that I want it to be a dedicated transport. Not some 50 cent add on to a motherboard. Or run off a 25 cent USB port coming off a motherboard with a billioin things going on with its power. Something with a good clock on it. Etc. So a nice dedicated home use card. Now I have seen some PCI express SPDIF only units and they look nice but some people have mentioned the jitter on them isn't amazing. I am willing to spend up to about 300 to 400 but not more because I think that's just a whole lot ot spend on a transport. In reality I'm looking for something about $150. |
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Post by vcautokid on Nov 15, 2015 18:58:51 GMT -5
Hmm, you might want to consult with my friends at Sweetwater Sound for a great interface that might work. Inexpensive, don't really know about that, but yeah sure they exist. I think they sell some solutions. Might be worth a look.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 15, 2015 19:46:58 GMT -5
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 13:13:35 GMT -5
Or run off a 25 cent USB port coming off a motherboard with a billioin things going on with its power. The whole purpose of a well engineered asynchronous USB input on a DAC is to isolate both the DAC and the clock from the "billion things going on with its power". Neither AES/EBU nor BNC S/PDIF can achieve this without delivering a separate clock signal to the DAC via a separate input connector that has been specifically designed for this, and, simply because the Yggy doesn't come with such an input connector, below is a cool video of what it is you are trying to achieve. |
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 13:47:05 GMT -5
Otherwise why are all the dac manufacturers including all those inputs? It makes it look professional. |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 16, 2015 13:55:57 GMT -5
Respectfully I disagree. What I'm trying to achieve is a dedicated transport with good clock chips on it on the PCI card. All of which is acheivable with no running directly in to walls. You are drawing the assumption that I want a separate clock to make it happen via AES. Though that would be nice and may improve jitter. It is not necessary for me.
You obviously have very strong opinions of USB, clocks, and I respect that. Now...both the yggy and the DC-1 do have an asynchronous jitter reducer on their inputs that work with all inputs. Perhaps it's not the same as USB asynch. But maybe it can contribute.
I am more (well somewhat) concerned about having a good hardware clock on the source. And also more concerned of having it be a standalone unit with no DAC of its own doing its own DAC work.
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 15:10:57 GMT -5
Sorry, but affordable PCI cards simply don't have good clocks on them. Period. And no, I am not assuming that you want a separate clock. The trademarked (by Schiit) Adapticlock clock regeneration should be good. Just sayin' their "all-new USB Gen 3 input module, for exceptional USB input performance" (that's exactly what it says on the official product page of Yggy), especially if combined with e.g. the Schiit Wyrd (yes... it's weird but it's Wyrd...), should be more gooder because no clock regeneration. Just the clock of Yggy itself. In its absolute purest imaginable form. The real deal, and nothing less. And, if you read more closely, the Wyrd might actually even fix your sleep mode problem for you. Because here's what they (Schiit) had to say about that. I quote: Or have you had it “drop out” after the computer goes to sleep? (See: schiit.com/products/wyrd ). |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 16, 2015 15:44:09 GMT -5
I haven't bothered with USB since I got SPDIF capability.
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 15:49:35 GMT -5
Exactly. But have you ever wondered why that is?
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Post by garbulky on Nov 16, 2015 16:12:03 GMT -5
Why I stopped with USB? Well I notice the SPDIF from my el cheapo blu ray player sounded better - but only by a bit. Also hassles with drivers etc.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Nov 16, 2015 16:41:48 GMT -5
Why I stopped with USB? Well I notice the SPDIF from my el cheapo blu ray player sounded better - but only by a bit. Also hassles with drivers etc. I agree totally. I started using SPDIF(Toslink) output when I got my XDA-1 and have never moved to USB. For me the primary reason is distance. With my computer at one end of the room and my HT at the other, it would require a 15-20 ft USB cable to connect them. This is too long for USB IMO. I bought a high quality optical cable and I have no problems with 192/24. I would like to have a better SPDIF card in my computer. The one I have, which is on the motherboard, does not support the odd-ball sample rates like 176k and I have some tracks in that format. |
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 18:03:40 GMT -5
Why I stopped with USB? Well I notice the SPDIF from my el cheapo blu ray player sounded better - but only by a bit. Also hassles with drivers etc. Therefore you are wrongfully assuming that the culprit must be USB audio as a whole. An understandable reaction IMO, because like I said, I find it a pity that so many DAC manufacturers are still skimping on the USB input of their new products... to which I can only add that, once you have heard a quality DAC with a *quality* asynchronous USB input, there is very little chance of turning back. That is, except if you are prepared to venture into the much more expensive world of separate clocks and their accompanying DACs. |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 16, 2015 18:27:44 GMT -5
I guess I do have the bias to a certain amount. But at point I did consider getting a standalone PCI card with a USB output on it.
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 18:44:55 GMT -5
Why I stopped with USB? Well I notice the SPDIF from my el cheapo blu ray player sounded better - but only by a bit. Also hassles with drivers etc. I agree totally. I started using SPDIF(Toslink) output when I got my XDA-1 and have never moved to USB. For me the primary reason is distance. With my computer at one end of the room and my HT at the other, it would require a 15-20 ft USB cable to connect them. This is too long for USB IMO. I bought a high quality optical cable and I have no problems with 192/24. I would like to have a better SPDIF card in my computer. The one I have, which is on the motherboard, does not support the odd-ball sample rates like 176k and I have some tracks in that format. The USB input of the XDA-1 isn't exactly what I would call a "quality asynchronous USB input" because, for starters, it isn't asynchronous USB at all, and, on top of that, it's limited to 48 kHz sampling frequency. Whereas in the Yggy, the USB input module alone probably costs more than what the XDA-2 currently sells for (new). Furthermore, distance isn't that much of a problem with USB. Just get a powered USB hub, and hook it up between two 10 ft USB cables. On Windows 7 / 8 / 8.1, I haven't experienced any trouble with the M2Tech OEM USB driver of my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus, nor with the XMOS USB driver of my (also Eastern Electric MiniMax) DAC Supreme. No offense, but... blaming USB audio in these kinds of ways is like blaming carrots for the fact the guy who sold them to you didn't know how to grow carrots, or that you bought apples because you thought they could be oranges. |
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Post by yves on Nov 16, 2015 19:11:39 GMT -5
I guess I do have the bias to a certain amount. But at point I did consider getting a standalone PCI card with a USB output on it. Bias or no bias, the proof is always in the critical listening to everything. Audio is part science, part subjectiveness, and higher cost doesn't guarantee better sound, albeit there are limits to what a given tech can be made to achieve. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Nov 17, 2015 5:05:56 GMT -5
I agree totally. I started using SPDIF(Toslink) output when I got my XDA-1 and have never moved to USB. For me the primary reason is distance. With my computer at one end of the room and my HT at the other, it would require a 15-20 ft USB cable to connect them. This is too long for USB IMO. I bought a high quality optical cable and I have no problems with 192/24. I would like to have a better SPDIF card in my computer. The one I have, which is on the motherboard, does not support the odd-ball sample rates like 176k and I have some tracks in that format. The USB input of the XDA-1 isn't exactly what I would call a "quality asynchronous USB input" because, for starters, it isn't asynchronous USB at all, and, on top of that, it's limited to 48 kHz sampling frequency. Whereas in the Yggy, the USB input module alone probably costs more than what the XDA-2 currently sells for (new). Furthermore, distance isn't that much of a problem with USB. Just get a powered USB hub, and hook it up between two 10 ft USB cables. On Windows 7 / 8 / 8.1, I haven't experienced any trouble with the M2Tech OEM USB driver of my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus, nor with the XMOS USB driver of my (also Eastern Electric MiniMax) DAC Supreme. No offense, but... blaming USB audio in these kinds of ways is like blaming carrots for the fact the guy who sold them to you didn't know how to grow carrots, or that you bought apples because you thought they could be oranges. I’m not blaming anything!!! But, keep in mind one thing, most USB powered hubs do nothing to protect/improve the USB data lines. They are meant solely to provide the additional current required by multiple USB devices connected to a single computer USB output. I doubt that any DAC worth its salt replies on the +5V output provided by the USB line anyway. I’m sure there is a 20 ft USB cable that is sufficiently constructed and shielded to prevent any signal degradation over the distance even though the 5 meter spec still holds. USB driver issues are the main reason for my going with SPDIF in the first place. The XDA-1, long retired, could only do HD over SPDIF. Other driver issues have followed with later Emotiva products. I’m not going to say that one interface is better than any other. I'm happy with what I'm using. |
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Post by yves on Nov 17, 2015 8:56:20 GMT -5
The USB input of the XDA-1 isn't exactly what I would call a "quality asynchronous USB input" because, for starters, it isn't asynchronous USB at all, and, on top of that, it's limited to 48 kHz sampling frequency. Whereas in the Yggy, the USB input module alone probably costs more than what the XDA-2 currently sells for (new). Furthermore, distance isn't that much of a problem with USB. Just get a powered USB hub, and hook it up between two 10 ft USB cables. On Windows 7 / 8 / 8.1, I haven't experienced any trouble with the M2Tech OEM USB driver of my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus, nor with the XMOS USB driver of my (also Eastern Electric MiniMax) DAC Supreme. No offense, but... blaming USB audio in these kinds of ways is like blaming carrots for the fact the guy who sold them to you didn't know how to grow carrots, or that you bought apples because you thought they could be oranges. I’m not blaming anything!!! But, keep in mind one thing, most USB powered hubs do nothing to protect/improve the USB data lines. They are meant solely to provide the additional current required by multiple USB devices connected to a single computer USB output. I doubt that any DAC worth its salt replies on the +5V output provided by the USB line anyway. I’m sure there is a 20 ft USB cable that is sufficiently constructed and shielded to prevent any signal degradation over the distance even though the 5 meter spec still holds. USB driver issues are the main reason for my going with SPDIF in the first place. The XDA-1, long retired, could only do HD over SPDIF. Other driver issues have followed with later Emotiva products. I’m not going to say that one interface is better than any other. I'm happy with what I'm using. Of course you aren't blaming anything.  That was just a figure of speech, but IMO it would be fair to say your view of what can be achieved soundwise with USB audio done right is at least clouded by past experiences that aren't very indicative in that they are primarily based on USB audio done less than right, and probably clouded by a great deal of misinformed and or obsolete conceptions regarding the particular subject of transports and digital connections between the player hardware / frontend and an external DAC unit. As for protecting/improving the USB data lines, yes of course you are probably quite right, even though it can be shown with simple measurements that there are actually a reasonably big number of USB hubs out there that can significantly reduce the USB packet noise that rides these data lines. However, I am afraid you have missed my point, that your remark about your 15 - 20 ft distance requirement seems a little off. archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.htmlarchimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.htmlIMO a DAC the USB input component of which relies on the 5V power output of the USB connection can still be worth its salt if the sonic performance of this DAC combined with a USB "decrapifier" device / separate, quality 5V power source can turn out wonderful for the combined cost. (That is, even though part of me tends to agree with you on this). Driver issues can be a pain, that I can't deny. Then again, should Yggy have USB driver issues, then, especially in view of the price point that we are talking about, my completely logical conclusion would be that Yggy would then obviously be not worth its salt. |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 8, 2017 12:02:18 GMT -5
I finally did it. I ordered the Musiland Digital Times PCI transport with BNC output!!! www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA36T19U0786 Super excited here to actually use a true BNC cable on my DC-1!!! I'm guessing this makes it a balanced transport? I hope this card can make use of WASAPI. Otherwise I'll have to diddle around with figuring out ASIO which I am not looking forward to! Any suggestions on a BNC cable? Are they supposed to be 75 ohm for audio? |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jun 8, 2017 13:42:53 GMT -5
1) A BNC connector is an unbalanced connector, with a single signal lead (it's a high quality equivalent of an RCA connector) (The BNC connector on your DC-1 is basically interchangeable with the RCA Coax digital input - and you can convert from one to the other with a passive adapter). It's main virtue is that it is mechanically very stable - they tend NOT to break or pull apart. NOTE that you can turn the BNC S/PDIF input into an RCA input with the addition of a $5 BNC-to-RCA adapter. You can also buy an adapter cable, with a BNC connector on one end, and an RCA connector on the other. 2) Since the BNC output/input is a S/PDIF digital audio connection, you're looking for a DIGITAL cable... and, yes, it should be 75 ohms. 3) AES/EBU comes in several types..... The AES/EBU connectors on some devices follow a standard called ADAT, and can carry lots of channels of audio, which is what those "octopus" cables are for. The AES/EBU input on the DC-1 is intended for a single stereo signal. (It connects to anything with a stereo AES/EBU output - like the ERC-3.) AES/EBU is just another digital format. It happens to be balanced, and is good for very long cable runs, which is why studios use it. (This is a balanced digital signal connection; it is NOT a "balanced audio connection"; it does not sound different than an unbalanced connection, but supports MUCH longer wires.) There are special AES/EBU digital cables (they are 110 ohm impedance); for short runs and ordinary balanced audio cable will usually work. 4) WASAPI is a Windows audio layer thing... so it should work with almost any Windows-compatible audio card. 5) Some people like ASIO. It has lots of options, but also seems to have lots of ways to NOT work. I prefer a direct USB connection using a WASAPI driver. That combination is simple and usually works well. I finally did it. I ordered the Musiland Digital Times PCI transport with BNC output!!! www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA36T19U0786Super excited here to actually use a true BNC cable on my DC-1!!! I'm guessing this makes it a balanced transport? I hope this card can make use of WASAPI. Otherwise I'll have to diddle around with figuring out ASIO which I am not looking forward to! Any suggestions on a BNC cable? Are they supposed to be 75 ohm for audio? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 8, 2017 15:29:30 GMT -5
What Keith said, BNC locking connector with 75 ohm heavy digital digital cable, single core often with separate neutral and earth shielding, for noise rejection. Good for long runs which is why things like satellite and cable TV boxes use them. In a short run home hifi environment no real advantage over an RCA connector digital cable.
Cheers
Gary
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That was just a figure of speech, but IMO it would be fair to say your view of what can be achieved soundwise with USB audio done right is at least clouded by past experiences that aren't very indicative in that they are primarily based on USB audio done less than right, and probably clouded by a great deal of misinformed and or obsolete conceptions regarding the particular subject of transports and digital connections between the player hardware / frontend and an external DAC unit.
