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Post by garbulky on Nov 13, 2015 15:47:14 GMT -5
I have a windows PC. I would like to utilize the AES and BNC connectors on the DC-1 and eventually the ones on the Schiit Ygdrassil using the PC. What do I need to get that happening? I searched for AES connectors. But then all I got were these scary looking pro soundcards. And the problem there was they had what looked like printer connectors that branched off in to 32 channel break out cables. Also they were horribly expensive. I'm looking for something simpler. A card preferrably that outputs a single XLR connector or a single BNC cable to the DAC. Stuff like this I don't want:  Yeesh! Also...I am looking for advice on a SPDIF only PC card that has good clocks. I.e: the technical specs should be better than say running it out from the motherboard's spdif. Any help would be helpful |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 14, 2015 10:30:20 GMT -5
Morning bump!
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 10:14:02 GMT -5
IMHO you are just wasting your time trying to chase an older tech that has been, for what you are trying to achieve, replaced with something cheaper and better, i.e. asynchronous USB 2.0
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 10:28:21 GMT -5
Hi yves. I'm not too interested in USB. The drivers tend to be buggy with sleep mode with them. Also I guess I never really got drawn to that interface. Though I didn't realize it was superior... Do you have any PCI type USB cards you can reccomend? Or maybe some of the other solutions I mentioned. I think it's strange that Emotiva has a few DACS with these inputs (and quite a few other manufacturers do) but the only source for them appear to be things like Emotiva CD players and no real PC source. |
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ilok
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Post by ilok on Nov 15, 2015 11:42:10 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake.
Until wireless IP audio arrives that is.
(Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well)
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 12:02:44 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake. Until wireless IP audio arrives that is. (Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well) You're talking about the break out cable right? That card is too expensive for me. I was hoping for something a bit cheaper and something with a single XLR cable rather than eight. I use this in my living room. And I can't have eight unused cables hanging off by a tiny DAC. I would much prefer something neater. |
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 12:55:04 GMT -5
Asynchronous USB isn't necessarily always superior to coaxial (BNC) S/PDIF, but it certainly can be. One important problem with S/PDIF (and AES/EBU) is most DAC units do not come with a separate input connector that can accept an external clock signal. As such, the DAC unit will be limited by the fact the clock signal that feeds the DAC has to be derived from the data signal, which induces jitter that cannot be fully rejected by the jitter cleanup mechanism at the receiving end of the digital cable. Asynchronous USB is bi-directional. It means that the DAC unit is capable to not only receive the audio data flow, but to also transmit control messages in the opposite direction. Thereby, the clock signal that feeds the DAC remains virtually unaffected by this jitter, as the data flow is separated from this clock signal. Granted, there are still other sources of jitter inside the DAC unit. But the combined jitter, when measured at the analog outputs of a well designed asynchronous USB DAC, can be impressively close to zero, even at relatively affordable price points. USB has evolved to become a very practical, fairly reliable connection method for external DAC (and ADC) units. I should add that I find it a real pity the fact so many DAC manufacturers even today are still skimping on the USB input of their new products.
That said, any onboard USB 2.0 port should be fine as long as you can completely avoid hooking up any USB devices to the same USB controller (*controller*, not port) other than the DAC itself. USB 3.0 controllers will typically generate too high amounts of very high frequency noise to be suitable for hooking up high quality DACs, albeit there can be found some (rare) exceptions to this.
However, like I already tried to suggest in my first paragraph, there are still a number of possible caveats. If the DAC is USB powered or if the USB input part of the DAC unit either is USB powered or is not USB powered but still neverhteless connected to the USB power lines, electric noise that is generated by the computer hardware can enter the sensitive parts of the DAC unit via the power lines of the USB connection. There exist various affordable solutions that will effectively disconnect these lines (only recommended for you to consider trying if the DAC unit in question is designed to work properly with these lines having been disconnected, as not all DAC units are...) or, alternatively, that will replace these lines with a clean external power source (linear / voltage regulated power supply unit). So this is one key aspect that *may* interfere with USB DAC performance on some, but not all DACs. (*may*... because it isn't always audible, and it depends on a variety of factors..., and, even if it does happen to be audible, then finding a suitable way to improve it isn't always easy or cheap - or you run the risk that the improvement will not prove to be big enough for you to be able to justify the added expense, etc. etc.).
Furthermore, even if the power signal is as good as perfectly clean, and, even if there are no ground loop hum issues on top of that, etc., the signal in the USB *data* lines can still wreak havoc in a lot of USB DACs. This is why products such as the Uptone Audio USB REGEN, for example, seem fairly popular among audiophiles who have chosen to use USB input on a DAC. I have been reading reports on the internet from people claiming it (the REGEN) is a bigger sonic improvement than for example a SOtM USB controller card (PCI or PCIe type). Another example of a separate USB "cleanup" device is the Audioquest Jitterbug. Some say hooking up two REGENs or one REGEN and a Jitterbug gives the best result. Whereas others have concluded no audible difference to any one of possible combinations to possibly try. My own personal experience has taught me that a lot depends on the design / implementation of the DAC unit. A well designed asynchronous USB input on a DAC should IMO be fully or almost fully audibly immune to these sorts of trending paraphernalia.
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 13:09:49 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake. Until wireless IP audio arrives that is. (Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well) I disagree unless maybe, and that's still only a *maybe*, your DAC is fed by an external clock signal. (And I don't mean external reclocking device, but a real external clock signal that is fed separately into the DAC). |
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 13:35:12 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake. Until wireless IP audio arrives that is. (Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well) Forgot to mention, I have already been enjoying wireless IP audio on my AK240 for well over a year now.  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 15, 2015 14:53:25 GMT -5
What are you trying to achieve that an Ego wouldn't do for you?
Cheers
Gary
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ilok
Minor Hero
Posts: 64
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Post by ilok on Nov 15, 2015 15:21:10 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake. Until wireless IP audio arrives that is. (Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well) You're talking about the break out cable right? That card is too expensive for me. I was hoping for something a bit cheaper and something with a single XLR cable rather than eight. I use this in my living room. And I can't have eight unused cables hanging off by a tiny DAC. I would much prefer something neater. Try this? www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ODL312 |
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ilok
Minor Hero
Posts: 64
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Post by ilok on Nov 15, 2015 15:22:11 GMT -5
AES is the best audio interface ever. Go with the RME or the Lynx card. Super low jitter and you can run 50+ feet cable so you can put your PC in a different room (no more fan noise and the PC can be as powerful as you want). Plus you can upmix your music to multichannel and output via AES 8 channel snake. Until wireless IP audio arrives that is. (Forgot to mention, AES sounds the best by far, plus you can output directly to active monitors with DAC built in as well) Forgot to mention, I have already been enjoying wireless IP audio on my AK240 for well over a year now. I was referring to something more like Dante. If Genelec would build Dante support into their monitors that would be nirvana. |
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ilok
Minor Hero
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Post by ilok on Nov 15, 2015 15:30:16 GMT -5
Asynchronous USB isn't necessarily always superior to coaxial (BNC) S/PDIF, but it certainly can be. One important problem with S/PDIF (and AES/EBU) is most DAC units do not come with a separate input connector that can accept an external clock signal. As such, the DAC unit will be limited by the fact the clock signal that feeds the DAC has to be derived from the data signal, which induces jitter that cannot be fully rejected by the jitter cleanup mechanism at the receiving end of the digital cable. Asynchronous USB is bi-directional. It means that the DAC unit is capable to not only receive the audio data flow, but to also transmit control messages in the opposite direction. Thereby, the clock signal that feeds the DAC remains virtually unaffected by this jitter, as the data flow is separated from this clock signal. Granted, there are still other sources of jitter inside the DAC unit. But the combined jitter, when measured at the analog outputs of a well designed asynchronous USB DAC, can be impressively close to zero, even at relatively affordable price points. USB has evolved to become a very practical, fairly reliable connection method for external DAC (and ADC) units. I should add that I find it a real pity the fact so many DAC manufacturers even today are still skimping on the USB input of their new products. That said, any onboard USB 2.0 port should be fine as long as you can completely avoid hooking up any USB devices to the same USB controller (*controller*, not port) other than the DAC itself. USB 3.0 controllers will typically generate too high amounts of very high frequency noise to be suitable for hooking up high quality DACs, albeit there can be found some (rare) exceptions to this. However, like I already tried to suggest in my first paragraph, there are still a number of possible caveats. If the DAC is USB powered or if the USB input part of the DAC unit either is USB powered or is not USB powered but still neverhteless connected to the USB power lines, electric noise that is generated by the computer hardware can enter the sensitive parts of the DAC unit via the power lines of the USB connection. There exist various affordable solutions that will effectively disconnect these lines (only recommended for you to consider trying if the DAC unit in question is designed to work properly with these lines having been disconnected, as not all DAC units are...) or, alternatively, that will replace these lines with a clean external power source (linear / voltage regulated power supply unit). So this is one key aspect that *may* interfere with USB DAC performance on some, but not all DACs. (*may*... because it isn't always audible, and it depends on a variety of factors..., and, even if it does happen to be audible, then finding a suitable way to improve it isn't always easy or cheap - or you run the risk that the improvement will not prove to be big enough for you to be able to justify the added expense, etc. etc.). Furthermore, even if the power signal is as good as perfectly clean, and, even if there are no ground loop hum issues on top of that, etc., the signal in the USB *data* lines can still wreak havoc in a lot of USB DACs. This is why products such as the Uptone Audio USB REGEN, for example, seem fairly popular among audiophiles who have chosen to use USB input on a DAC. I have been reading reports on the internet from people claiming it (the REGEN) is a bigger sonic improvement than for example a SOtM USB controller card (PCI or PCIe type). Another example of a separate USB "cleanup" device is the Audioquest Jitterbug. Some say hooking up two REGENs or one REGEN and a Jitterbug gives the best result. Whereas others have concluded no audible difference to any one of possible combinations to possibly try. My own personal experience has taught me that a lot depends on the design / implementation of the DAC unit. A well designed asynchronous USB input on a DAC should IMO be fully or almost fully audibly immune to these sorts of trending paraphernalia. You don't have any of these problems with AES! |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 15:33:35 GMT -5
You're talking about the break out cable right? That card is too expensive for me. I was hoping for something a bit cheaper and something with a single XLR cable rather than eight. I use this in my living room. And I can't have eight unused cables hanging off by a tiny DAC. I would much prefer something neater. Try this? www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ODL312Well that's a start. Thank you. However I think it's redundant for my purposes. The problem with that is it requires the PC to ouptut it via TOSLINK. And then the box takes the TOSLINK and it gets converted to AES. If that's the case I would just use the TOSLINK to the DAC and be done with it. I'm looking for something where the source itself is AES. As in something like those LYNX cards you mentioned just a bit cheaper and a single AES output (or a single BNC output). |
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ilok
Minor Hero
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Post by ilok on Nov 15, 2015 15:59:02 GMT -5
Well that's a start. Thank you. However I think it's redundant for my purposes. The problem with that is it requires the PC to ouptut it via TOSLINK. And then the box takes the TOSLINK and it gets converted to AES. If that's the case I would just use the TOSLINK to the DAC and be done with it. I'm looking for something where the source itself is AES. As in something like those LYNX cards you mentioned just a bit cheaper and a single AES output (or a single BNC output). Yeah, your best bet might be to buy them used off Ebay/gearslutz as they come up. I'm not aware of any cheap AES cards. I'm using the RME card myself, I got it around $500. I see some older Lynx card sold for $200 earlier. |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 16:31:34 GMT -5
How do you manage all the cables?
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 17:57:58 GMT -5
I was referring to something more like Dante. If Genelec would build Dante support into their monitors that would be nirvana. Not really. What difference does it make that it's wireless when it still needs power cables anyway, and, between the left and right channels, there will be clock drift unless both of them are wired to either the same DAC or the same clocking device. You don't have any of these problems with AES! In the end it won't actually matter anyway because like I said, without the separate clock feed it is still going to be inferior to a well designed asynchronous USB input mainly as a result from the predominant jitter issue. |
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Post by yves on Nov 15, 2015 18:15:56 GMT -5
Garbulky, what you are looking for simply doesn't exist because either it will be too expensive or else it will perform unsatisfactory. That said, the best sounding AES/EBU output devices typically are ones that need to be hooked up to a computer via asynchronous USB anyway in the first place so you can't gain anything with this stuff soundwise.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2015 18:31:12 GMT -5
I fear that. I'm hoping it's not the case. I don't think I have a very high requirement. A standard PCI card that outputs a single AES or BNC signal. It can output multiple things as long as its not a snake cable. Basically an AES or BNC output for home use.
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Post by vcautokid on Nov 15, 2015 18:46:29 GMT -5
Wow that is allot of work for short yardage there Garbulky. The DC-1 running USB Async doesn't even involve the computer's clock, and reclocks in the DC-1. USB is easy peasy. Also allot of high end computers supply SPDIF support along with 7.1 audio support. I know this also as I am building a new computer. Also why is there fan noise? What are you streaming out that is making your computer work so hard anyway. I run music, never hear fan noise and my computer is right next to me. Hmmm. Interesting.
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