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Post by Axis on Jan 12, 2016 14:04:33 GMT -5
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 12, 2016 14:09:48 GMT -5
geebos and audio bill were it. they QUICKLY "came to the rescue" of bonzo's post...well 2 reviews got it right!!! so S&V must be garbage...that doesnt sound fishy to you? its like going to doctors for second/third opinions...2 say you are healthy...the 3rd says you have some risks....and you just brush it off as he is a "quack" or well I 2 said im fine...so... I guess we have to agree to disagree. In your example with the doctors - it would depend on the reputation of the doctors, wouldn't it? If someone did see these three doctors and then explained their conclusion that their health is fine because in their experience the two positive doctors had more experience/better reputations in their field than the third doctor, would you jump in and say this person is a fanboi of the first two doctors? I understand what you are trying to say in your example but I still do not feel your remark was warranted. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 14:18:03 GMT -5
agreed. again...I wont claim to be an innocent saint...just thought I would poke the bear a little...it was uncalled for..even though it was what I perceived what was going on....I guess my perception was skewed..cause when i read the OP...i was thinking to myself how long it would take for someone to dismiss it as some anomaly and wrong.
i will refrain from doing this in the future
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Post by foggy1956 on Jan 12, 2016 14:23:37 GMT -5
Set loose the hounds?  The poohbois are starting to pounce. You are just way too easy my friend? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jan 12, 2016 14:24:56 GMT -5
agreed. again...I wont claim to be an innocent saint...just thought I would poke the bear a little...it was uncalled for..even though it was what I perceived what was going on....I guess my perception was skewed..cause when i read the OP...i was thinking to myself how long it would take for someone to dismiss it as some anomaly and wrong. i will refrain from doing this in the future That said, you were dead on! |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 12, 2016 14:25:08 GMT -5
Sigh I don't think bmoney is a poohboi or anything. He is obviously an emo fan. Just one that isn't all one way or the other. And even if he wasn't, who the heck cares? There is no fanboy requirement on this forum and the forum has absolutely no problem with criticism. They only have a problem with nastiness and making things personal as per form rules.
We are all on the same we-love-audio-side. Isn't that enough?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2016 14:37:58 GMT -5
Can we all stop talking about be-alls and end-alls and come back down to reality. Soon, DTS-X will be out, so everyone who has to have the latest and greatest will have to have that. And, do you really doubt that, in two or three years, we're going to be seeing Atmos II, and then DTS-XYZ, and then Atmos III, and then maybe DTS-QED, and on, and on, and on? For some of us, we actually just want something that does everything we could possibly want.... and then we'll stop and listen to it. For others, they'll always have to have the absolute latest and greatest - and that train ain't ever gonna stop. And, if that's the way you roll, I can promise you that there will be a new latest and greatest every two or three years to give you something to look forward to. Maybe Atmos IV will have depth speakers (below you and to the sides - below a floor that's an acoustically transparent grating). Or maybe we'll finally have SmellOVision. Or direct neural tie-ins. Whatever it is, I can virtually guarantee that whatever is "normal" in ten years will require 1000x as much processing power as the XMC-1, or any other pre/pro, currently has.... which is OK because, by then, you'll be able to buy a 10,000 core mega-processor for $20 to handle it for you. Personally, I still think 5.1 channels is plenty; I think what I'd like to see is actual holography (instead of stereo-vision 3D) - like the HoloDeck in Star Trek, and it sort of annoys me that development on Cinemascope (and other surround VIDEO formats) seems to have totally stalled. But..... ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE PERSONALITIES STUFF.
PLAY NICE, EVERYBODY IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION, AND EQUALLY ENTITLED TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S.....We all know that the XMC-1 didn't get the top award in Sound and Vision this time around... and I guess it's academically interesting to conjecture about why. But let's avoid getting so wound up about it.... OK? (I'd also like to suggest that we try and keep product comparisons to those involving first-hand experience... and avoid all the assumptions and guesses - at least a little.) I am not a emo hater by any means (possibly a fanboy hater...I cant stand when people are blindly loyal to ANYTHING...i prefer true honesty) nor a denon lover....I love what gets e the results i am looking for...Im happy for all that are happy...if that means they love their XMC so be it...but dont argue its the end al be all just cause you own it...its not The XMC-1 is NOT the end all multi-channel pre/pro and I've had mine since December of 2014. But for me (and only me), it is the end all stereo preamp. It took a while but my system at home sounds as good as those high end shops' expensive rooms and I did it for a fraction of the cost - thanks to Emotiva. So even for me there is a slight bias towards Emotiva since I own them (as expected). And reviews mean nothing to me...especially the ones posted lately that seem more like blogs. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 12, 2016 15:06:23 GMT -5
(I'd also like to suggest that we try and keep product comparisons to those involving first-hand experience... and avoid all the assumptions and guesses - at least a little.) This exactly what I eluded to in the very first post, and it's really part of the problem. It's hard for many people to do. Like you said, Emotiva will do a 30 day thing, but what about Marantz? Hence, why some people, like me, use the professional reviews to help. I don't use them as the gospel (for audio anyway, TV's are a little different), I use them to gather information. I think people who just totally ignore them, dispel them, or find some sort of conspiracy theory to them are not doing themselves any favors. JMO. This entire thread is called "Sound & Vision Forgets The XMC-1." "Forgets" is the key word here. I feel that the Yamaha & Marantz are probably great products. I also feel the XMC-1 probably is too (I do not own one, yet). Hence my using the word "Forgets." Why was the XMC-1 not included? From the words used by S&V when talking about the Marantz, it appears it's their opinion that it beat out the XMC-1 in both multi-channel and 2 channel music listening. At least that's what I'm reading. It's the 2 channel listening and Dirac that Emotiva touts with the XMC-1. If the Marantz equals or betters the XMC-1 in those categories, then the extra money spent on the Marantz could actually be worth the price of early adopter admission. I think where I might see some Emotiva Fanboyism is that some here will just toss out the Marantz saying no D&M produced product could actually sound great, and certainly not as good as the XMC-1. It's kind of like reverse racism. But I understand this is an Emotiva forum so that's to be expected some I think. What I want to point out is that S&V basically admitted that the older Marantz did not sound totally magnificent, because they make it very clear that internal parts have been upgraded to put this new one on an entirely new plateau of sound performance. Perhaps it was even Emotiva's fault for this? Perhaps the guys @ D&M saw the XMC-1 as a threat, so to combat it they upped their game? Does anyone really think this isn't possible? I think it's very possible. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 12, 2016 15:16:44 GMT -5
agreed. again...I wont claim to be an innocent saint...just thought I would poke the bear a little...it was uncalled for..even though it was what I perceived what was going on....I guess my perception was skewed..cause when i read the OP...i was thinking to myself how long it would take for someone to dismiss it as some anomaly and wrong. i will refrain from doing this in the future Well you figure there are plenty of good products out there with good arguments for an award. I imagine the biggest benefit of such an award is because it helps generate sales for the manufacturer. But otherwise, besides being a point of pride to say you own something designated as a "product of the year" who cares? I don't put any credence in those awards anyway. It is nice that Emotiva received them since I do consider myself a fan of the company/products but that sure wouldn't influence me one way or the other in a purchase decision because that stuff is all subjective and in some cases political as well. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jan 12, 2016 15:22:41 GMT -5
Awards are payola anyway!
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 12, 2016 15:32:32 GMT -5
Another S&V quote under the Top Pick Of The Year section.
"Throw in some circuit updates from it's predecessor model that noticeably improved sound quality for both movies and music, and the usual kitchen-sink features complement, and you end up with the one item we tested last year that was universally lusted for by everyone on our staff and the one we'd all welcome into our home. That's about as strong a recommendation as we can make."
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 12, 2016 16:37:53 GMT -5
The review had the xmc-1 at $2500. Now that the sale is over the xmc-1 stayed at $1999 . I wonder if sound and vision will update the information in the review.
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Post by copperpipe on Jan 12, 2016 17:19:13 GMT -5
Come to think of it, not ONE product I purchased in my lifetime has ever won "best in class" award or something similar. All my Emotiva products, I bought them because they work for me, not because some dude scribbling up a review thought it worthy. In fact, none of the Emotiva products I purchased were even on a list of possible award recipients; I feel so ... out of balance ...
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 12, 2016 17:43:46 GMT -5
TO be honest with you I only read the title and I knew this thread was going to go to the moonies very very quickly. I stop reading threads about the XMC-1 FIVE YEARS AGO! I would strongly suggest you all do the same and move on.....old news eventually become history....
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
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Post by Lsc on Jan 12, 2016 18:30:14 GMT -5
Can we all stop talking about be-alls and end-alls and come back down to reality. PLAY NICE, EVERYBODY IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION, AND EQUALLY ENTITLED TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S..... [/i][/b] [/quote] Agree, everyone is entitled to their opinion and for me, the XMC-1 is the end all for 2 channel sound. The reality of it is that due to the law of diminishing returns, I can't afford to replace the XMC-1 with something that would be considered "substantially" better. Substantially to mean, worth upgrading to based on performance. Also, the reality is that listening to the McIntosh preamp (forget the model), the 4502 stereo power amp and Revel Ultima2 Studio at the dealer didn't make me say oh man my XMC-1, XPR-2, F208 sounds like crap..in fact it was hard to remember one being better than the other. That's a good enough of an end game for me. Now, if I win the 1.4 billion powerball, my end game will obviously reset to whatever the hell I want. Also, without ever listening to the Marantz 8802, how can one conclude that the 8802 = more features and the XMC-1 = better sound? Perhaps the 8802 = more features and better sound. We need folks who are better researched around here...where is Andrew Robinson?  |
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Post by sycraft on Jan 13, 2016 13:16:40 GMT -5
Can we all stop talking about be-alls and end-alls and come back down to reality. Soon, DTS-X will be out, so everyone who has to have the latest and greatest will have to have that. And, do you really doubt that, in two or three years, we're going to be seeing Atmos II, and then DTS-XYZ, and then Atmos III, and then maybe DTS-QED, and on, and on, and on? For some of us, we actually just want something that does everything we could possibly want.... and then we'll stop and listen to it. For others, they'll always have to have the absolute latest and greatest - and that train ain't ever gonna stop. And, if that's the way you roll, I can promise you that there will be a new latest and greatest every two or three years to give you something to look forward to This. Not only will there always be new formats, but a lot of the latest stuff has been more the electronic industry trying to find ways to convince people they need new toys, rather than any actual legit market. Atmos is a neat concept and all, though a rather old one (computers have done multiple positional audio streams forever for games) but the idea that you'll see many houses with height speakers is just not realistic. It is hard enough to convince most people just to get a surround system rather than a sound bar. It is a niche product. Now no problem with niche products, I own many things that are niche and that appeal to me and few others. However making something like that a be-all, end-all is a little silly. I doubt many people really care about Atmos except to the extent of "I want to have the latest, greatest." They've no intent of actually implementing a system using it. Same deal with 3D TV. I know a lot of people who own TVs that are technically 3D capable. Only one of them actually has a source that can provide 3D, the rest just don't care. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 13, 2016 13:49:05 GMT -5
Not only will there always be new formats, but a lot of the latest stuff has been more the electronic industry trying to find ways to convince people they need new toys, rather than any actual legit market. 4K TV's are the same thing. For the vast majority of folks (people who have a 65" TV or less) 4K means nothing. It's mostly a catchy new phrase used to sell TV's. Like it or not, but 4K, Atmos and DTS:X (and possibly Auro) will be standard fair by next Christmas. You won't be able to choose, it will just be in every TV, new receiver, and mainstream processor out there. I dare say that the XMC-1 will meet it's maker because of not having Atmos and DTS:X. It won't be for sound quality or video pass through, or even the number of channels. Who would buy a 7.1 receiver for your main system today that doesn't do Dolby True or DTS Master? How long it takes to happen is anybody's guess, but I predict this issue, at some point, will be end of the XMC-1 (but could be resolved in the future with an XMC-1 Gen 3). |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 13, 2016 13:51:04 GMT -5
Also, without ever listening to the Marantz 8802, how can one conclude that the 8802 = more features and the XMC-1 = better sound? Perhaps the 8802 = more features and better sound. +1. Exactly. But I don't see anyone here even giving that a chance. |
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Post by sycraft on Jan 13, 2016 15:59:34 GMT -5
Not only will there always be new formats, but a lot of the latest stuff has been more the electronic industry trying to find ways to convince people they need new toys, rather than any actual legit market. 4K TV's are the same thing. For the vast majority of folks (people who have a 65" TV or less) 4K means nothing. It's mostly a catchy new phrase used to sell TV's. Like it or not, but 4K, Atmos and DTS:X (and possibly Auro) will be standard fair by next Christmas. You won't be able to choose, it will just be in every TV, new receiver, and mainstream processor out there. I dare say that the XMC-1 will meet it's maker because of not having Atmos and DTS:X. It won't be for sound quality or video pass through, or even the number of channels. Who would buy a 7.1 receiver for your main system today that doesn't do Dolby True or DTS Master? How long it takes to happen is anybody's guess, but I predict this issue, at some point, will be end of the XMC-1 (but could be resolved in the future with an XMC-1 Gen 3). Yes I'm sure it'll eventually need to get newer technologies, but I think the urgency is a little false. People are not running out en masse to dump their current receivers and buy new toys just to get the new specs. You are an example of that, running a 3805 which is going on 10 years old now, yet clearly the new tech that's come out in that time has not yet been enough for you to feel the need for a new one. It is not a "must have" feature by any stretch of the imagination. Likewise just because a new tech comes out doesn't mean everything has to get on board to sell. 4k is a great example. You can still find tons of 1080 TVs out there, current generation models, on sale in major retailers. If the price, or other aspects, are what people want and they don't care about the latest toys, things still sell. That is even more true with niche products, which the XMC-1 surely is. Niche audio stuff is quite often not updated to the newest fads as it gets replaced slower, and has other things it focuses on. The sort of people who buy it are ok with that (or they wouldn't buy it). Simple fact of the matter is that Emotiva can't have everything and hit the price point they want. If they added Atoms and Auro they'd either have to get rid of room correction and give a DSP over to the new formats, or add a DSP and remove other components to make up the cost difference. Either way they'd have to lower the quality of the components on the output stages because more of them would be needed. They don't want to do that, so the XMC-1 is as it stands. I just think it is much ado about nothing because at this point, Atmos is present in almost no source material, and few people are willing to build a system to support it. Will that change in 10 years? Perhaps, but I'd worry about that then, not now. Trying to buy to "future proof" is never a good idea in technology, because it changes all the time. So if you need Atmos NOW (or in the next year or two) then ok, makes sense to consider. If you are saying "Well maybe it'll matter in 5 or 10 years," then don't worry about it, because in that time a lot will change and you can and should buy hardware then to support it, not now. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 13, 2016 16:45:49 GMT -5
but I think the urgency is a little false. I think the urgency of people here is incredibly false. No one needs to have Atmos now because the world will end without it. That's certainly how many here come across. They may want it, but need it, uh, no. Not true with 4K. Even a bunch of non-tech people I know are drooling to buy a 4K TV because they don't have a clue. They just hear the words "more resolution" and it's like Pavlov's dog. When I tell them I bought the best 65" TV money can buy 2 years ago, and I say it's still probably the best TV out there, they say "oh, 4K eh?" I say no, its not. And they basically shrug and act like I don't know what I'm talking about because they think 4K is the best TV money can buy. Getting those same people to get excited about audio is an entirely different story. Regular average Joe people are NOT willing to pay for that just to upgrade. Yes and no. I have not moved up the line because there really has been no need. I have all the quality (sans room correction processing which I'm not sold on anyway), I just go about it a little differently. I run my video to my TV directly via HDMI. It's better that way anyway, because then any slight picture adjustment differences I have between inputs (slightly brighter with DirecTV and properly adjusted for Blu-ray with the lights turned down) switch automatically when I change the inputs. Only cost me one extra HDMI cable; no sweat. I get the full Dolby True and DTS Master sound quality, just the processing for it is done in my Blu-ray player. Perhaps it may be better done in a newer processor, but perhaps not. The only real obvious downside I have is that since my receiver only passes the 7.1 inputs through, I only get true 5.1 sound on 5.1 discs (the Dolby IIx does not kick in and derive 7.1 from 5.1). I get true 7.1 sound from 7.1 discs though. Now and only now, with Atmos and DTS:X, am I starting to feel the pinch of upgrading. I know the first thing people always jump on is how you will NEED more speakers etc. While that is certainly true to get the real potential out of it, I think there will still be benefits using plain old 7.1. Supposedly DTS:X will "make itself work" for what ever speaker arrangement you have. So I see potential that DTS:X will sound more lifelike as a surround format than DTS Master simply because it will place objects better than before. They may be current but they are 2015 current. This year the majority of models will switch. For example, yes, you can still probably find a 720 set if you look around, but it's far from readily available. 4K will be everywhere by Christmas, needed or not. Same thing happened when 1080i switched to 1080p and when 3D came out. Actually you and I both stand corrected. I just read today in the other huge thread that Big Dan is softening his position on this. Whether it makes it into this generation XMC-1 is a big question mark. But Emotiva is thinking about it. As I said above, I think even 7.1 Atmos and DTS:X will make some difference, and as I said in another post, I think it will be necessary to keep the XMC-1 alive. As you pointed out, my receiver is already 10 years old. The time to upgrade is coming soon. Maybe not "now" now, but surely not 5-10 years from now as you propose. I'm hoping that someone will make a great sounding unit with at least 11.1 that I can afford, because I will make that work another 10 years just like I did the receiver I have. Right now that piece of equipment is this new Marantz, but it could also be the XMR-1. I'm thinking maybe in 2017 (or 2018 at the latest) will be when I upgrade. |
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