RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59 
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 8, 2016 7:49:19 GMT -5
audiobillI have considered Butler Audio and his tube amp. It is well within my budget and seems to have tube life of a few years as the tubes are driven at 5% capacity. But, research shows that tube pre or a DAC with tube buffer stage does the trick well. Am I totally lost here?  ??
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Post by garbulky on Mar 8, 2016 8:18:25 GMT -5
Thank you all for the suggestions. How will dual Subs help if the problem is as below?? - the sound is lacking weight (what **I mean here is it is not full bodied) - the soundstage is weird at times. The drums sometimes roll all across 10 feel (distance between speakers) - the unexplainable tube sound is missing (I had a tube radio cum amp I inherited from my dad so I know what that sounds like) The mc intosh referred by Boomzilla is 10k+ and that's more than what I was looking for (hence looking at the c220) Cheers Cube Ok the sound is lacking weight/not full bodied. THe sub will help. It will anchor the sound. The soundstage being weirdm drums rolling across 10 feet. That may be the recording. But whatever that is that doesn't sound like it has anything to do with electronics or subs. It has to do with speaker positining. If you haven't already you need to take insane amounts of time with speaker positinng. Adjust it and your listening room till it sounds right.If you are near a corner wall the sound may feel unbalanced. Adjusting the toe in helps a whole lot. Even tiny amounts like a five degrees. You got to make sure you lock in that image. Yoiu'll know when it happens because the sound "picture" goes from good to snapping in to focus like a camera. If it sounds way too strong in the center with little left and right then you toed in too much. If it sounds very vague and thin you may have toed out too much. Moving the speakers forward and backward can help find a better sweet spot. Etc. A lot of things can be fixed with speaker (and listening positioning). Just play around with it and experiemnt a lot. As for the Mcintosh, well I wouldn't go around spending 10k on a preamp. The Mcintosh was good. But I wouldn't spend the money needed to buy it due to its cost. I felt the upgrade was incremental over the XSP-1. I think your problems lie else where.....and it's not tube sound. Likely room acoustics and speaker positioning. Drums rolling ten feet is well dependent on the recording. Maybe you have your speakers placed wider apart than you are comfortable with. Post a picture of your room setup from your couch. We could give you some easy advice that is free to implement that may help a lot. But dual subwoofers can help your sound though. Especially from that link that was posted. Tubes can rpesent a dimensionality to the sound. Dual subs can have the potential to do that too. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Mar 8, 2016 10:09:16 GMT -5
The thing to recognize up front is that, from what you describe in this post and several others, what you're looking for is to alter the sound in the way you're used to hearing tube amplifiers do it. (The solid state components you have should be quite accurate.) The answer is a tiny bit complicated, mostly because the differences you're hearing are due to several different causes - all of which constitute various colorations common in tube equipment. However, you need to understand what's going on to understand which parts of the sound are coming from which component. First, tube power amplifiers have a very low damping factor compared to solid state amplifiers (solid state amps typically have a damping factor of 100 or higher; tube amps range from about 5 to about ten). Damping factor, among other things, determines how tightly the amplifier controls the woofer cone, and so how "tight" or "concise" the bass is. Tube amplifiers, because of their very low damping, tend to produce bass that is less well defined, and may be downright tubby, but sounds "softer" and "smoother" - and, because the bass is sort of softened, even though it technically doesn't extend as low, they may also produce what sounds like more bass. Speakers designed back in the days of tube amps, and modern speakers designed to work well with tube amps, are designed so that the speaker itself is mechanically damped (since they don't expect the amplifier to do it). This puts the speaker more in control of how its bass will sound than the amplifier. (And, if you put a modern amplifier on one of those vintage speakers, there may be too little bass - because both the speaker AND the amplifier are controlling the bass - so it's a little too controlled.) In contrast, most modern speakers EXPECT the amplifier to control them quite strongly, and so many of them sound VERY tubby if you connect them to a tube amp.) You can duplicate that aspect of the sound by putting a large power resistor in series with the speaker to lower the damping factor. (If your amplifier has a damping factor of 500, and you have an 8 ohm speaker, putting a 20 watt 1 ohm resistor in series with each speaker will reduce the damping factor to about 8. Since this part of the sound is determined by how the amplifier controls the speaker, and by the speaker itself, you won't get it by adding a tube preamp. (The output transformers on tube power amps also introduce other distortions and colorations, but this is the main one.) Most of the other parts of what most people characterize as "tube sound" ("warmth", "sparkle", and such) are caused by the differences between how tube preamps and amplifiers distort as compared to solid state equipment. In general, tube equipment produces significantly more distortion than solid state equipment, but more importantly (in the context of this discussion), tube equipment produces different types of distortion that sound different than those created by solid state equipment. In general, a solid state amplifier will produce very low distortion at low power levels; and the distortion will remain very low until, at some high level, the amp starts to clip - at which point the distortion rises very suddenly; and the distortion that occurs will contain lots of higher order harmonics (third harmonic and higher). Therefore, the solid state amplifier will sound very clean until it hits a certain point, then it will sound very nasty, very suddenly, once you exceed its capabilities. In contrast, most tube amplifiers will produce more distortion, and start distorting at a much lower power setting, and the distortion they produce will then rise gradually as you increase the power. However, the distortion produced by tube amplifiers tends to contain mostly lower harmonics, especially the second harmonic - which can actually add a bit of "sparkle" to the sound, and have even been shown to sometimes improve intelligibility. This part of the sound is a characteristic of both tube preamps and power amps, and adding a tube preamp to your equipment should enable you to get more of this sound. (But, other than sometimes having slightly rolled-off bass, a tube preamp isn't likely to make the bass itself sound much different.) The short answer is that, if you want to add some "tube warmth" to the sound, you might want to try adding a lower-cost tube preamp - like the Schiit Audio Lyr II (it's a headphone amp, but can be used as a preamp). Since what you're talking about is a basic characteristic of tube equipment in general, you DON'T have to buy an expensive tube preamp to get it. In fact, you will find that the amount of coloration that gets added simply varies between different equipment, and in fact very expensive tube equipment tends to add LESS rather than more of it. (Note that, since the XPA-1L is basically neutral, it will faithfully reproduce whatever colorations the preamp you choose produces. So, if you choose a preamp that ADDS the "warmth" that you want, the XPA-1L won't remove it.) Hi, I could not find details of similar threads on the forum similar to what i am looking for. Do feel free to point me in the direction if i missed any old threads that are relevant. I currently use the XSP-1 and XPA-1L combo with Axiom M100 combo and am quiet happy. Over the last few months i have been bitten by the Tube bug and wondering if a Tube Pre will make a significant improvement. I would like to know if I will be wasting money or will there be a substantial smoothness and warmth by a Tube Pre compared to the XSP-1. I do not want to or plan to remove the XSP-1 from my system. Just another Pre-amp that i can use on occasion that will bring that 60s sound back  This is what i have right now. So let me know if something is mismatched. Source - digital wav/dsd Dac - Teac ud501 Teac udh01
Pre- XSP-1
Amp- XLA-1L
Speakers - Axiom M100v4
Gear i was looking at / reading about [but not the only gear i am ready to consider]
-Mc Intosh C220
-Luxman CL38
Please can you share your thoughts.
Cheers
Cube |
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Post by rtg97229 on Mar 8, 2016 10:16:02 GMT -5
audiobillI have considered Butler Audio and his tube amp. It is well within my budget and seems to have tube life of a few years as the tubes are driven at 5% capacity. But, research shows that tube pre or a DAC with tube buffer stage does the trick well. Am I totally lost here? ?? For what you seem to be looking for I think you are right to look for a pre or buffer. Something like the MJOLNIR 2 or LYR 2 from Schiit Audio may be what you are looking for. The 2 subs idea might really surprise you for filling out the bottom end sound also if you choose to go that way. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 8, 2016 10:43:15 GMT -5
Or just buy a tube amp, and skip all this pseudo stuff. With all due respect Bill, there is nothing "pseudo" at all about this. John Broskie who runs the Tube CAD Journal is an expert on tube circuit design and for the DIYer has a full line of PCBs to build buffers and amplifiers. If you want to learn about tube circuits, this is the place. I posted about the Harmonic Restorer as a concept and not an urging to run out and build one real quick. I have heard the benefit of having a tube amp on my own equipment. But, I have always been left with the nagging question as to why it sounds better on some things. I am becoming a believer that added coloration caused by tube 2nd order harmonic generation can make some things sound better. This is analogous to using a filter on a camera. |
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Post by yves on Mar 8, 2016 10:59:21 GMT -5
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 8, 2016 13:01:24 GMT -5
Hey Keith. You struck a cord with me. So I looked up the Lyr2. It has a in and out. Do you or can you hook this between your pre amp and amp? How do you hook it up for headphones if you want to incorporate it in a system ? If you hook it up between the pre and amp would that give the tube sound you are speaking of ?
Thanks for the advice. Tony
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 8, 2016 13:05:32 GMT -5
Hey Keith. You struck a cord with me. So I looked up the Lyr2. It has a in and out. Do you or can you hook this between your pre amp and amp? How do you hook it up for headphones if you want to incorporate it in a system ? If you hook it up between the pre and amp would that give the tube sound you are speaking of ? Thanks for the advice. Tony I'm not Keith, but the Lyr2 is itself a two-channel preamp so it would require an analog line-in feed; the volume control regulates the headphone and the analog line out signal. |
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Post by hitmanray on Mar 8, 2016 13:53:40 GMT -5
Wanted to add my 2 cents here.
Recently went through the same thought process of wanting to experiment with tube sound without having to invest too much or start the component merry-go-round (one upgrade leads to another). I picked up the Yaqin CD3 tube buffer from Amazon. Would best sit between your DAC and Pre-amp (that was the way I had it set up). It has no volume control, but that's not needed as you have the XPS-1. I also switched out the stock Chinese tubes for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6SN7. I also tried some NOS RCA 6SN7GTBs but preferred the EH tubes sound.
In short, for less than $250 (including new tubes) it was a really good value that I felt really enhanced my system.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 8, 2016 14:08:07 GMT -5
Wanted to add my 2 cents here. Recently went through the same thought process of wanting to experiment with tube sound without having to invest too much or start the component merry-go-round (one upgrade leads to another). I picked up the Yaqin CD3 tube buffer from Amazon. Would best sit between your DAC and Pre-amp (that was the way I had it set up). It has no volume control, but that's not needed as you have the XPS-1. I also switched out the stock Chinese tubes for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6SN7. I also tried some NOS RCA 6SN7GTBs but preferred the EH tubes sound. In short, for less than $250 (including new tubes) it was a really good value that I felt really enhanced my system. I do the same thing with a Grant Fidelity buffer in the processor loop of the XSP-1. It too uses 6SN7 Octal tubes! |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 8, 2016 17:40:17 GMT -5
Hey Keith. You struck a cord with me. So I looked up the Lyr2. It has a in and out. Do you or can you hook this between your pre amp and amp? How do you hook it up for headphones if you want to incorporate it in a system ? If you hook it up between the pre and amp would that give the tube sound you are speaking of ? Thanks for the advice. Tony I'm not Keith, but the Lyr2 is itself a two-channel preamp so it would require an analog line-in feed; the volume control regulates the headphone and the analog line out signal. So you can not put it between the pre amp and amp?. Then say, you put it between a CD player then to the CD input on your pre amp and it should change the sound of your CD player? Does that make sense? |
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 8, 2016 18:24:22 GMT -5
I'm not Keith, but the Lyr2 is itself a two-channel preamp so it would require an analog line-in feed; the volume control regulates the headphone and the analog line out signal. So you can not put it between the pre amp and amp?. Then say, you put it between a CD player then to the CD input on your pre amp and it should change the sound of your CD player? Does that make sense? I don't think you can use the Lyr2 as a tube buffer since it has a volume control. If you put it between a CD player and a preamp then you're going to be doubling up on the volume controls, one on the Lyr2 and then one on your preamp. Maybe you can turn up the Lyr2 volume all the way and then use the preamp control as an attenuator? Someone else in the Lounge who knows more about that stuff can chime in, but normally you would just use the Lyr2 itself as the preamp and connect the outputs to an amp. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 8, 2016 18:32:22 GMT -5
Thank you all for the suggestions. How will dual Subs help if the problem is as below?? - the sound is lacking weight (what **I mean here is it is not full bodied) - the soundstage is weird at times. The drums sometimes roll all across 10 feel (distance between speakers) - the unexplainable tube sound is missing (I had a tube radio cum amp I inherited from my dad so I know what that sounds like) The mc intosh referred by Boomzilla is 10k+ and that's more than what I was looking for (hence looking at the c220) Cheers Cube PLEASE, Don't take this the wrong way. Realizing you have as well as other people financial limitations did you check out "tubes4hifi"? Tube amplifiers might be the way to go to get to the heart of what you want to accomplish. Great build, heavy duty, will add warmth and is made 100% in the USA. Did I mention affordable? Personally I think tubes and solid state work well togather...my m125 tubes and solid state m920 pre/dac/headphone amp compliment one another. BTW part of attaining good soundstage is the postioning of your speakers. Food for thought. |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 8, 2016 18:37:20 GMT -5
So you can not put it between the pre amp and amp?. Then say, you put it between a CD player then to the CD input on your pre amp and it should change the sound of your CD player? Does that make sense? I don't think you can use the Lyr2 as a tube buffer since it has a volume control. If you put it between a CD player and a preamp then you're going to be doubling up on the volume controls, one on the Lyr2 and then one on your preamp. Maybe you can turn up the Lyr2 volume all the way and then use the preamp control as an attenuator? Someone else in the Lounge who knows more about that stuff can chime in, but normally you would just use the Lyr2 itself as the preamp and connect the outputs to an amp. Oh, Ok Now I got it. Thanks for your reply. |
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Post by sonicseeker on Mar 8, 2016 18:48:28 GMT -5
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Post by lynxo on Mar 9, 2016 0:37:28 GMT -5
I had the rogue tube pre before with the 6sn7 tubes. I like the 6sn7, imho they do provide that lush smooth midrange and the rogue provided a wide sound stage.
problem with 6sn7 is high gain so you get more noise and microphonics if there is vibration nearby from speakers,etc...
I used the rogue pre with the XPA-1's. I like the tube pre solid state amp combo. You could also try the Oddblock Forewatt, very great specs and all
high reviews. Simple kit you can build yourself and not pricey compared to others.
I also had the primaluna prologue 3 and dialogue 3 pre's. They sound more solid state with some warmth is best I can describe.
Just got to try and see what works for you, gets costly though, buy and sell.
my current setup is the elekit tu-8200 and Aon 3's. Very nice natural sound but requires high sens. speakers since output is low, for small room its plenty loud.
Just 4 tubes and cannot be happier with the sound it puts out.
hope that helps a bit.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Mar 9, 2016 11:02:58 GMT -5
A "buffer" is simply a "preamp" with a fixed gain (usually x1) - and, since you don't ever need to adjust the gain on a buffer, it doesn't need to have a volume control. (Because a buffer usually doesn't need to have voltage gain, this sometimes allows you to optimize the design a tiny bit for lower noise or distortion (but only a tiny bit)). The reason one normally wants to avoid doubling up on preamps, or volume controls, or anything else, is that ALL electronics add some noise and distortion to the signal (yes ALL). Therefore, since a preamp is normally supposed to alter the sound as little as possible, cutting the signal with one volume control, adding gain, then cutting it with another volume control, and then adding gain again, is counter to this goal. However, when the reason you're adding a given device IS specifically to alter the sound, then this is no longer specifically true. The Lyr has one analog input, a volume control, and one line level output (in addition to its headphone output). Therefore, since it has a volume control, you can use it as a preamp; and, if you just set the volume control at some convenient point, and then don't change it, you can use the Lyr as a "buffer" (and, since the goal is to change the sound, the fact that the extra circuitry of the volume control may change it a tiny bit more really doesn't matter). Therefore, you could put the Lyr between the CD player and the preamp (in which case it would only affect the way the CD player sounds), or between the preamp and the power amp (in which case it would affect the way everything going through the preamp sounds). (In general, if you're using it as a buffer, you probably want to set the gain on the Lyr somewhere around 1. Odds are that setting the gain all the way up, then cutting it in another component, will add a bit of noise... but that will depend on all the components involved, and on the gain setting on the Lyr itself, and it might sound slightly different at different gain settings, so simply experiment until you find a sound you like.) So you can not put it between the pre amp and amp?. Then say, you put it between a CD player then to the CD input on your pre amp and it should change the sound of your CD player? Does that make sense? I don't think you can use the Lyr2 as a tube buffer since it has a volume control. If you put it between a CD player and a preamp then you're going to be doubling up on the volume controls, one on the Lyr2 and then one on your preamp. Maybe you can turn up the Lyr2 volume all the way and then use the preamp control as an attenuator? Someone else in the Lounge who knows more about that stuff can chime in, but normally you would just use the Lyr2 itself as the preamp and connect the outputs to an amp. |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 9, 2016 11:20:16 GMT -5
A "buffer" is simply a "preamp" with a fixed gain (usually x1) - and, since you don't ever need to adjust the gain on a buffer, it doesn't need to have a volume control. (Because a buffer usually doesn't need to have voltage gain, this sometimes allows you to optimize the design a tiny bit for lower noise or distortion (but only a tiny bit)). The reason one normally wants to avoid doubling up on preamps, or volume controls, or anything else, is that ALL electronics add some noise and distortion to the signal (yes ALL). Therefore, since a preamp is normally supposed to alter the sound as little as possible, cutting the signal with one volume control, adding gain, then cutting it with another volume control, and then adding gain again, is counter to this goal. However, when the reason you're adding a given device IS specifically to alter the sound, then this is no longer specifically true. The Lyr has one analog input, a volume control, and one line level output (in addition to its headphone output). Therefore, since it has a volume control, you can use it as a preamp; and, if you just set the volume control at some convenient point, and then don't change it, you can use the Lyr as a "buffer" (and, since the goal is to change the sound, the fact that the extra circuitry of the volume control may change it a tiny bit more really doesn't matter). Therefore, you could put the Lyr between the CD player and the preamp (in which case it would only affect the way the CD player sounds), or between the preamp and the power amp (in which case it would affect the way everything going through the preamp sounds). (In general, if you're using it as a buffer, you probably want to set the gain on the Lyr somewhere around 1. Odds are that setting the gain all the way up, then cutting it in another component, will add a bit of noise... but that will depend on all the components involved, and on the gain setting on the Lyr itself, and it might sound slightly different at different gain settings, so simply experiment until you find a sound you like.) I don't think you can use the Lyr2 as a tube buffer since it has a volume control. If you put it between a CD player and a preamp then you're going to be doubling up on the volume controls, one on the Lyr2 and then one on your preamp. Maybe you can turn up the Lyr2 volume all the way and then use the preamp control as an attenuator? Someone else in the Lounge who knows more about that stuff can chime in, but normally you would just use the Lyr2 itself as the preamp and connect the outputs to an amp. Thank you, Keith. From looking at the back of the Lyr2 that is what I thought but was not sure. Thank you, Tony |
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Post by cheapthryl on Mar 9, 2016 11:26:25 GMT -5
Gary Dodd used to have a Batt. operated tube buffer with volume attenuation in a kit. You could tube roll with 12v or 6v tubes also.
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 9, 2016 11:43:47 GMT -5
Nice and made in the USA! A bit more costly than tubes4hifi but a quality amplifier! |
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