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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 9, 2016 15:01:11 GMT -5
...Since what you're talking about is a basic characteristic of tube equipment in general, you DON'T have to buy an expensive tube preamp to get it. In fact, you will find that the amount of coloration that gets added simply varies between different equipment, and in fact very expensive tube equipment tends to add LESS rather than more of it... Mr. Levkov is, again, right. The "more expensive" tube amps sound more neutral than the cheap ones. An Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, Rogue Audio, McIntosh, or Balanced Audio Technology tube preamp will have significantly less second harmonic distortion than the typical Yaqin, or other Chinese tube preamp. So, one would think, why spend MORE on a tube preamp that gives you LESS of what tubes are about? Ah, but it isn't that simple. As the second harmonic distortion drops, the "exaggerated soundstage" that tube products are known for still remains. Is it an exaggeration not on the original recording? Or is it actually there on the recording, but typical solid-state products fail to reproduce it? I would suspect the former rather than the latter because were it recording dependent, some music would totally lack soundstage despite being played on a tube preamp. Now that said, the tube gear must distort the original recording in a way that enhances its spatial presentation on playback. If you're one for whom ultimate accuracy to the original recording is paramount, then you'll likely be happiest with solid-state gear. However, if your goal is the ultimate connection to and enjoyment of the music, then tube gear may have something to offer. The only way to know if you're a "tube-head" or not is to actually listen to some tube gear. Like what you hear? Smile & enjoy. Think it sounded better without that "tube bloom?" Transistors are probably your (far less expensive) choice. But as much as I enjoy tube sound, the exaggerated tube sound of the Chinese products is, ultimately, not my cup of tea. However, with my current gear, I get sufficiently close to solid state accuracy but still with a bit of soundstage enhancement. It wasn't cheap - but I like the compromise. Now for those who say that I've chosen euphonics over accuracy, I agree. My rig DOES sound a very slight bit on the euphonic side of totally accurate. But I find that I listen to it more and enjoy it more this way. Plus, my better half has found that she enjoys listening with me now (not so much when the system was totally solid-state). So I'll be keeping my expensive, slightly-euphonic preamp. It does what I want it to do and I'm enjoying things more and more. Money well spent! YMMV... Boomzilla |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 9, 2016 17:12:46 GMT -5
Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound.
No free lunch.
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Post by yves on Mar 9, 2016 22:14:35 GMT -5
Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound. No free lunch. No free lunch, but yes "Goliath slayer".  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 10, 2016 1:38:18 GMT -5
Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound. No free lunch. I might disagree on both counts. But, of course, it depends on one's definition of "great tube sound." For someone unfamiliar with tubes, a Dynaco PAS preamp with a Stereo 70 power amp may just what they want. It is distinctively and totally "tube sound," and for some it may also be great. For some who want less second-harmonic distortion, more extended treble, and tighter bass, the Yaqin VK-2100 may fill the bill and still for not much money. I've also heard Jolida and Qinpu products that were both cheap and arguably "great." And although I like my McIntosh tube preamp, there are many who wouldn't because it would be "too neutral" or "not enough tube sound." So depending on what KIND of "great tube sound" one prefers, it may NOT be necessary to spend much money. Yes, durability, parts quality, and cosmetics all improve at higher price points, but not (necessarily) sound quality. I know we (strongly) disagree on these points audiobill, so I'll shut up now. And although we disagree, I definitely understand your point of view. Boomzilla |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 10, 2016 2:00:49 GMT -5
Tube buffers are generally some form of what is called a cathode follower.
In a cathode follower 100% of the tube's output is returned to the input via the common cathode resistor, thus the gain is fixed at 1.
This feedback also serves to negate any distortion, desired or not, generated by the tube.
Even inexpensive tube buffers will sound good.
Where the buffer excels is as an impedance bridge - high in low out.
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Post by rtg97229 on Mar 10, 2016 2:28:25 GMT -5
Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound. No free lunch. I might disagree on both counts. But, of course, it depends on one's definition of "great tube sound." For someone unfamiliar with tubes, a Dynaco PAS preamp with a Stereo 70 power amp may just what they want. It is distinctively and totally "tube sound," and for some it may also be great. For some who want less second-harmonic distortion, more extended treble, and tighter bass, the Yaqin VK-2100 may fill the bill and still for not much money. I've also heard Jolida and Qinpu products that were both cheap and arguably "great." And although I like my McIntosh tube preamp, there are many who wouldn't because it would be "too neutral" or "not enough tube sound." So depending on what KIND of "great tube sound" one prefers, it may NOT be necessary to spend much money. Yes, durability, parts quality, and cosmetics all improve at higher price points, but not (necessarily) sound quality. I know we (strongly) disagree on these points audiobill , so I'll shut up now. And although we disagree, I definitely understand your point of view. Boomzilla To some people explaining that harmonic distortion can sound pleasant and is not a bad thing is not enough. They actually believe that tubes preserve something in the original recording that FETs or opamps can not. Their understanding is flawed but as long as they enjoy their music all is good. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 10, 2016 10:02:58 GMT -5
I've had a chance to listen to several Yaqin products (and owned one at one point). The one important piece of advice I would give about them is that their sound is "all over the map". Some of Yaqin's products sound VERY tubey, while others sound quite neutral. Therefore, if you're considering a Yaqin product, and especially a power amp, audition, read reviews, and talk to people who have THE SAME MODEL AS THE ONE YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT BUYING; don't assume that all their products sound the same, or even similar to each other, or that they have a single "house sound" - they vary quite widely. (Incidentally, for the price, I would say that their build quality is quite good - and most of their stuff that looks like big slabs of metal really does feel as solid as it looks. However, sometimes they're a little off on small details, like giving you enough clearance to turn the knobs  ) Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound. No free lunch. I might disagree on both counts. But, of course, it depends on one's definition of "great tube sound." For someone unfamiliar with tubes, a Dynaco PAS preamp with a Stereo 70 power amp may just what they want. It is distinctively and totally "tube sound," and for some it may also be great. For some who want less second-harmonic distortion, more extended treble, and tighter bass, the Yaqin VK-2100 may fill the bill and still for not much money. I've also heard Jolida and Qinpu products that were both cheap and arguably "great." And although I like my McIntosh tube preamp, there are many who wouldn't because it would be "too neutral" or "not enough tube sound." So depending on what KIND of "great tube sound" one prefers, it may NOT be necessary to spend much money. Yes, durability, parts quality, and cosmetics all improve at higher price points, but not (necessarily) sound quality. I know we (strongly) disagree on these points audiobill , so I'll shut up now. And although we disagree, I definitely understand your point of view. Boomzilla |
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Post by jmasterj on Mar 10, 2016 10:18:25 GMT -5
This is where I usually chime in. I'll mention my cheap Chinese gear that I actually own and how I believe you can find what you are looking for with out spending a lot of money. Then someone else will say try something but steer clear of the cheap Chinese gear whatever you do. You would probably be surprised to find out that they have never even listened to the cheap Chinese gear, or the particular piece of Chinese gear you are referring to. After venturing down this road many times over the last few years the only thing I have to say is I'm personally very excited at the amount of interest in tube gear that's been buzzing around Emotiva's lounge lately.
We have seen the likes of boomzilla, and even novisnick, show interest. I can only speak for myself, and tell you that there is no way I would own XPA-1's, or a XPA-2, XPA-1L's, XPR-1's or a XPR-2 with out at least trying them out with a tube preamp or buffer. When I purchased my XPA-100's I knew I'd be getting a tube preamp for them. We've all tried Emotiva. I knew nothing about Emotiva before I purchased my ERC-1. I decided to keep an open mind and give them a try and wow I'm very satisfied. Is Emotiva the only manufacturer that can provide good equipment at a reasonable price. No! The only way to find out about a piece of equipment is to experiment.
So RCUBE
I'll say to you first pick you a price point, look at all the options at that price point and then choose the item that you feel will best serve your needs. Keep an open mind find out as much as you can about the item you're interested in don't be chased off because the gear was made in China or because it's not the most expensive gear remember until recently even Emotiva gear was made in China by the same people making the other Chinese gear go figure. Be fearless and try something.
NOBODY ON THIS FORUM CAN TELL YOU IF YOU LIKE TUBE SOUND... THE ONLY PERSON THAT CAN DETERMINE THAT IS YOU SO TAKE THE PLUNGE. KEEP US POSTED. J
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 10, 2016 10:40:01 GMT -5
I feel a need to insert a technical note here. It's somewhat difficult to design a tube power amp that sounds good and doesn't cost much; the reason is that the larger power supply, and, more importantly, the better output transformers, that you need to get reasonably good performance from a relatively powerful tube amp, cost money (and, these days, probably have to be special-ordered). However, if you're looking at preamps, and especially a simple line stage, with just an input selector and a volume control, NONE of the parts necessary to build a really good one are expensive. A really good tube line stage might use two tubes, and a few dozen other parts; a 12AU7, or a 12AX7, or a 6SN7, are all excellent tubes, and can be bought for $10 each; the fanciest and most expensive resistors that are even marginally worthwhile are $2 or $3 each; and really good capacitors are between about $1 and $10. So, for really premium parts, you're looking at a few hundred dollars. Anything beyond that really is either luxury build items (like a solid titanium chassis, gnawed out of a solid block of metal by magic beavers with diamond teeth, or solid gold bouncy feet and rhodium plated knobs), or snake oil pure and simple. It is possible that some specific brand of tube might have electrical characteristics that make it sound just the way you like, or may sound a tiny bit different than some other brand, and a few of the modern ones may actually be bad, but virtually all of the hype about how some specific brands and types are "so wonderful" is just that... hype. Back when tubes were actually current technology, an RCA 12AU7 cost $2, and a "premium Telefunken 12AU7" cost $2.50 . Therefore, if you're looking at a simple line stage, there is no technical reason for a preamp to cost more than $200 or $300, and nothing you can buy for $50k that can technically improve on a well though-out $200 design. (You can add more tubes for more gain, then use feedback to control that gain, and end up with lower distortion - but all you're doing is a lot of extra work to make your tube preamp perform - and sound - more like a solid state preamp... which seems rather silly to me.) So, if you really think the $5000 one sounds better, it really is just because you like it's tiny imperfections better than the tiny imperfections in the $200 one - not because it's actually better. (And, if you're into DIY, a simple plate-coupled 12AU7 gain stage, followed by a cathode follower, and all run from a decently regulated power supply, really is about as good as it gets... and most anything else you can add to that is either window dressing or is likely to make the performance worse rather than better. Sure, you can spend a lot more effort, and buy a lot more parts, and end up with worse performance and inferior sound... but why would you want to do that?) Note that I've limited that claim to simple line stages. Once you start adding extra features, like tone controls, the parts count multiplies rapidly, and using a whole bunch of $2 resistors, or dozens of $10 capacitors, can in fact justify a significantly higher price tag. Cheap equipment has nothing to do with great tube sound. No free lunch. |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 10:56:23 GMT -5
I agree, I was thinking primarily of power amps.....
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Post by yves on Mar 10, 2016 15:13:35 GMT -5
You would probably be surprised to find out that they have never even listened to the cheap Chinese gear, or the particular piece of Chinese gear you are referring to. Obviously, yes. |
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 10, 2016 15:47:43 GMT -5
I second Keith's recommendation. The Schiit Lyr makes a dandy tube buffer stage after a fashion, and you get a Headphone amp that is real powerful in the deal too. Check out their B stock from time to time. Just be aware the 15 day evaluation is waved, but your 5 year warranty is still in play.
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Post by vneal on Mar 10, 2016 18:05:14 GMT -5
Check out AIR TIGHT and the latest MCINTOSH tubed pre amps. These both would be on my short list
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 10, 2016 19:41:30 GMT -5
Wow!! Thanks so much folks!! That was a lot of honest advice and suggestions in the last few days. As an update, last night (after many folks here recommended) I pulled the speakers further away from the back and side walls (just a quick 5 min step) and got quiet a bit of noticeable improvement. - the WAF went up - I could raise the volume to -28 on the xsp ( -35 was max before I would be told it is too loud) and still got the spouse saying the music feels smoother and controlled than before and not loud at all. - the instruments sounded grounded to their location instead of stretched to cover the entire space between the speakers. - the bass was not having obvious reverb. Could specifically make this out in the live version of Clapton (wonderful tonight) when he strikes the bass chords. For the first time, With the M100 by themselves, I did not mind turning the sub off. I will be doing more placement experiments this weekend and post my findings. I suspect, there will be significant improvement  |
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 12, 2016 22:34:43 GMT -5
Definitely more improvements after playing with placement of the M100s!!
The sub is no longer needed for sure for music anyways.
The drums don't roll all over the soundstage.
Still some congestion though.
I have the passage directly in front of the right speaker which seems to make the sound seem lighter that side.
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 12, 2016 22:35:48 GMT -5
Will test with movies now.
I run only stereo for movies also and this should be interesting to see how it sounds.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 12, 2016 23:57:15 GMT -5
Will test with movies now. I run only stereo for movies also and this should be interesting to see how it sounds. My m80's are loike yours. They are VERY sensitive to speaker placement. A tmost placement positions it sounds okay but get the right placement...by inches....and it can sound really good. If you are not getting EXCELLENT SOUND .....something is off. Stretched to cover the entire stage sounds like it may also be an out of phase issue. Play this (Speaker phase test) www.richardfarrar.com/are-your-speakers-wired-correctly/The in phase should be right in the center. Out of phase should be all over the sound stage. Vague and somewhat diffuse. You noticed that moving hte speakers forward and aroudn realyl changed the sound right. Don't stop there. you need to keep experimenting! Even minute amounts of adjustment from where you moved it to could make differences. inch them one way and the other. Make large changes. Go crazy. Know that you can always move them back. So don't be afraid! Also another thing that can make things not feel groudned is toeing in. If your speakers are not correctly toed in this will do it. -Also of importance, your couch needs to be directly in the MIDDLE distance between the left and right speaker. If it's chilling off slightly to the left or right you will get this issue too. My m80's loved the heck out of acoustic panels. They made a significant difference. it also helped the bass. Before it was a bit on the loose side. The acoustic panels helped. Stick one behind you at head level on the wall and notice the differnece More is better. www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html |
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 14, 2016 6:41:23 GMT -5
Thanks Garbulky. The bass was anemic till I pulled them out of the corners. Bass is nice and tight now. I think the bigger problem (which I cannot correct) could be that there is a passage directly in front of one speaker. The reflections would not match those on the other side. I guess the panels you suggested could really help on this  ?? Will cork sheets have the same effect? I can't locate the link but I I read they can be used to isolate speakers so wonder if they will absorb the sound as well or nearly as ATS panels. Regarding the phase correction, I hear everything dead centre so that should not be an issue. I will try some more placement changes this week and update. Cheers Cube |
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