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Post by Jim on Mar 18, 2016 10:44:22 GMT -5
Is there any Audio Precision data posted for the XPA Gen3, or is that still in the works?
I thought I saw a PDF somewhere..... I just don't see it on the website.
It just normally shuts down some of the bickering about claimed vs actual specs. (Where the AP data does a nice job standing behind the claims)
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Post by bolle on Mar 18, 2016 10:50:14 GMT -5
@keithl: I think you answered my post but somehow edited it into my original posting? This looks a little bit weird to me...  |
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Post by ejn1111 on Mar 18, 2016 10:50:20 GMT -5
Is this new amp a digital design? Appears so but want to double check.
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Post by valgolfs on Mar 18, 2016 10:52:35 GMT -5
I am curious to find out if the GEN 3 equipment will affect the price of GEN 1 & 2 on the used market.
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2016 10:59:32 GMT -5
Is this new amp a digital design? Appears so but want to double check. They are class AB amp modules powered by a new switch mode power supply (SMPS). The Emersa line will be digital. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:18:49 GMT -5
This is an interesting discussion - and I think the performance (and sound quality) of our new XPA Gen3 amps will absolutely speak for itself, but I do want to point out a few specific things..... 1) On the subject of "our competition".... We're always forced into a choice between doing as you suggest "and just letting the products speak for themselves" and making a living. Just as a major car company can't come out with new models, then wait until someone happens to see one on the road, or borrow one from a neighbor, or wait until there are some serious reviews available to read, before considering a purchase, we are forced to promote our products so people find out about them in a timely fashion. Likewise, if we don't provide a variety of factual information - some of it in the format and style our competitors do - many people will never look deeply enough to ever "hear what the products have to say". (Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who really do believe that the single highest power number they see on the spec sheet is "the one that matters", and don't take the time to read about or understand the details.) Not to be crass, but, while you or I - and definitely Big Dan - may like the "reserved British gentleman approach" to sales, in the modern world it simply isn't very competitive... and may of those "respectable guys" are dying for lack of sales - so we really have little choice but to reach our audience in the way that the majority of them expect to be reached. We want people to know about our new XPA Gen3 amps NOW  (And don't forget that, with our 30 day return policy, everyone gets their own audition if there's any doubt about how much you'll like it.) 2) Everyone should also be aware that the amplifier modules in the XPA Gen3 amps are essentially the same as the output modules in our very well received XPR series. They use relatively normal Class A/B circuitry, coupled with a Class H power supply topology for improved efficiency, but there's nothing really strange there. As with any new product, they have a few minor tweaks and improvements here and there, but nobody should be expecting then to sound dramatically different than our previous generation XPA amps, or our XPR amps.... good is good and we aren't going to mess with that. 3) While we may use a bit of hyperbole in the sales literature, the new XPA Gen3 amps are really more "evolutionary" than "revolutionary". Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) have been around for years, and are a well understood technology. We've just started using them because they've just finally crossed a line whereby they can actually deliver better and more reliable performance than old style linear supplies at reasonable cost. What's "revolutionary" about them is that they can do the same job as an old "heavy iron" power supply, but they weigh a lot less - this means that your XPA gen3 amplifier will cost less to ship to you; it will cost less to ship back for an upgrade, or a repair if it should require one; and it's less likely to suffer shipping damage along the way. We see these all as significant improvements. (Perhaps "rendered obsolete" is a bit of an exaggeration... but, for many applications, that horse isn't first on the track any more.) Likewise, modular power amplifiers have existed in the past (we even made one years ago); all we've done is to refine the design to a point where it makes practical sense. 4) Prices go up; sadly it's just a reality of life. I don't think you'll find the slight increase in price to be out of line with the higher price you pay in a restaurant for a good steak lately. We also figure that you're earning a lot of that back by being able to upgrade the amp and add more channels if you need to - instead of replacing it. Not all of you will take advantage of that feature, but sending your XPA Gen3 in for a module upgrade is sure a lot less effort than selling your current amp and buying a new one with more channels, and adding two more channels to a 3 channel one is a lot simpler than buying a second amp, and then finding rack space for it. And don't forget that we're bringing manufacturing back here to the USA.... and, yes, that does cost more too. Of course, we'll be eagerly awaiting reviews and comments about our new amps - although we're not especially nervous about them because we already know what they're going to say  Marketing butter?? Take a look at the extremely detailed, FULL disclosure technical specifications and images of every detail of the amplifier. Now, go look at the specs. and technical details of ANY of our competition.. We love comparison and we have nothing to hide or gloss over, unlike many of brands out there... Take a real close look at other well know brands and let me know how you think we're not being real. Cheers, Big Dan Hi Dan, thank you for your answer! I think my post was a bit too provocative and misleading. I definitely didn´t want to imply that you aren´t real, I had and have real Emotiva components in my house, so I know you exist!  But let me explain my perspective. I personally am more the sceptical guy, which may also come from a professional life in Quality assurance and Quality Management. I personally also don´t like bold Claims not backed by cold facts whether they are true or not. So a text with passages like... "Massive old school transformers and giant filter capacitors are rendered obsolete. They just can't compete." "After carefully weighing all the pros and cons, we kept the best features of our original designs, added a new set of optimizations and improvements, and the result became the foundation of our new line of audiophile amplifiers. The XPA Gen 3 is a whole new ballgame." "Just ask many of our competitors to see their “all channels driven” power ratings and watch the dance begin... what should that tell you?" ...rather repels than attracts me. Especially the passage about the competition is not my style, I rather like the british Gentleman aproach here - let your products speak for themselves! I would also really like to see some Kind of Whitepaper coming out with a new Launch like this, diving deeper into the thoughts and decisions of Lonnie and Keith. Bruno Putzeys from Hypex did this for the UCD amplifiers, Grimm Audio als for their LS1 or Crown / HK or Nubert and these papers are always a very interesting read. I also think this Launch is special as well as importan for Emotiva. With the old XPA-series it was a no brainer - if you needed a good 5-channel amp for a very fair Price, Emotiva XPA-5 was the way to go. Now with quite a Price increase, the decision is tougher - especially for us over here in old Europe (Shipping, repairs...). So imho it will be really interesting to see how the Gen3 performs in the wild and also sells in the now higher Price Segment of the market. I don´t say the Price isn´t justified or too high or the amp isn´t good, it just is a different Position than before and I think there will need to be slightly different reasons now to sway the buyers than before. So I don´t say the Gen3 isn´t good and I also don´t say what you are stating on the page isn´t true, I am just anxious to see this backed up by Independent Tests, measurements and listening Reports (remember sceptical and QA here ). I wouldn´t be on this boards if there won´t be a Special place for Emotiva in my heart - I am just more the "new amps are the best Thing since sliced bread? Well let´s wait and see if that´s true..." Kind of guy and not Mr. "Yeeeeah Emotiva, new amps, awesome, woooohooooo!" type. So I guess I should be happy not having to work in Marketing. I think this is a really exciting Launch and I wish you all the best for it! I will also buy the EMP-1 when it´s available this year, still really happy with my UMC-200 all in all. Best regards Fabian |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:19:26 GMT -5
Yeah... looks like ProBoard did a funny there... all fixed... @keithl: I think you answered my post but somehow edited it into my original posting? This looks a little bit weird to me... |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:22:37 GMT -5
We're convinced they'll prove their reliability - else we wouldn't be using them. And heavier does have its downside..... like being harder to lift... and needing heavier shelving... and how it affects shipping costs (and the likelihood of shipping damage). While SUPER efficient and compact, I don't have a ton of faith in switching power supplies. In MY experience (Mostly computer power supplies), they have been very unforgiving with power surges and generally unreliable long term. I'm not saying that this will be the case with Emotiva, but I have my reservations. For me, I'm going to take a "wait and see" approach. Besides, the heavier the amp, the better the amp!!! |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:33:23 GMT -5
In this context "obsolete" means that it doesn't make sense to use them in particular applications any more. In very-high-power applications, switchers have finally surpassed linear power supplies in many ways. - which means that they are "the optimum design choice" in many new designs. Likewise, they also make sense in many low-power designs - for many of the same reasons. (They excel in efficiency, reliability, low weight, and producing VERY low amounts of hum which can leak into other circuitry.) However, linear power supplies still make sense in some new design applications. And, if a product you already have is doing its job, and doing it well, then it will never be obsolete, right? "Massive old school transformers and giant filter capacitors are rendered obsolete. They just can't compete. It's a revolution in power design, and it's the backbone of the new XPA modular amplifier system. It's the way of the future, and it's here now. Gee wiz, I guess ill have to bury my XPA-1L's in the back yard this week end.  I don't think the XPA-1L has a massive transformer so your amps are safe  . |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:49:27 GMT -5
All of our amps are stable into 2 ohms - but there's a distinction between "being stable into 2 ohms" and "being RATED for a 2 ohm load". Most speakers dip well below their rated impedance at certain points in their frequency range. Therefore, a significant number of "4 ohm" speakers actually drop to 3 ohms, or even 2 ohms, at some point. (And many "8 ohm" speakers drop to 6 ohms or 4 ohms in places.) All of our amps will work just fine with any of those speakers. (But some other amps, which are NOT stable into 2 ohms, may not.) However, when we talk about "recommended load impedance", we're talking about being able to run at high power for extended periods of time into that load. The reality is that ANY Class A/B amplifier that is designed to work well with 8 ohm or 4 ohm speakers will be operating VERY inefficiently into a 2 ohm load. In short, all of our amps will work just fine with a speaker that dips to 2 ohms in places - especially with music which doesn't require full power output continuously. They will cheerfully deliver lots of power into 2 ohms for short periods of time. (And, because of our Optimized Class H architecture, the new XPA Gen3 amps should run cooler that way than the previous XPA Gen2 models.) However, we don't at all recommend that you do stuff like run full power tests into a 2 ohm test resistor - because they will probably eventually overheat. (The only amps we make which would be really unhappy playing music into a speaker that dips down that low would be the XPA-2 Gen1 or the XPA-2 Gen2 - running in bridged mode.) It says right in the specs that it only supports 4 ohm speakers.... "Minimum Recommended Load Impedance 4 Ohms; which equals one 4 Ohm load or two paralleled 8 Ohm loads." Hmm, for some reason I thought they had other amps rated for 2 ohms. I'm glad that got straightened out. |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 11:52:48 GMT -5
However, to be totally fair, prices DO go up... especially over time... and that includes the price of parts... not to mention American labor (vs Chinese). (I may be dating myself, but I distinctly remember being annoyed when gasoline went up from 28 cents a gallon to 33 cents a gallon.) So, if you want to be fair, then you need to compare the prices to those of other products of equal or better performance. And, if you do, I think you'll find out that our prices are still VERY reasonable. "Slight" perhaps for the 2-3 channel but no steak has gone up 60% lately like the XPA-5. Let's not get lazy with our adjectives. However if it is comparable to an XPR, then one must compare the price of XPR-5 to the XPA-5 Gen3 and that's where the consumer wins. Yeah...I think I paid about $800 for my XPA-5 brand new on sale. I would have to pay double for the new version today. I realize it may be better, but that much? Just thinking out loud. |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 18, 2016 12:30:16 GMT -5
I was annoyed when gas went from 25 cents to 28 cents per gallon.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 18, 2016 12:48:51 GMT -5
"Slight" perhaps for the 2-3 channel but no steak has gone up 60% lately like the XPA-5. Let's not get lazy with our adjectives. However if it is comparable to an XPR, then one must compare the price of XPR-5 to the XPA-5 Gen3 and that's where the consumer wins. Yeah...I think I paid about $800 for my XPA-5 brand new on sale. I would have to pay double for the new version today. I realize it may be better, but that much? Just thinking out loud. I paid $600 for a 6 month old gen 1 XPA-5. I sold that and bought my XPR-5.... I thought it was well worth the upgrade price but it's all relative. What are you powering? If someone is powering $300 bookshelves or some Cerwin Vegas, I'd say upgrade the speakers. But like me at the time when I upgrade 15 year old DefTechs to my Revel Performa3s, it made sense to get an amp that I can set and forget. I honestly find amplifiers one of the least interesting components but I want my amps to be able to laugh at whatever I throw at it. The XPA-5 wasn't quite up to that task with my Revels. If the gen3 is lives up to its billing, it'll be a set and forget it amp too. I'll find out at Audiogon. |
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Post by novisnick on Mar 18, 2016 13:03:24 GMT -5
Yeah...I think I paid about $800 for my XPA-5 brand new on sale. I would have to pay double for the new version today. I realize it may be better, but that much? Just thinking out loud. I paid $600 for a 6 month old gen 1 XPA-5. I sold that and bought my XPR-5.... I thought it was well worth the upgrade price but it's all relative. What are you powering? If someone is powering $300 bookshelves or some Cerwin Vegas, I'd say upgrade the speakers. But like me at the time when I upgrade 15 year old DefTechs to my Revel Performa3s, it made sense to get an amp that I can set and forget. I honestly find amplifiers one of the least interesting components but I want my amps to be able to laugh at whatever I throw at it. The XPA-5 wasn't quite up to that task with my Revels. If the gen3 is lives up to its billing, it'll be a set and forget it amp too. I'll find out at Audiogon. So glad I purchased my Emotiva XPR-1's  |
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Post by gzubeck on Mar 18, 2016 13:23:08 GMT -5
What concerns me is that there will be no high quality solutions under $500 dollars. Im using the mini- a100 and would like to see something a little beefier and cleaner for two channel setups but im not sure we will see anything like that going forward. I would like to remind emotiva that continuing to raise prices is going to send alot of customers looking elswhere. My perception is that emotiva is now looking to compete on the factory direct high end which saves you 25-50% of retail prices. You are now competing with every high end manufacturer in the marketplace when your prices start at $1000. Even your $500 two channel amp has alot of competition even on the retail level. I really get the feeling that initial adopters are paying the the r&d on this product.
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Post by rbk123 on Mar 18, 2016 13:43:42 GMT -5
The podcast before this one referenced the Base-X line which would have nothing cost more than $599, so you should get your wish sometime this year. We'll have to see what those are like.
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Post by rbk123 on Mar 18, 2016 14:16:45 GMT -5
So glad I purchased my Emotiva XPR-1's What? Those obsolete things? |
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Post by tchaik on Mar 18, 2016 14:33:20 GMT -5
Seriously considering a trip to Axpona in Chicago in April to check out the New Emotiva offerings.........  do it. you will not be disappointed. then check out the other amps that cost as much as a medium sized car. ask yourself if emotiva is on the right track or not. i will be going…… tchaik………. |
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Post by tchaik on Mar 18, 2016 14:42:49 GMT -5
We're convinced they'll prove their reliability - else we wouldn't be using them. And heavier does have its downside..... like being harder to lift... and needing heavier shelving... and how it affects shipping costs (and the likelihood of shipping damage). i can still lift my XPR's. once that becomes impossible then i will move to the XPA-gen3'S. actually i will probably buy the XPA-2 gen 3 just to compare with my XPR-2, then probably move to another room in the house or give to one of my kids. they all love great sound but won't pay for it. they wait for dad to recycle his used equipment. tchaik………. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2016 15:52:27 GMT -5
Just in case you were wondering, there will be a new generation Mini-X sometime soon. (Rumors are that it might even have a... gasp... headphone output... ). But no details yet...  There are also power amps in the BasX series near the top of that price range. What concerns me is that there will be no high quality solutions under $500 dollars. Im using the mini- a100 and would like to see something a little beefier and cleaner for two channel setups but im not sure we will see anything like that going forward. I would like to remind emotiva that continuing to raise prices is going to send alot of customers looking elswhere. My perception is that emotiva is now looking to compete on the factory direct high end which saves you 25-50% of retail prices. You are now competing with every high end manufacturer in the marketplace when your prices start at $1000. Even your $500 two channel amp has alot of competition even on the retail level. I really get the feeling that initial adopters are paying the the r&d on this product. |
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