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Post by HTfanHungary on Mar 20, 2016 7:32:37 GMT -5
The disconnect in here is you are comparing yourself against your competitors (and no doubt come out favorably), whereas everyone else here is comparing you against your prior self. This^ I love Emotiva. Great amplifiers. I boast about mine every time someone sees it for the first time. No doubt the new Gen 3 will kick ass. However, the consumer price index has gone up about 10.5% since the launch of the XPA-5. Now once Gen 3 is the only amplifier you can buy from them, the comparable amp is around 77% more expensive than the original XPA-5. Is it better and more advanced? I have no doubt, I trust Emotiva completely. Having said that, you'd be foolish to think they aren't going to lose some of their customer base - regardless of how much better it is than the competition. At those SRPs, you simply cost too much for some of your existing customers. Is that where the new Emersa line comes in? Maybe.... Some of us don't want the smaller, streamlined look. I've built my entire theater around a bang-for-buck concept that has obviously made sense to include Emotiva. At the future retails and the lack of appeal of the Emersa line to a consumer like myself, I'm not sure that I'll be able to say that going forward. Reviews may prove your 1600.00 amp to be better than everyone else's 2500.00 amp, but if I'm still only shopping sub 1k amplifiers - you've left me to either purchase a digital amp or get left out completely. If there is a BaseX line still to come then I would say that keeping the XPA name for the Gen3 seems to be a mistake from a marketing point of view. Most of us perceive Gen3 as a similar product to the previous amp yet it is a different one! I would call this another evolution. What we see is that Emotiva launches a new generation of an amp for at least 60% higher price (for 5 channels). This sounds brutal even in spite of the considerable innovation. Therefore I would name the new model differently, e.g. XPB modular amp or whatever. Otherwise people will keep comparing it to the predecessor (Gen2). And since there are technical elements from the XPR line incorporated into the Gen3 I would position it higher and make a distinction from the former XPA amplifiers (and that would immediately confirm the higher price). So there would be Emersa, BaseX and XP..whatever. After all of that most of the hardcore Emo fans will miss the former XPR models as flagships.... Peace. |
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Post by smarties on Mar 20, 2016 7:42:47 GMT -5
Still think a single Atmos amp would be good.
Or add a amp with not as much power, but lots of channels, so you can have a XPA-3 for the most important channels and then the rest (8 channels?) for side x2 /rears x2 /ceiling x 4
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Post by wadec22 on Mar 20, 2016 9:48:23 GMT -5
This^ I love Emotiva. Great amplifiers. I boast about mine every time someone sees it for the first time. No doubt the new Gen 3 will kick ass. However, the consumer price index has gone up about 10.5% since the launch of the XPA-5. Now once Gen 3 is the only amplifier you can buy from them, the comparable amp is around 77% more expensive than the original XPA-5. Is it better and more advanced? I have no doubt, I trust Emotiva completely. Having said that, you'd be foolish to think they aren't going to lose some of their customer base - regardless of how much better it is than the competition. At those SRPs, you simply cost too much for some of your existing customers. Is that where the new Emersa line comes in? Maybe.... Some of us don't want the smaller, streamlined look. I've built my entire theater around a bang-for-buck concept that has obviously made sense to include Emotiva. At the future retails and the lack of appeal of the Emersa line to a consumer like myself, I'm not sure that I'll be able to say that going forward. Reviews may prove your 1600.00 amp to be better than everyone else's 2500.00 amp, but if I'm still only shopping sub 1k amplifiers - you've left me to either purchase a digital amp or get left out completely. If there is a BaseX line still to come then I would say that keeping the XPA name for the Gen3 seems to be a mistake from a marketing point of view. Most of us perceive Gen3 as a similar product to the previous amp yet it is a different one! I would call this another evolution. What we see is that Emotiva launches a new generation of an amp for at least 60% higher price (for 5 channels). This sounds brutal even in spite of the considerable innovation. Therefore I would name the new model differently, e.g. XPB modular amp or whatever. Otherwise people will keep comparing it to the predecessor (Gen2). And since there are technical elements from the XPR line incorporated into the Gen3 I would position it higher and make a distinction from the former XPA amplifiers (and that would immediately confirm the higher price). So there would be Emersa, BaseX and XP..whatever. After all of that most of the hardcore Emo fans will miss the former XPR models as flagships.... Peace. I agree. I was unaware of the BaseX line, so maybe that will be the answer for someone like myself. The naming is odd. They can't name Gen 3 XPR b/c the comparable power is not there. Will BaseX have XPA power or just be non-digital Emersa power equivalents? If it's the latter, Emotiva will still be better value than most of it's competitors but have a fraction of the value that it used to have. This could push a lot of the customer base that jumped on Emotiva as an affordable separates solution back to AVR. Even if Emotiva has a superior product, the total spend comes into play for the bang for buck shopper and that dollar amount only increases so much each year. It'll be interesting. Most of us jump to these conclusions within minutes of reading about Gen 3, I'm sure Emotiva has thought all of this through as well and should have a solution coming. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 20, 2016 15:18:12 GMT -5
I have a DMC-1/MPS-1 combination. Has anyone done a technical comparison of the MPS-1 with the new XPA Generation 3 amplifiers? These new "Gen3" Amps seem like the first new Emotive product which might be a worthy successor to the MPS-1 (which I absolutely love). I'm planning on picking up some Legacy Audio Focus SE L-R Mains with one of their Cinema HD Center channels. The SE's at 4Ω and each have two 12" woofers. I'm thinking that I might need more power to drive them than the MPS-1 can provide ...
Casey
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Post by garbulky on Mar 20, 2016 15:42:56 GMT -5
If you are looking Legacy I would also consider upgrading DACs and purchasing the XPA-1 gen 2s. They have got a good amount of power and sound better than their multichannel amps (imo.)
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Post by rcheliguy on Mar 20, 2016 16:57:32 GMT -5
I am curious about one thing.
I just got hit by a rather large lightning strike. It took my cablemodem / router / a garage door opener and seriously damaged both of my HVAC systems.
I also lost a 65" TV, DVR, OPPO 105D etc..
My XPA-2 was plugged straight into the wall and sustained no damage I'm aware of.
Here is my concern. The new switching powersupply on the Gen 3 looks very efficient and really nice, but considering the potential current draw it would still probably need to be plugged straight into the wall socket and I wonder how those electronics handle lightning. The old heavy stuff is pretty durable.
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Post by novisnick on Mar 20, 2016 17:07:17 GMT -5
I am curious about one thing. I just got hit by a rather large lightning strike. It took my cablemodem / router / a garage door opener and seriously damaged both of my HVAC systems. I also lost a 65" TV, DVR, OPPO 105D etc.. My XPA-2 was plugged straight into the wall and sustained no damage I'm aware of. Here is my concern. The new switching powersupply on the Gen 3 looks very efficient and really nice, but considering the potential current draw it would still probably need to be plugged straight into the wall socket and I wonder how those electronics handle lightning. The old heavy stuff is pretty durable. So sorry for you loss my friend!   Did the storm just roll in on you? Or did you know it was coming? When im looking at the weather and see something, I just shrug and unplug everything. Ive had the cable wire inside the cable box vaporize.!! Lost a bunch of gear. Please keep us posted, that was a great question too! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 20, 2016 17:28:34 GMT -5
If you are looking Legacy I would also consider upgrading DACs and purchasing the XPA-1 gen 2s. They have got a good amount of power and sound better than their multichannel amps (imo.) Ha! That would definitely be enough power, but I was hoping not to spend $2,400 just for the front L-R Mains ...  But definitely attractive ... Casey |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 20, 2016 18:33:24 GMT -5
If you are looking Legacy I would also consider upgrading DACs and purchasing the XPA-1 gen 2s. They have got a good amount of power and sound better than their multichannel amps (imo.) Ha! That would definitely be enough power, but I was hoping not to spend $2,400 just for the front L-R Mains ... But definitely attractive ... Casey You could likely get it used with transferrable warranty for a gen 2 for about $1400 to 1600. A DC-1 is just a real winner combo with it when run balanced to it directly. Very resolving DAC. You can usually get it for between $375 to $400. Still isn't cheap. But you get what you pay for. If you are willing to get such good speakers I think these electronics (plus some modest acoustic treatments say $250.) will help you get the best out of it. |
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Post by jevans64 on Mar 21, 2016 4:59:57 GMT -5
I am curious about one thing. I just got hit by a rather large lightning strike. It took my cablemodem / router / a garage door opener and seriously damaged both of my HVAC systems. I also lost a 65" TV, DVR, OPPO 105D etc.. My XPA-2 was plugged straight into the wall and sustained no damage I'm aware of. Here is my concern. The new switching powersupply on the Gen 3 looks very efficient and really nice, but considering the potential current draw it would still probably need to be plugged straight into the wall socket and I wonder how those electronics handle lightning. The old heavy stuff is pretty durable. Hope your insurance comes through for you on replacements. I've never trusted plugging anything straight into the receptacle. I bought Emotiva CMX-2 units for both my XPR-5 and XPA-7, which are each on their own 20-amp circuit. No problems so far going through a few rough storms last summer plus a lot of power losses/restores when not at home. I'm going to guess that the power supply in the Gen 3 is going to be very similar to what is in pretty-much all modern computer systems and would treat it accordingly. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 21, 2016 6:50:51 GMT -5
I am curious about one thing. I just got hit by a rather large lightning strike. It took my cablemodem / router / a garage door opener and seriously damaged both of my HVAC systems. I also lost a 65" TV, DVR, OPPO 105D etc.. My XPA-2 was plugged straight into the wall and sustained no damage I'm aware of. Here is my concern. The new switching powersupply on the Gen 3 looks very efficient and really nice, but considering the potential current draw it would still probably need to be plugged straight into the wall socket and I wonder how those electronics handle lightning. The old heavy stuff is pretty durable. Hope your insurance comes through for you on replacements. I've never trusted plugging anything straight into the receptacle. I bought Emotiva CMX-2 units for both my XPR-5 and XPA-7, which are each on their own 20-amp circuit. No problems so far going through a few rough storms last summer plus a lot of power losses/restores when not at home. I'm going to guess that the power supply in the Gen 3 is going to be very similar to what is in pretty-much all modern computer systems and would treat it accordingly. You realize the CMX-2 and CMX-6 offer no surge suppression, right? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 21, 2016 12:25:43 GMT -5
I've posted this spreadsheet before, this one's been updated with the latest specs and prices. I like to use dollar per Watt for comparisons as it gives an objective value. What first jumped out at me was that the XPA-2/3 price increase could probably be called reasonable, while the XPA-5 and XPA-7 are more significant (though the XPA-5 is still the sweet spot in $/W, and you get more power). Update: With the price drop the XPA-2 G3 is the same price, and the XPA-3 G3 is the same price per Watt. One price analysis might conclude we're paying $599 (edit: now $499) for the empty chassis, and then paying 'retail' ($200) for each of the modules. We can't say for sure this is true for the XPA-2 G3, but it's certainly true for all the higher channel models (there's a $200 increase for each channel above 2). Normally you might expect some economy of scale for the higher channel amps, but that hasn't always been the case and it's not here. You might argue the additional cost for shipping the higher channel models is built in to the price, it appears each module weighs about 3.5 pounds (18 pound difference between the XPA-2 and XPA-7), so shipping differences should be minimal. You'd think however, that stuffing and testing more boards at the same time would save some on production costs. What we don't know is Emotiva's profit on the previous line, maybe they were making a lower margin on the larger models, and the new pricing brings all the models in line with one another. Anyway that's my attempt at an objective comparison between the lines. Depending on what happens with the Reference series I could see replacing my XPA-7 G2 with a G3. Why? I'm going to rebuild by cabinets with a goal of a smaller footprint and less visual impact. The 7G3 is 1U shorter and lighter, it fits in with my design goal. I'm reasonably confident it will sound at least as good, and possibly better.  Edit: The spreadsheet was updated with the new lower prices. |
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Post by Bonzo on Mar 21, 2016 12:52:38 GMT -5
And,,,,,I really hate to bring this up,,,,,!! But, it needs to be asked. 
How much will an eventual upgrade power module cost? Hey Nick, here's a post by Dan from a couple days ago that should answer your question. Remember, 300 watt blades only cost $200.00. It'll be a very nominal fee for additions and shipping if you decide to re-configure. Also, your amplifier will be completely run through testing and burn-in when it is sent in for modifications. Nice. We are very concerned about others doing this, even though it seems simple, because of the very high internal voltages present and the need to properly QC the amplifiers after changes have been made. Cheers, Big Dan Module = $200. Okay. Shipping = $50 each way = $100. Okay. "Nominal fee for additions" = That's the current question. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 21, 2016 13:00:10 GMT -5
Hey Nick, here's a post by Dan from a couple days ago that should answer your question. Module = $200. Okay. Shipping = $50 each way = $100. Okay. "Nominal fee for additions" = That's the current question. Listen to the podcast or what Dan has written, you pay to get it to Emo, they install the module, test and ship it back for $200. |
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Post by Bonzo on Mar 21, 2016 13:05:43 GMT -5
This lends itself to yet another question that hasn't been brought up. How long were those old modular amps sold? And for how long could you buy upgrade modules? If a key bonus point to selling "upgradable modularity" is the ability to upgrade "sometime" in the future, then the "time" of the future also means quite a bit. I would not call 2 to 4 years very upgradable or modular myself. Emotiva would have to be committed to making "old amp" modules for years and years, even after they've moved onto newer amps. They didn't do that before did they? Or did they? So why would they do it this time? So I don't really consider the "future upgradability" all that. I think the option be able to buy how ever many channels you want, custom, from the beginning is more important. Like being able to buy a 4 or 6 channel amp. Or a 14 channel 150 wpc amp (which appears to have been done on the older amps). Or a 3 channel at 300wpc and 8 channels at 150wpc all in the same chassis much more unique and ultimately important. |
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Post by rcheliguy on Mar 21, 2016 13:07:39 GMT -5
Hope your insurance comes through for you on replacements. I've never trusted plugging anything straight into the receptacle. I bought Emotiva CMX-2 units for both my XPR-5 and XPA-7, which are each on their own 20-amp circuit. No problems so far going through a few rough storms last summer plus a lot of power losses/restores when not at home. I'm going to guess that the power supply in the Gen 3 is going to be very similar to what is in pretty-much all modern computer systems and would treat it accordingly. You realize the CMX-2 and CMX-6 offer no surge suppression, right? My home owners insurance is very good. I'm not worried. I've already replaced my 3 year old blown 65" HD TV with a new 65" UHD and I really like it. My HVAC has been a nightmare. I installed ultra high efficiency TRANE units and I lost communication boards on both furnaces and both driver boards ( $2,000 ea) on my AC units. They have computers in them to optimally adjust the variable speed scroll compressors and variable speed blower fan motor. They got the AC's working last Friday, but the main furnace still has issues for heat where it the blower cycles between 100% and 0% every couple seconds. I haven't actually seen the bill for what Trane is covering or the labor. FWIW my Martin Logan Ethos are also directly connected to the wall as well and they appear to be unaffected. They each have a class D amp in them, but they were in standby mode. There are VERY few surges that are rated for more than 15A total, so I'm not sure what you would protect an amp with without going to the very pricey units. |
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Post by Bonzo on Mar 21, 2016 13:17:40 GMT -5
Module = $200. Okay. Shipping = $50 each way = $100. Okay. "Nominal fee for additions" = That's the current question. Listen to the podcast or what Dan has written, you pay to get it to Emo, they install the module, test and ship it back for $200. Dan has written "nominal fee for additions." I didn't listen to the new podcast because I found the previous 3 or 4 basically pointless, almost annoyingly so. So if you buy it new with the modules in it, it's $200 for each module. But you are saying this. If you upgrade later, it's still only $200? So they charge nothing extra to receive the box, open the box, open up the amp, install the module, close it back up, burn it in, test it, pack it all back up and label it? So they would basically only be charging you like $150 for the module, and 2 hours @ $25 per hour for the labor? Really? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 21, 2016 13:25:34 GMT -5
Listen to the podcast or what Dan has written, you pay to get it to Emo, they install the module, test and ship it back for $200. Dan has written "nominal fee for additions." I didn't listen to the new podcast because I found the previous 3 or 4 basically pointless, almost annoyingly so. So if you buy it new with the modules in it, it's $200 for each module. But you are saying this. If you upgrade later, it's still only $200? So they charge nothing extra to receive the box, open the box, open up the amp, install the module, close it back up, burn it in, test it, pack it all back up and label it? So they would basically only be charging you like $150 for the module, and 2 hours @ $25 per hour for the labor? Really? Yes, that's correct, you pay $200 plus shipping TO Emotiva (or drop off if you're a local like geebo). Edit: Sorry Bonzo I can't find the reference for this, I was sure I read or heard it in a podcast, but I can't find it, so you can remain skeptical for the time being.  |
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Post by HTfanHungary on Mar 21, 2016 14:08:11 GMT -5
I've posted this spreadsheet before, this one's been updated with the latest specs and prices. I like to use dollar per Watt for comparisons as it gives an objective value. What first jumped out at me was that the XPA-2 G3 price increase could probably be called reasonable, while the XPA-5 and XPA-7 are more significant (though the XPA-5 is still the sweet spot in $/W, and you get more power).. One price analysis might conclude we're paying $599 for the empty chassis, and then paying 'retail' ($200) for each of the modules. We can't say for sure this is true for the XPA-2 G3, but it's certainly true for all the higher channel models (there's a $200 increase for each channel above 2). Normally you might expect some economy of scale for the higher channel amps, but that hasn't always been the case and it's not here. You might argue the additional cost for shipping the higher channel models is built in to the price, it appears each module weighs about 3.5 pounds (18 pound difference between the XPA-2 and XPA-7), so shipping differences should be minimal. You'd think however, that stuffing and testing more boards at the same time would save some on production costs. What we don't know is Emotiva's profit on the previous line, maybe they were making a lower margin on the larger models, and the new pricing brings all the models in line with one another. Anyway that's my attempt at an objective comparison between the lines. Depending on what happens with the Reference series I could see replacing my XPA-7 G2 with a G3. Why? I'm going to rebuild by cabinets with a goal of a smaller footprint and less visual impact. The 7G3 is 1U shorter and lighter, it fits in with my design goal. I'm reasonably confident it will sound at least as good, and possibly better. Nice comparison by wattage/channel and price/Watt. Thanks! Peace. |
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Post by ntculenuf on Mar 21, 2016 19:16:13 GMT -5
These Gen 3 amps have got me itching to finally replace my Adcom GFA7500. I like the look and the specifications. Been reading and looking at the product page all day.
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But definitely attractive ...
