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Post by AudioHTIT on May 8, 2016 10:22:23 GMT -5
I don't see anything technically stopping someone from putting two, fully balanced monoblocks in one case. Right, there are many examples of fully balanced stereo amps on the market, even some multichannel ones; the only disadvantage is size and cost. If the OP's definition of 'discrete' means separate power supplies, then the XPA G3 wouldn't qualify, but I don't think that's a requirement to make a good balanced amp. The balanced modules for the G3 will give a significant addition to the line. |
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Post by pedrocols on May 8, 2016 11:14:59 GMT -5
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 13:48:10 GMT -5
I don't see anything technically stopping someone from putting two, fully balanced monoblocks in one case. But, it seems to defeat a key purpose on monoblocks... That being, monoblocks can be placed close to the speaker minimizing speaker cable lengths AND looking awesome/intimidating sitting on a little stand (or in my case, hanging on the wall!) near the speaker. In one case, that's not going to happen! Mark Right now you can get single blocks of amplification that use independent power supplies with differential inputs and differential outputs like the XPA-1L, XPA-1 and XPR-1. There is also the exotic and expensive dual mono's with independent power supplies with differential inputs and differential outputs like Pedrocols posted.  You can get two channels of pre amplification in a single chassis with differential inputs and differential outputs like the XMC-1, XSP-1 and DC-1. You can go fully balanced or single ended from that differential preamp to many two channel amplifiers but If you want to keep it fully differential from input to outputs you have to buy monoblocks. A single chassis fully balanced differential two channel amplifier using the new Gen 3 XPA platform modules could be possible. Or not ? |
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Post by novisnick on May 8, 2016 13:57:49 GMT -5
I don't see anything technically stopping someone from putting two, fully balanced monoblocks in one case. But, it seems to defeat a key purpose on monoblocks... That being, monoblocks can be placed close to the speaker minimizing speaker cable lengths AND looking awesome/intimidating sitting on a little stand (or in my case, hanging on the wall!) near the speaker. In one case, that's not going to happen! Mark Right now you can get single blocks of amplification that use independent power supplies with differential inputs and differential outputs like the XPA-1L, XPA-1 and XPR-1. There is also the exotic and expensive dual mono's with independent power supplies with differential inputs and differential outputs like Pedrocols posted. You can get two channels of pre amplification in a single chassis with differential inputs and differential outputs like the XSP-1 and DC-1. You can go fully balanced or single ended from that differential preamp to many two channel amplifiers but If you want to keep it fully differential from input to outputs you have to buy monoblocks. A single chassis fully balanced differential two channel amplifier using the new Gen 3 XPA platform modules could be possible. Or not ? Less then 3' from monoblock to speaker, I think thats optimal!! |
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Post by novisnick on May 8, 2016 13:59:29 GMT -5
Can they put two XPA-1 's in one Chassis ? Can you lift it? AND move it?  |
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Post by dima333a on May 8, 2016 14:06:26 GMT -5
Frankly I do not even understand why the argument. Differential amp is essentially equal to two regular amplifiers. XPA Gen 3 chassis can fit up to 7 regular modules. The space for 4 regular modules should be sufficient to fit 2 differential amps. In the worst case they can use 3 slots per differential module and still fit 2 channels in the chassis. It will not be a mono-block, as the power supply module still will be shared, but the rest can be covered.
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 14:07:45 GMT -5
Can they put two XPA-1 's in one Chassis ? Can you lift it? AND move it? View AttachmentI did not mean it literally Nick.  The new Gen 3 switching power supply and modules are half the weight of the Gen 2 toroidal massive power supplies, capacitors and heatsinks. Time to rethink what you can put in one chassis and also get the performance and output of a single XPA-1. |
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Post by novisnick on May 8, 2016 14:15:29 GMT -5
Can you lift it? AND move it? I did not mean it literally Nick. The new Gen 3 switching power supply and modules are half the weight of the Gen 2 toroidal massive power supplies, capacitors and heatsinks. Time to rethink what you can put in one chassis and also get the performance and output of a single XPA-1. And now you should come to the conclusion that I AM a LITERALIST!! Too many people rely on "you know what I ment" vs what they've actually said. Words have meanings is often my response,,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,, yes, I can be difficult, its an endearing trait, not a bad habit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,me's thinks!! ,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,,.,..,.,,.,.,.,.,,..,,.,.,,..,,.,..,..,.,.,.,.,.,.,,..,.,,..,.,.,.,.,,..,,..,,..,.,,..,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,..,,.,.,,,,  |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 14:17:02 GMT -5
Frankly I do not even understand why the argument. Differential amp is essentially equal to two regular amplifiers. XPA Gen 3 chassis can fit up to 7 regular modules. The space for 4 regular modules should be sufficient to fit 2 differential amps. In the worst case they can use 3 slots per differential module and still fit 2 channels in the chassis. It will not be a mono-block, as the power supply module still will be shared, but the rest can be covered. No it will not be a mono-block. it will be a dual-mono. Can you make each channel fully differential from input to output with one Gen 3 switching power supply. If not, could you with two Gen 3 switching power supplies in a single chassis ? Will Would these fully differential modules be single or doublewide ? I am not talking 1000 watts per channel, just that they are fully balanced differential from input to output. |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 14:42:35 GMT -5
I did not mean it literally Nick. The new Gen 3 switching power supply and modules are half the weight of the Gen 2 toroidal massive power supplies, capacitors and heatsinks. Time to rethink what you can put in one chassis and also get the performance and output of a single XPA-1. And now you should come to the conclusion that I AM a LITERALIST!! Too many people rely on "you know what I ment" vs what they've actually said. Words have meanings is often my response,,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,, yes, I can be difficult, its an endearing trait, not a bad habit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,me's thinks!! ,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,,.,..,.,,.,.,.,.,,..,,.,.,,..,,.,..,..,.,.,.,.,.,.,,..,.,,..,.,.,.,.,,..,,..,,..,.,,..,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,..,,.,.,,,, View Attachment Nick the whole point of this is to destroy you and your Evil Mono Block society.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 8, 2016 15:57:03 GMT -5
No it will not be a mono-block. it will be a dual-mono. Can you make each channel fully differential from input to output with one Gen 3 switching power supply. If not, could you with two Gen 3 switching power supplies in a single chassis ? Will Would these fully differential modules be single or doublewide ? I am not talking 1000 watts per channel, just that they are fully balanced differential from input to output. All that we can go by is what was announced, with the caveat Keith posted elsewhere, that anything can change. It would be a double wide, quad differential (fully balanced) module, with possibly 500 watts into 8 ohms. It would not be 'dual mono' in the traditional sense, because it would have a single power supply. It would be a fully balanced stereo amp (or three channel), nothing revolutionary, but a powerful addition to the line. AND If you did want a mono block you could do that too, with either balanced or unbalanced modules. |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 16:25:21 GMT -5
No it will not be a mono-block. it will be a dual-mono. Can you make each channel fully differential from input to output with one Gen 3 switching power supply. If not, could you with two Gen 3 switching power supplies in a single chassis ? Will Would these fully differential modules be single or doublewide ? I am not talking 1000 watts per channel, just that they are fully balanced differential from input to output. All that we can go by is what was announced, with the caveat Keith posted elsewher, that anything can change. It would be a double wide, quad differential (fully balanced) module, with possibly 500 watts into 8 ohms. It would not be 'dual mono' in the traditional sense, because it would have a single power supply. It would be a fully balanced stereo amp (or three channel), nothing revolutionary, but a powerful addition to the line. AND If you did want a mono block you could do that too, with either balanced or unbalanced modules. Quad Differential module. A single power supply would require these two separate double wide quad differential modules to share the same power and because this the audio signal will have crosstalk like a stereo amplifier ? Why does mono audio require an isolated power supply ? Could a double wide quad differential module keep it's audio signal separate from it's neighbor ? |
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Post by repeetavx on May 8, 2016 16:30:43 GMT -5
Ok,so I vertically bi-amp my main right /left speakers with two XPA-2s. Even though I use one chassis per speaker, they're not monoblocks because they are "stereo " amps. Fine, whatever.
But look at it this way. Let's say we're using an XPA-1. A real monoblock.
How many power supplies are there per speaker? One, just like my XPA-2.
Does the one power supply, power both the woofers and the tweeters. Yes, just like my XPA-2.
But, of course, because it is two amplifier modules off of one power supply. They don't count monoblocks.
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 16:55:15 GMT -5
Ok,so I vertically bi-amp my main right /left speakers with two XPA-2s. Even though I use one chassis per speaker, they're not monoblocks because they are "stereo " amps. Fine, whatever. But look at it this way. Let's say we're using an XPA-1. A real monoblock. How many power supplies are there per speaker? One, just like my XPA-2. Does the one power supply, power both the woofers and the tweeters. Yes, just like my XPA-2. But, of course, because it is two amplifier modules off of one power supply. They don't count monoblocks. I am not talking monoblock. I am talking Dual Mono. Take this Dual Mono that pedrocols posted pics of. It uses two power supplies and two separate power cords. The separate power cords puzzles me. One power cord to the chassis with separate wires to each power supply sounds logical to me because unless you plane on using one cord plugged into your house and the other into your neighbors, I don't get it. You do not need your power wires coated with fairy dust and unicorn tears. I could be wrong.  There is a lot of room in there. Kinda looks to me that if they wanted to they could fit two separate switching power supplies in there.  |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 17:18:34 GMT -5
novisnick you are on my short list for Vice President of the Dual Mono Society as soon I win the nomination.  Until the XPA-1 goes the way of the Dodo bird, keep pouring that Blue cool aide. I am sorry that I said what I said but that's politics.
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Post by srpawski on May 8, 2016 17:22:22 GMT -5
You guys are speaking a foreign language. I have no idea what in the hell you are debating other than cramming 2 big huge amps into one steel container, but its fun to watch.  |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 17:31:44 GMT -5
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 8, 2016 17:39:20 GMT -5
All that we can go by is what was announced, with the caveat Keith posted elsewher, that anything can change. It would be a double wide, quad differential (fully balanced) module, with possibly 500 watts into 8 ohms. It would not be 'dual mono' in the traditional sense, because it would have a single power supply. It would be a fully balanced stereo amp (or three channel), nothing revolutionary, but a powerful addition to the line. AND If you did want a mono block you could do that too, with either balanced or unbalanced modules. Quad Differential module. A single power supply would require these two separate double wide quad differential modules to share the same power and because this the audio signal will have crosstalk like a stereo amplifier ? Why does mono audio require an isolated power supply ? Could a double wide quad differential module keep it's audio signal separate from it's neighbor ? Dual mono doesn't require a separate power supply, it's a feature. When a designer chooses to use a power supply for each channel (along with the amp channel circuitry) it is known as dual mono. And yes, reduced crosstalk would be an advantage of a dual mono design, but most audiophiles have been satisfied with the crosstalk performance of stereo amplifiers for decades. So I would say the crosstalk advantage of dual mono (and monoblock) designs, while real, is not of a consequence level to render them wholly superior. How much crosstalk a specific amp has will be something the designer will try to minimize (after all it is noise), but like any other spec there comes a point of diminishing returns or inaudibility. If for some reason you think crosstalk is the holy grail you should get monoblocks, I think with most well designed amps it's good enough, and other things are more important. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 8, 2016 18:01:51 GMT -5
You guys are speaking a foreign language. I have no idea what in the hell you are debating other than cramming 2 big huge amps into one steel container, but its fun to watch. Yeah, that's pretty much the question. The answer is "yes". But the other question...is "why bother?". It is FAR more impressive to have two, very large, very heavy boxes. Even better, they need to be integrated amps with separate volume controls that START at 11. Mark |
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Post by Axis on May 8, 2016 18:07:42 GMT -5
Quad Differential module. A single power supply would require these two separate double wide quad differential modules to share the same power and because this the audio signal will have crosstalk like a stereo amplifier ? Why does mono audio require an isolated power supply ? Could a double wide quad differential module keep it's audio signal separate from it's neighbor ? Dual mono doesn't require a separate power supply, it's a feature. When a designer chooses to use a power supply for each channel (along with the amp channel circuitry) it is known as dual mono. And yes, reduced crosstalk would be an advantage of a dual mono design, but most audiophiles have been satisfied with the crosstalk performance of stereo amplifiers for decades. So I would say the crosstalk advantage of dual mono (and monoblock) designs, while real, is not of a consequence level to render them wholly superior. How much crosstalk a specific amp has will be something the designer will try to minimize (after all it is noise), but like any other spec there comes a point of diminishing returns or inaudibility. If for some reason you think crosstalk is the holy grail you should get monoblocks, I think with most well designed amps it's good enough, and other things are more important. Do you think taking the XPA Gen 3 platform with its switching power supply along with the modules required to have two quad differential channels is a good ideal ? With the A/AB architecture of the XPA-1 that requires a massive toroidal transformer power supply and huge banks of capacitors with big heat sinks would not be feasible . Like Garbulky said, you would loose the class A with the Gen 3 architecture but still be quad differential. This is a question. I have no ideal how the sound quality would compare to the XPA-1 mono block. I have doubt that what Lonnie put into the XPA-1L, XPA-1 or XPR-1 mono blocks will be able to be transferred to a single amplifier chassis with two channels. I am thinking that this new design with it's switching power and new design of modules that along go with it could be a good recipe to have two quad differential balanced channels in the same chassis. This would be something new. The space and weight savings of these amps with better performance than previous X-series could be a game changer and this is just a thought experiment. |
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