cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 8, 2016 8:40:15 GMT -5
I think there's a new breed of music and movie enthusiasts that knows a lot more about the science of audio. They have left behind the audiophoolery of past decades which was solely marketing driven and had more to do with beliefs than reality. They will appreciate pre-pros that have only the functionality they need. They will also appreciate the modularity which allows them to match their amps to their speakers. Guess that's exactly the crowd Emotiva is targeting. The MC-700 seems to be a step backwards IF it works like the UMC-200 though. I still don't know and Emotiva is still not providing any answers although Dan and Keith are both reading this thread. # of people listening to audio through: TV speakers > soundbar > HTiB > receiver > separates Each of those drops could be an order of magnitude or more. Pre-outs are very niche. People with money to spend on separate amps generally aren't shopping for entry level receivers. Some of them spend that much on one HDMI cable  Onkyo and Denon make money on volume. If there was money to made on putting pre-outs on the low end receivers, we'd already have them per laws of supply and demand. -tm I know you are not in the US, but have you tried calling Emotiva to talk to someone technical who may be able to give you answers? If that is impractical due to cost or time, try e-mailing Keith directly with your questions. |
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Post by GTPlus on Dec 8, 2016 9:43:55 GMT -5
chaosrv You seem to know more about sales numbers than I do. I have no idea how many units Pioneer is selling vs. Emotiva. Anyway, Emotiva already seems to have all the puzzle pieces. They "just" would need to make the hardware design modular enough to support different versions like those mentioned above. You can find hardware in cheap electronics that isn't used at all. It's just there because the part is needed in a higher level product. For the reasons you've mentioned it's sometimes cheaper to underutilize hardware than to have different versions. LOL You seem to think electronics are on par with fast food. This isn't Burger King and you can't "have it your way". Emotiva, Pioneer or any other manufacturer would have to, at the minimum; determine feasible variants, research viability for each variant, design ALL of the variants, test ALL of the variants, order the production components from sub-suppliers for all variants, have sub-components built, stock and warehouse all of the components, then assemble and warehouse all of the different variants. That is not to mention all of the marketing, website instruction manuals etc... Each one of those steps take tons of man hours, would you willing to pay for all of that, as a business owner, to maybe sell a few of some variants but a large majority in one or two? Anyway, I have a question on the BasX. Thinking of replacing my struggling UMC-1 and one feature on it I use, that I don't see listed for the BasX, is 2nd zone. Wondering if it might have it in the menu to select the other surrounds as 2nd zone if I am running 5.1 If not, anyone have a creative way around this? |
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Post by urwi on Dec 8, 2016 10:22:20 GMT -5
I was talking about modularity which does NOT require a ton of hardware variants. Anyway, Emotiva seems to have developed the XMC in house so they already payed for most of development. They already do have a warehouse, they do have sub-suppliers, they do have in-house assembly, etc. They just trashed the Emersa. According to you the MC-700 should cost a ton more but it doesn't. What makes you so sure they would "maybe sell a few of some variants but a large majority in one or two"? Regarding second zone, that feature seems to be missing. Utilizing back surrounds as second zone outputs would require rewrite of the firmware and probably hardware changes. Not going to happen. The units are already in a shipping container according to Emotiva. chaosrv You seem to know more about sales numbers than I do. I have no idea how many units Pioneer is selling vs. Emotiva. Anyway, Emotiva already seems to have all the puzzle pieces. They "just" would need to make the hardware design modular enough to support different versions like those mentioned above. You can find hardware in cheap electronics that isn't used at all. It's just there because the part is needed in a higher level product. For the reasons you've mentioned it's sometimes cheaper to underutilize hardware than to have different versions. LOL You seem to think electronics are on par with fast food. This isn't Burger King and you can't -have it your way- Emotiva, Pioneer or any other manufacturer would have to, at the minimum; determine feasible variants, research viability for each variant, design ALL of the variants, test ALL of the variants, order the production components from sub-suppliers for all variants, have sub-components built, stock and warehouse all of the components, then assemble and warehouse all of the different variants. That is not to mention all of the marketing, website instruction manuals etc... Each one of those steps take tons of man hours, would you willing to pay for all of that, as a business owner, to maybe sell a few of some variants but a large majority in one or two? Anyway, I have a question on the BasX. Thinking of replacing my struggling UMC-1 and one feature on it I use, that I don't see listed for the BasX, is 2nd zone. Wondering if it might have it in the menu to select the other surrounds as 2nd zone if I am running 5.1 If not, anyone have a creative way around this? |
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Post by chaosrv on Dec 8, 2016 13:38:01 GMT -5
Modularity absolutely requires variants. That's the whole point, isn't it? If one processor has RCA outs and another has XLR, those are variants of the same product. Depending on how many features you want to be modular, the design work to make sure the base hardware has the room (for the parts & circuit paths), processing capacity, etc... and the firmware would need to support every single variant. Debugging & creating newer firmware is a tough enough task as it is, now you have to make sure it is rock solid on every possible configuration.
Let's for the sake of simplicity say there are 5 different options you can pick: RCA/XLR, DAC/No Dac, Headphone out/No Headphone out, etc... that's potentially 32 different possible iterations that need to be designed, tested & supported. That's a lot of man hours, money, & storage space. Yes, Emotiva has a warehouse but they have other products that fill the space as well.
I get you want what you want and don't want to pay more for what you don't. Should you be able to do that? Absolutely? Is it likely? Not very. The more options, the less buying power a company has per part/unit etc.. despite the fact they are actually buying more parts overall. Then supporting it for a number of years (years of production + warranty years)
I don't have numbers but it is just common sense. In most cases, I don't see how it can make economical sense for a business to support such a platform.
I suggest maybe finding a few engineers of varying fields, some investors, and start a kickstarter campaign or indigogo.
By the way, the Emersa line wasn't cancelled. It is being redesigned as it originally did not have atmos but people are clamoring for it now..even though many will likely not implement it in their homes but it is a "must have" feature. So Emotiva is redesigning it to include a feature enough people think they want but won't actually use. This is the reality of today. You can't please everyone but you try to please as many as you can, regardless if they are right or not.
As respects the details on the MC-700. Just pick up the phone and call Emotiva. I don't think you're going to get the answers you want on the forum. No one at Emotiva is obligated to answer your questions on a public forum just because you asked. Maybe they just don't know the answer yet.
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Post by urwi on Dec 8, 2016 14:21:31 GMT -5
That seems likely albeit a bit strange. Emotiva is actively selling a product but they don't know how it works? If they do know though, they should publish the specs in all available channels, especially when potential buyers pose those questions. It should considerably reduce the amount of support requests. Maybe they just don't know the answer yet. |
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 8, 2016 14:32:29 GMT -5
That seems likely albeit a bit strange. Emotiva is actively selling a product but they don't know how it works? If they do know though, they should publish the specs in all available channels, especially when potential buyers pose those questions. It should considerably reduce the amount of support requests. Maybe they just don't know the answer yet. They know how their product works. No question. Again, please call them or email Keith as has been stated here many times. You won't find the answers you want here especially with a brand new product. In fact, you may be able to help others when reporting back with your answers. |
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Post by chaosrv on Dec 8, 2016 15:14:09 GMT -5
Okay, perhaps instead of saying "Maybe they just don't know the answer yet." I should have said maybe those at Emotiva that frequently visit and participate in the forum do not know the answer yet. The recent issue about the HDR capability of the MC-700 is a perfect example.
As for publishing the specs in all available channels - that is asking for trouble. No manufacturer publishes all specs on a product. At least not on the primary product page. It is overkill.
Last time - if you want to know a piece of information about a product and it isn't listed on the website or in the manual, call Emotiva and be done with it already.
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 8, 2016 15:35:27 GMT -5
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Post by urwi on Dec 9, 2016 2:07:53 GMT -5
I have sent a PM to Keith with my questions.
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Post by darklogix on Dec 9, 2016 10:58:00 GMT -5
I have just a quick question about the XLR port on the MC-700 (And btw I'm planning to buy it regardless of the answer)
Is it fully balanced? IE like the L/R on the XMC-1 or faux balanced like C/SR/SL/BR/BL/LFE on the XMC-1?
My current plan is to order the A-700 first and later get the MC-700 since my current amp is only 2ch so I'm not even able to fully use my current pro/pre.
Thanks and have a nice day.
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Post by cwt on Dec 9, 2016 12:40:47 GMT -5
I have just a quick question about the XLR port on the MC-700 (And btw I'm planning to buy it regardless of the answer) Is it fully balanced? IE like the L/R on the XMC-1 or faux balanced like C/SR/SL/BR/BL/LFE on the XMC-1? My current plan is to order the A-700 first and later get the MC-700 since my current amp is only 2ch so I'm not even able to fully use my current pro/pre. Thanks and have a nice day. Its important to note darklogix that the l/r 2ch balanced on the the xmc1 is fully balanced input to output ie the pre amp circuitry is doubled [quite rare and not cheap to implement] . This doesn't mean that the other xmc1 outputs aren't balanced ; just that theres a conversion from single ended circuitry to balanced . The xlr's still have the common ground noise cancellation that true balanced outputs have The MC700 sub out is also fully balanced no doubt if you want to run a long xlr for the lfe ;as was the umc200 both balanced and unbalanced  |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Dec 9, 2016 12:59:54 GMT -5
OK - it's CLARIFYING time.  ALL of the balanced outputs and inputs on ALL of our equipment that has them are REAL BALANCED CONNECTIONS. (In a balanced connection, the two signal leads carry equal but out of phase signals, which allow any noise picked up by the cable to be cancelled out.) All of our outputs are real balanced outputs, with active signals on both lines, and all of our balanced inputs difference the two signals to cancel noise. The LF and RF outputs on the XMC-1 are generated by fully differential balanced DACs, and follow a balanced signal path ON THE WAY TO their balanced outputs. While the other channels are generated by high quality DACs operating in single-ended mode. And the fully differential balanced front channels have slightly better audio performance overall...... But all the balanced OUTPUTS on both are fully balanced, and will give you all the benefits of a BALANCED CONNECTION. (And, to be honest, with a SUBWOOFER output, where the frequency response is quite limited, but you might be running a long cable, the balanced CONNECTION is the important part. I have just a quick question about the XLR port on the MC-700 (And btw I'm planning to buy it regardless of the answer) Is it fully balanced? IE like the L/R on the XMC-1 or faux balanced like C/SR/SL/BR/BL/LFE on the XMC-1? My current plan is to order the A-700 first and later get the MC-700 since my current amp is only 2ch so I'm not even able to fully use my current pro/pre. Thanks and have a nice day. |
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 9, 2016 13:37:00 GMT -5
Wouldn't the incremental db adjustment be sufficient vs. worrying about programing in speaker distances? Coming from a two channel Luddite. 😀
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Post by darklogix on Dec 9, 2016 14:19:17 GMT -5
Another question, if using the PC USB input will the computer see all 7.1 channels? or like some do will the computer only see 2 channels and depend on something like prologic for the others?
Thanks again.
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 9, 2016 15:09:32 GMT -5
With the made in China MC-700 at $599 (the long term price) and the made in the US XMC-1 Gen 2 at $2499 (the long term price) that leaves a rather large gap in between them for another product. Atmos and DTSX have thrown a spanner in the works, their required processing power and output configuration makes any decent sounding processor capable of accomodating them far from inexpensive. In my view the concept of an XMC-1L was the most logical solution, using trickle down technology from the XMC-1. Which would provide for a product that would be appealing for those customer who have a UMC-1 or a UMC-200 and wish to upgrade. Video notwithstanding I'm not sure that the MC-700 is enough of an upgrade to attract that customer base. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. Not necessarily looking for more features, tick the boxes, has everything, but just seeking better sound at an affordable price.
In summary, I suspect that some are expecting/asking for a processor with features that place it half way between a UMC-200 and an XMC-1, whereas the MC-700 is an update/upgrade of the UMC-200 level. But at an even lower price than the UMC-200 was on its launch and that's amazing.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by jimmyjames121 on Dec 9, 2016 16:29:41 GMT -5
With the made in China MC-700 at $599 (the long term price) and the made in the US XMC-1 Gen 2 at $2499 (the long term price) that leaves a rather large gap in between them for another product. Atmos and DTSX have thrown a spanner in the works, their required processing power and output configuration makes any decent sounding processor capable of accomodating them far from inexpensive. In my view the concept of an XMC-1L was the most logical solution, using trickle down technology from the XMC-1. Which would provide for a product that would be appealing for those customer who have a UMC-1 or a UMC-200 and wish to upgrade. Video notwithstanding I'm not sure that the MC-700 is enough of an upgrade to attract that customer base. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. Not necessarily looking for more features, tick the boxes, has everything, but just seeking better sound at an affordable price. In summary, I suspect that some are expecting/asking for a processor with features that place it half way between a UMC-200 and an XMC-1, whereas the MC-700 is an update/upgrade of the UMC-200 level. But at an even lower price than the UMC-200 was on its launch and that's amazing. Cheers Gary I'm in this category you speak of, but recently acquired dual subwoofers and am wondering how this processor would do regarding in room subwoofer calibration for duals? Also, how much better sound quality would this offer over my Yamaha Aventage AVR? Thanks I'll hang up and listen 👍🏻 |
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Post by chaosrv on Dec 9, 2016 16:38:41 GMT -5
I believe Dan ran a poll not that long ago to gauge interest in such a "tweener" product but if memory serves there wasn't A LOT of takers. That also may be in part that the Emersa processor is still on the horizon, just being retooled at the moment. With the made in China MC-700 at $599 (the long term price) and the made in the US XMC-1 Gen 2 at $2499 (the long term price) that leaves a rather large gap in between them for another product. Atmos and DTSX have thrown a spanner in the works, their required processing power and output configuration makes any decent sounding processor capable of accomodating them far from inexpensive. In my view the concept of an XMC-1L was the most logical solution, using trickle down technology from the XMC-1. Which would provide for a product that would be appealing for those customer who have a UMC-1 or a UMC-200 and wish to upgrade. Video notwithstanding I'm not sure that the MC-700 is enough of an upgrade to attract that customer base. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. Not necessarily looking for more features, tick the boxes, has everything, but just seeking better sound at an affordable price. In summary, I suspect that some are expecting/asking for a processor with features that place it half way between a UMC-200 and an XMC-1, whereas the MC-700 is an update/upgrade of the UMC-200 level. But at an even lower price than the UMC-200 was on its launch and that's amazing. Cheers Gary |
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Post by urwi on Dec 9, 2016 17:20:12 GMT -5
What makes you think that "many" experience "power deficiencies in their AVR's"? You would need very inefficient speakers for this to be a real world problem. What makes you think a separate processor would generally provide "better sound"? Why would anybody need a device that is "more transparent" compared to something that is already audibly transparent? It's inaudible in both cases. The "more transparent" option just costs more. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. |
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Post by teaman on Dec 9, 2016 17:31:18 GMT -5
What makes you think that "many" experience "power deficiencies in their AVR's"? You would need very inefficient speakers for this to be a real world problem. What makes you think a separate processor would generally provide "better sound"? Why would anybody need a device that is "more transparent" compared to something that is already audibly transparent? It's inaudible in both cases. The "more transparent" option just costs more. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. I can only think of a couple AVR's that keep me smiling. The upgrade to separate processors and power amps makes a huge improvement in impact during movies and audio. Most AVR's are rated with only one or two channels driven and the short term peak power is usually woefully inadequate in my findings. Tim |
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 9, 2016 17:32:20 GMT -5
What makes you think that "many" experience "power deficiencies in their AVR's"? You would need very inefficient speakers for this to be a real world problem. What makes you think a separate processor would generally provide "better sound"? Why would anybody need a device that is "more transparent" compared to something that is already audibly transparent? It's inaudible in both cases. The "more transparent" option just costs more. That said I am totally confident that the MC-700 will be a big seller, to mostly first time processor buyers looking for better sound quality than their previous AVR's. Many I suspect will have already upgraded to separate power amps to overcome the power deficiencies in their AVR's so a separate processor is the next step. Avrs are usually underpowered unless their at least a solid real 100 watt amplifier. Even the difference between my 50 watt a100 and the 150watt a300 is night and day difference. No kidding. |
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