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Post by monkumonku on Dec 13, 2016 21:07:02 GMT -5
I am starting to think urwi is only here for entertainment. No matter how minuscule in variation it is when somebody replies, urwi goes in for the attack....hahaha  |
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Post by Jim on Dec 13, 2016 21:38:31 GMT -5
I agree with the above statement, but I would like to add the following just for clarification. A distorted (or clipped) signal in and of itself will not harm a speaker as long as the over all output power from the amplifier is within the thermal limits of the driver. As far as the driver is concerned its just a signal. Now having said that, the reason people think clipping can burn up a speaker is because of the following. When an amplifier clips, the output signal will become some form of a square wave depending on how much the amplifier is being over driven. When this occurs, there are two things that happen. First, there are harmonics generated at 1 octave intervals from the fundamental clipped frequency. These harmonics equate to additional power output. So there is an over increase in the output power that the voice coil has to deal with. Add to that the other issue which is the square wave itself. A normal unclipped sine wave gives a voice col plenty of time to cool down and only at peak power for a very short amount of time. A square wave on the other hand holds the voice coil at peak level for a much longer length of time. So the bottom line is this. The distortion itself means nothing. It is the increased output power from the amp coupled with the reduced cooling time will cause the thermal rise time of the voice coil to go up exponentially and this is what will burn up your speakers. Bottom line, clipping is not what kills a speaker, but it is the carrier of what kills a speaker. Always better to have more power then less in my humble opinion. Lonnie This explanation deserves to be in a FAQ. Nicely written. |
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Post by teaman on Dec 13, 2016 22:00:39 GMT -5
What fries speakers in the end is listening too loud, which also fries ears. Then the "listener" turns it up more. It's a mystery to me how killing your sensitive hearing qualifies one as an audiophile, "THX Standard" be damned. What Bill, can you speak louder? My hearing is fried from listening too loud....maybe all caps next time! Tim |
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Post by donovan on Dec 13, 2016 22:46:12 GMT -5
Based on my email to support at Emotiva today, it sounds like the MC-700 will not be upgradeable to Dolby Vision (DV) in the future. I started to question whether I should pull the trigger on this unit or wait awhile and see if DV is later incorporated. However, after doing research on HDR10 vs DV, it sounds like my future TV, the Sony 65" XBR 930D, can't even utilize the higher brightness and color ceilings that DV has. In other words, if this is the TV I keep for years, missing DV will not be a big deal. I'm guessing the better OLED's can actually utilize DV. Is my reasoning sound? Here is an interesting article on HDR formats: televisions.reviewed.com/features/dolby-says-the-hdr-format-war-doesnt-existOn a side note, how long will it take to get codes for the MC-700 for my Harmony remote? |
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Post by teaman on Dec 13, 2016 23:49:50 GMT -5
Donovan, if you are on the fence, they have the 30 day trial. Also, I see plenty of Emotiva gear sell for as much as they paid on Audiogon and Ebay.
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Post by yves on Dec 14, 2016 1:11:46 GMT -5
Speakers getting destroyed by weak amps clipping is a myth. Speakers either get destroyed by overexcursion (woofers) or by burned up voice coils (tweeters). Both the result of too much power when trying to drive a speaker beyond its mechanical or electrical limits. I agree with the above statement, but I would like to add the following just for clarification. A distorted (or clipped) signal in and of itself will not harm a speaker as long as the over all output power from the amplifier is within the thermal limits of the driver. As far as the driver is concerned its just a signal. Now having said that, the reason people think clipping can burn up a speaker is because of the following. When an amplifier clips, the output signal will become some form of a square wave depending on how much the amplifier is being over driven. When this occurs, there are two things that happen. First, there are harmonics generated at 1 octave intervals from the fundamental clipped frequency. These harmonics equate to additional power output. So there is an over increase in the output power that the voice coil has to deal with. Add to that the other issue which is the square wave itself. A normal unclipped sine wave gives a voice col plenty of time to cool down and only at peak power for a very short amount of time. A square wave on the other hand holds the voice coil at peak level for a much longer length of time. So the bottom line is this. The distortion itself means nothing. It is the increased output power from the amp coupled with the reduced cooling time will cause the thermal rise time of the voice coil to go up exponentially and this is what will burn up your speakers. Bottom line, clipping is not what kills a speaker, but it is the carrier of what kills a speaker. Always better to have more power then less in my humble opinion. Lonnie It easily gets far worse than that. If an amp starts to clip, it starts to lose control of the drivers because it no longer possesses the power reserve it requires to accurately damp them. This, then, generates a lot of distortion. On top of that, the large amount of distortion resulting from the fact the tweeter isn't designed to handle the spectral content it receives from the clipping amp at those high power output levels is causing the already clipping amp to lose even more control of the drivers. As the amp's damping continues to attempt to grab control of the heavily distorting tweeter, it continues to send MORE power to the tweeter... power which it DOESN'T HAVE. So instead of doing that which it is designed to do, which is to remedy the problem of uncontrolled tweeter deflections, the amp's damping now starts to become a major distortion source. The end result has the effect of an avalanche: what starts out as a hint of distortion that may be not very much audible quickly ramps up to a recipe for disaster if the person in charge of the volume control is unaware of what comes from turning it up further. |
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Post by urwi on Dec 14, 2016 1:26:53 GMT -5
Sure, let's "agree to dis-agree". There's plenty of data freely available that supports what I've said. Now I might be missing something here. Of course you have to set delay and level before optimizing the crossover region to the sub. What we hear at low frequencies is largely the room response. But there's still a fixed phase relationship between the subwoofer signal and the signal from the mains. So in no way is "what comes out of the processor irrelevant". Your experience with Dirac Live calibrated configurations should have shown you that at the crossover frequency there's a near perfect cancellation when applying a 180 degree out of phase 12dB filter via bass management. With all due respect, I disagree on pretty much ever level here. So rather than get into an argument, I guess the best thing here is simply to agree to dis-agree. Best regards, Lonnie |
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Post by urwi on Dec 14, 2016 1:38:35 GMT -5
The only irresponsible thing is you quoting me out of context. Please go back and reread my original post and you'll notice that there's not much to disagree with. Again, if there's a need to discuss amps further -there obviously is- then open a new thread. This one is about the MC-700. A very irresponsible statement |
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Post by urwi on Dec 14, 2016 1:55:28 GMT -5
"Dangerous" is people reading my statements out of context - or maybe I didn't explain myself too well. Honestly I'm not here to educate anybody or try to come off as an expert. I do try to keep an open mind and the one thing I've learned is that old audiophile myths are still going strong around here. What I wanted to learn though is one or two things about the MC-700 - I still do  It is usually the tweeter that will fail when the amplifier goes into clipping. This is because the squared off wave form of a clipped signal has a spectrum of high frequency components, even if the fundamental waveform is a low frequency, that may overwhelm the thermal capacity of the tiny and more vulnerable tweeter. Also there is no way a clipped wave form delivers more power than the unclipped waveform. The area under the clipped waveform is less than the unclipped, therefore the V square / Z or the I square x Z integrated power will also be less. it's just more energy is directed toward the tweeter via the speakers crossover filter under clipping. You win the test! This is exactly the mechanism that causes small amplifiers, when driven into clipping to destroy tweeters. Quickly! Urwi knows just enough to be dangerous. As a client Urwi, I respect you and appreciate your involvement. However do not pass yourself off as an expert. Your knowledge has too many holes in it. Many of your claims here are easily refuted. If you care to open your mind you can learn a lot from the people here. Now, back to the game! |
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Post by cwt on Dec 14, 2016 2:08:39 GMT -5
Based on my email to support at Emotiva today, it sounds like the MC-700 will not be upgradeable to Dolby Vision (DV) in the future. I started to question whether I should pull the trigger on this unit or wait awhile and see if DV is later incorporated. However, after doing research on HDR10 vs DV, it sounds like my future TV, the Sony 65" XBR 930D, can't even utilize the higher brightness and color ceilings that DV has. In other words, if this is the TV I keep for years, missing DV will not be a big deal. I'm guessing the better OLED's can actually utilize DV. Is my reasoning sound? There are other brands that can handle DV Donovan ; and not just oleds but lcd's too like vizio and lg's lcd's and phillips [ if available in the U.S ?] If your happy with the sony though the mc700 has the required hdmi2.0a passthrough needed for HDR10 . What did they say exactly about hdmi ? its been mentioned that the mc700 is modular like the xmc1 which implies a possible solution when HDR settles and DV turns up in 2017.. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 14, 2016 6:14:11 GMT -5
The only irresponsible thing is [snip] my original post. [snip] You'll notice that there's [snip] much to disagree with. Again, i [need] to [snip] open a new thread. This one is about the MC-700. |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2016 6:43:00 GMT -5
Is this the right thread for this?
Mark
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Post by urwi on Dec 14, 2016 9:22:27 GMT -5
Sigh. OPEN A NEW THREAD. Before you do, you might want to read this: billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1886www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htmThen compare what I and others have said. You're obviously misreading my posts on the topic. If it helps, you're not the only one... The only irresponsible thing is [snip] my original post. [snip] You'll notice that there's [snip] much to disagree with. Again, i [need] to [snip] open a new thread. This one is about the MC-700. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 14, 2016 9:35:02 GMT -5
Urwi,I think Dan has graciously asked you to drop it.
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Post by creimes on Dec 14, 2016 9:43:14 GMT -5
Talk about overthinking your system, open your disc tray and throw a movie or CD in and just enjoy it, urwi you are bringing this whole enjoyment of listening to music or watching a movie to an almost depressing state, I almost feel sorry for you as it seems you can't just sit down and enjoy the sound.
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Post by urwi on Dec 14, 2016 10:08:41 GMT -5
Sigh. I know everybody likes a bit of drama but there's no reason to get personal. Constantly. Repeatedly. Exclusively. This thread is about the MC-700, not me. Could we please stay on topic? Pretty pretty please?
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 14, 2016 10:42:05 GMT -5
Sure, let's "agree to dis-agree". There's plenty of data freely available that supports what I've said. With all due respect, I disagree on pretty much ever level here. So rather than get into an argument, I guess the best thing here is simply to agree to dis-agree. Best regards, Lonnie If you agree to disagree then why do you keep disagreeing? That must mean you disagree that you agree to disagree so you agree to continue disagreeing even though you agreed to agree to disagree but apparently you disagree with that.  |
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 14, 2016 12:33:52 GMT -5
"Dangerous" is people reading my statements out of context - or maybe I didn't explain myself too well. Honestly I'm not here to educate anybody or try to come off as an expert. I do try to keep an open mind and the one thing I've learned is that old audiophile myths are still going strong around here. What I wanted to learn though is one or two things about the MC-700 - I still do You win the test! This is exactly the mechanism that causes small amplifiers, when driven into clipping to destroy tweeters. Quickly! Urwi knows just enough to be dangerous. As a client Urwi, I respect you and appreciate your involvement. However do not pass yourself off as an expert. Your knowledge has too many holes in it. Many of your claims here are easily refuted. If you care to open your mind you can learn a lot from the people here. Now, back to the game! There are no myths just lots of different users experiences. the only myth there is the belief that most of the japanese manufacturers selling 7 channel receivers can supply the power needed for quality surround sound. the minute they went from five channel to 7+ channels in a receiver it was the beginning of the end. most of the people around here have 20+ years of audio experience so your getting a premium education for free. The japanese do sell quality equipment it just starts to be interesting around $800+ dollars and goes up from there. you need to make sure that your not comparing apples to oranges in different quality realms. The only reason why we keep bringing up power is that you keep denying that it doesnt make a difference and a receiver should do the job so keep going around in a circle. you dont need a 300 watt amplifier to get good sound but you do need quality power delivered on a consistent basis that a cheap $400 receiver cant deliver unless your powering small and cheap speakers. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 14, 2016 17:14:14 GMT -5
You've made it clear that you pretty much disagree with everyone - including the CEO and Lonnie. And that you disagree with how some components of the MC-700 are implemented. And you disagree on some fundamental issues. Shall I open a new thread about that? Unless you're seriously considering the MC-700, you might want to think about where you're going..... all the drama seems to be exaggerated "you implemented something wrong and I don't like it..... ". |
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Post by donovan on Dec 14, 2016 21:53:43 GMT -5
Donovan, if you are on the fence, they have the 30 day trial. Also, I see plenty of Emotiva gear sell for as much as they paid on Audiogon and Ebay. Thanks. Yea, I've decided to go ahead and buy them because I think I'll be just fine with HDR10. One question, if HDR10 enables "dynamic metadata", will the MC-700 be able to process this? |
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