novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Aug 16, 2016 22:02:10 GMT -5
WHAT?!?!?!? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!! Mark See what can happen ! This should be a lesson to all you young kids with powerful gear and speakers. Oh and ! If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it too? It’s all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out. You’d forget your head if it wasn’t screwed on. Elbows off the table. Don't talk with your mouth full. Clean up your room, it looks like a tornado hit. Do you think I was born yesterday? Is that too much to ask? Why? Because I said so, that's why! Money doesn’t grow on trees! And this!
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Aug 16, 2016 22:03:45 GMT -5
Wanted, One Emotiva XPR-1 Not really,see prior post.
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Post by khurram on Aug 16, 2016 22:31:21 GMT -5
This is happening to me when I'm using the receiver with my ELAC UB5 (gasp I mentioned ELAC on the Emotiva forum), the receiver on loud volume clips during scenes like the ripples in glass scene in Jurassic Park. It does fine overall though. I can't add an amplifier because the receiver doesn't have pre-outs. The only reasonable option I can think of is to sell this receiver in favour of TA-100 and use optical out from the TV.
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 16, 2016 22:34:29 GMT -5
This is happening to me when I'm using the receiver with my ELAC UB5 (gasp I mentioned ELAC on the Emotiva forum), the receiver on loud volume clips during scenes like the ripples in glass scene in Jurassic Park. It does fine overall though. I can't add an amplifier because the receiver doesn't have pre-outs. The only reasonable option I can think of is to sell this receiver in favour of TA-100 and use optical out from the TV. Be careful with clipping as you can damage the speakers really fast
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Post by khurram on Aug 16, 2016 22:50:01 GMT -5
I'll say this, I'm a newb but I understand technology very well and get up to speed very quickly. What does clipping sound like? Does the woofer make flapping noises in times of stress at loud volumes? Mine does and I assumed that this was caused by amplifier running out of power hence clipping. It's also shut itself off on the MI: Ghost Protocol scene where their car is attacked during mission briefing.
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Post by teaman on Aug 16, 2016 23:10:50 GMT -5
Khurram, I have blown 200 watt speakers with a 35 wpc receiver. Usually the first thing that happens is the speaker tweeter blows, secondly the woofer will sound muffled. I don't suggest you....or anyone try cranking the amp/receiver to see how loud it will go. It usually doesn't end well for the speakers, and sometimes for the amp. When the amp clips sometimes it will simply blow a fuse, a relay or a clipping light will activate and the sound will drop off. Other times though the amp will just stop outputting sound and it will die completely to the point that the clipping light stays on and you have to rebuild the circuit board, transformer or what ever. Not a good idea unless you have old crap gear and just want to see things break.
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Post by khurram on Aug 16, 2016 23:24:53 GMT -5
So how does one get to reference level without blowing their speakers up? I like loud enough to be able to feel the vibration on someone with a heavier voice and hear whispers.
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Post by Axis on Aug 16, 2016 23:31:40 GMT -5
So how does one get to reference level without blowing their speakers up? I like loud enough to be able to feel the vibration on someone with a heavier voice and hear whispers. First you must define reference level grasshopper. Prepare to blow your mind first, then your speakers.
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Post by teaman on Aug 16, 2016 23:34:03 GMT -5
So how does one get to reference level without blowing their speakers up? I like loud enough to be able to feel the vibration on someone with a heavier voice and hear whispers. Number one, I would not expect the Elacs to get you there. I highly doubt three five inch woofers are going to hit reference levels without blowing the aluminum cones straight out. Secondly, the Yamaha 673 will never take you there, that receiver will run out of gas well before hitting 90 db or anywhere near with clean power. Heck, my Yamaha RX-V2700 was rated at 130 wpc and it crackled about halfway up the volume dial. Quality in = Quality out!.
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Post by khurram on Aug 16, 2016 23:34:24 GMT -5
So how does one get to reference level without blowing their speakers up? I like loud enough to be able to feel the vibration on someone with a heavier voice and hear whispers. First you must define reference level grasshopper. Prepare to blow your mind first, then your speakers. Lol. I realize that reference level varies. So back to my original problem, if the woofer in a speaker makes flapping noises as if someone has put a piece of cloth in front of it, is tgat clipping?
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Post by Axis on Aug 16, 2016 23:42:11 GMT -5
First you must define reference level grasshopper. Prepare to blow your mind first, then your speakers. Lol. I realize that reference level varies. So back to my original problem, if the woofer in a speaker makes flapping noises as if someone has put a piece of cloth in front of it, is tgat clipping? Keep asking these questions and they will be answered. I am busy rocking out but just know that your woofers should not be making flapping noises. If they go beyond making a proper low frequency sound then you that is not good. Hang around here and read what others are doing. That's how you learn. Cheers Mike
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 0:22:41 GMT -5
Very nice setup. I noticed that amongst these new speakers, the C1 center and T1 towers are rated at 4 ohms. I'm communicating with Emotiva to ensure that the my towers (arriving tomorrow) will work fine with my Yamaha V673 receiver. Can you turn off your subwoofer and see how loud they can go? Thanks. Please understand no offense intended here, just honest feedback. Your Yamaha V673 is an entry level receiver and regardless of the printed specs the power is quite low, probably in the range of an actual 50 watts per channel (with all channels operating at 0.1% THD). Up to moderate volume levels this should be OK. The problem is most AVR receivers and especially the entry level ones are not very stable into 4 ohms. Yamaha does not rate this Receiver into 4 ohms or even 6 ohms (ignore their specs at 0.9% and 10% THD .... 0.9% is near clipping and 10% is awful.) This will be your problem with the Emo speakers. Be careful and do not drive them too loud. At loud levels especially with 5 or 7 speakers of 4 ohms you will place a heavy stress on the V673 amp. At high volume levels with dynamic sources like multi-channel music or multi-channel movies/Blu-Ray there is a good chance the amp will overheat and/or shut down or you will hear audible distortion. Your amp might frequently with dynamic/loud sources be into significant distortion (speakers start to sound irritating) which will not be good for your speakers. Unfortunately the V673 does not have pre outs for an external amp. This AVR is simply not suitable for 4 ohms speakers regardless what a local dealer selling this receiver might claim. Sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear. I would try to be patient and drive your new speakers to modest volume levels with the V673 and meantime look to a much stronger separate amp that is strong into 4 ohms. You would want to match it with a separate home theater preamp/surround processor or possibly with a used higher priced AVR receiver (with amp outputs.....in this case you do not use but instead bypass the amp in the receiver). Very important. If you have a good subwoofer, set your 5 or 7 speakers to "small" (not full range ,including the T1) and crossover to the sub at about 70-80Hz. In other words the sub will handle all frequencies from 70-80Hz and down and the other speakers will handle from 80Hz and up. While you still have the V673 this will also take some of the amp stress to drive the low bass frequencies (low bass tones take more amp power). The amp in the sub will take care of the lower frequencies. Hope this helps.
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Post by khurram on Aug 17, 2016 2:28:16 GMT -5
Very nice setup. I noticed that amongst these new speakers, the C1 center and T1 towers are rated at 4 ohms. I'm communicating with Emotiva to ensure that the my towers (arriving tomorrow) will work fine with my Yamaha V673 receiver. Can you turn off your subwoofer and see how loud they can go? Thanks. Please understand no offense intended here, just honest feedback. Your Yamaha V673 is an entry level receiver and regardless of the printed specs the power is quite low, probably in the range of an actual 50 watts per channel (with all channels operating at 0.1% THD). Up to moderate volume levels this should be OK. The problem is most AVR receivers and especially the entry level ones are not very stable into 4 ohms. Yamaha does not rate this Receiver into 4 ohms or even 6 ohms (ignore their specs at 0.9% and 10% THD .... 0.9% is near clipping and 10% is awful.) This will be your problem with the Emo speakers. Be careful and do not drive them too loud. At loud levels especially with 5 or 7 speakers of 4 ohms you will place a heavy stress on the V673 amp. At high volume levels with dynamic sources like multi-channel music or multi-channel movies/Blu-Ray there is a good chance the amp will overheat and/or shut down or you will hear audible distortion. Your amp might frequently with dynamic/loud sources be into significant distortion (speakers start to sound irritating) which will not be good for your speakers. Unfortunately the V673 does not have pre outs for an external amp. This AVR is simply not suitable for 4 ohms speakers regardless what a local dealer selling this receiver might claim. Sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear. I would try to be patient and drive your new speakers to modest volume levels with the V673 and meantime look to a much stronger separate amp that is strong into 4 ohms. You would want to match it with a separate home theater preamp/surround processor or possibly with a used higher priced AVR receiver (with amp outputs.....in this case you do not use but instead bypass the amp in the receiver). Very important. If you have a good subwoofer, set your 5 or 7 speakers to "small" (not full range ,including the T1) and crossover to the sub at about 70-80Hz. In other words the sub will handle all frequencies from 70-80Hz and down and the other speakers will handle from 80Hz and up. While you still have the V673 this will also take some of the amp stress to drive the low bass frequencies (low bass tones take more amp power). The amp in the sub will take care of the lower frequencies. Hope this helps. No offense taken. I have a small 100W subwoofer which I haven't plugged in yet. As much as I like my ELACs, they're bookshelves and I don't like bookshelves on the stands I got, they seem like a big bodybuilder with tiny legs You're right about the receiver being entry level but I got it used so not much money spent there. I will upgrade to a receiver with pre-outs down the road as well as a separate amp like the new Emotiva A-500 but the volume on this receiver is good enough and I live in an apartment with a paranoid better half.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 2:59:01 GMT -5
No offense taken. I have a small 100W subwoofer which I haven't plugged in yet. As much as I like my ELACs, they're bookshelves and I don't like bookshelves on the stands I got, they seem like a big bodybuilder with tiny legs You're right about the receiver being entry level but I got it used so not much money spent there. I will upgrade to a receiver with pre-outs down the road as well as a separate amp like the new Emotiva A-500 but the volume on this receiver is good enough and I live in an apartment with a paranoid better half.Get rid of her! ( )
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Post by khurram on Aug 17, 2016 3:34:22 GMT -5
No offense taken. I have a small 100W subwoofer which I haven't plugged in yet. As much as I like my ELACs, they're bookshelves and I don't like bookshelves on the stands I got, they seem like a big bodybuilder with tiny legs You're right about the receiver being entry level but I got it used so not much money spent there. I will upgrade to a receiver with pre-outs down the road as well as a separate amp like the new Emotiva A-500 but the volume on this receiver is good enough and I live in an apartment with a paranoid better half.Get rid of her! ( ) Can't, won't etc etc etc ☺
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,762
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Post by klinemj on Aug 17, 2016 5:14:01 GMT -5
I'll say this, I'm a newb but I understand technology very well and get up to speed very quickly. What does clipping sound like? Does the woofer make flapping noises in times of stress at loud volumes? Mine does and I assumed that this was caused by amplifier running out of power hence clipping. It's also shut itself off on the MI: Ghost Protocol scene where their car is attacked during mission briefing. Woofers flapping is not good. They will move in and out but not so far that they are "flapping". Clipping or not, it appears you are over-driving them. With clipping, the upper end should sound a bit distorted, but some people mistake that for sounds inherent in the music. If you are getting into clipping, your tweeters will overheat and blow. Mark
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Post by copperpipe on Aug 17, 2016 7:42:23 GMT -5
First you must define reference level grasshopper. Prepare to blow your mind first, then your speakers. So back to my original problem, if the woofer in a speaker makes flapping noises as if someone has put a piece of cloth in front of it, is tgat clipping? Think about what you just asked Is that sound part of the music? No, so I would suggest turning the volume down until your woofers stop flapping, they're not birds ANY sound that is not part of the music or sound track in a movie is bad; "clipping", "distortion", doesn't matter what you call it, bad things are happening.
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 17, 2016 8:08:30 GMT -5
I'll say this, I'm a newb but I understand technology very well and get up to speed very quickly. What does clipping sound like? Does the woofer make flapping noises in times of stress at loud volumes? Mine does and I assumed that this was caused by amplifier running out of power hence clipping. It's also shut itself off on the MI: Ghost Protocol scene where their car is attacked during mission briefing. Sound is comprised of a complex sine wave where there is rise and fall in amplitude. When an amplifier clips, it means the input signal is higher in amplitude than the amplifiers rail voltages so as the amplifier tries to reproduce this it will square off at the top and bottom of the wave forms. Basically sending DC into the voice coils. Also when this happens there is a series of harmonics generated at 1 octave intervals starting with the fundamental frequency that caused the clip. These harmonics will cause an increase in output power across the bandwidth of the amplifier. How this affects your speakers is pretty straightforward. When listening to un-clipped music a gradually rising and falling sine wave allows time for the voice coil to heat and cool. When the amplifier clips and sends a square wave to the speaker the flat line coupled with the additional power increase from the harmonics don't allow time for cooling. So the thermal rise time of the voice coil goes up exponentially. If the speaker can't dissipate this heat it will super heat the voice coil and burn it out. Since tweeters usually have the smallest gauge wire in the voice coils, they are usually the first to go. Now lets take a quick look at what happens if you have an amplifier with more power then what the speaker can handle. For example a 1000 watt amp on a 100 watt speaker. In this scenario as the amplitude from the amplifier increases the exclusion or throw from the driver will increase to match up to the point where you reach the limit of the driver itself. This is set by the depth of the pole piece, the available stretch of the spider and the surround. If the sine wave from the amplifier is large enough to push the driver beyond its limit, you are not likely to damage the voice coil because it is still in that heating/cooling phase. But what will happen is the voice coil could slap the bottom of the pole piece (its that is the limiting factor) or the spider and or surround could deform. In all cases the speaker will make a bad sound but it is unlikely to cause any permanent damage. Its just the speakers way of telling you to turn it down. So to directly answer your question. Well there really isn't a definitive answer to it because every driver and amplifier is different. So there is not a specific sound that is made when an amplifier clips vs. a speaker being over thrown. My suggestion is to just listen and enjoy and if something doesn't sound right, turn it down because there is a reason it doesn't sound right. Hope this helps. Lonnie
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Post by khurram on Aug 17, 2016 15:15:39 GMT -5
Thank you for the detailed explanation. What is Emotiva's recommendation to power these towers from their own portfolio?
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 17, 2016 16:06:26 GMT -5
Thank you for the detailed explanation. What is Emotiva's recommendation to power these towers from their own portfolio? More is always better! I'm old school, I believe you can't have to much power. If it were me, I would go with the new Gen 3 XPA amps. Lonnie
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