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Post by djoel on Sept 24, 2016 16:34:31 GMT -5
Give me a slight recess knob and I'm a happy man.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 24, 2016 17:07:45 GMT -5
I voted buttons because I'm not waiting additional time or paying extra for products to have knobs engineered that I don't use anyway. The remote is what I use and it has buttons, it's that simple. Plus it's very hard to get light dims over the LED ring around the knob. There is no additional time or cost in the design phase, nor really in the implementation. Couple cents extra? Dollar? And we never mentioned anything about light dimming LED's either - you're really grasping at straws here. And none of that has anything to do with the question. The question is: you have EMO-DEVICE#1 with buttons, and identical EMO-DEVICE#2 except with a glorious volume knob. They are the same cost. What would you purchase? The mini-x has volume knobs by the way. If they can manage to keep the horrendous cost of volume knobs down suitably to offer this device at rock bottom pricing, then I have faith they can manage do the same in a higher end unit, such as a $1000 processor  Did you miss Nick's post Quick notes: maseline98 , We have a mock up with the dial as well. The reason why we have gone with the buttons in this concept is: 1. This is based heavily off the existing Emersa boards so the existing code and front panel is built for buttons instead of a rotary knob 2. We have to redo the encoder for the knob which adds more time and cost 3. The knob also adds an extra illumination ring which will raise cost as well. With the same buttons on the right side, we are using the existing part we are using on the quadrant on the left which will help keep cost low. 4. The volume is controlled usually through a remote so it makes the need of the dial less important since form follows function. Also, no need for a mic input on the front of the unit since Dirac connects to your computer and the files are downloaded to your pre/pro via the network. wrinklemash This would have to be 4 HDMI in 2 HDMI out since that is what the Emersa uses and is already programmed and ready to go...hence keeping the cost down. We think that $999 is the key price point for this product to be successful. Simply put, they have existing boards (with buttons) so to redesign (with a knob) would cost more, in both time any money. That means more cost and a delayed release. Note the mention of "illuminating ring", as I mentioned it's very hard to get a light dim around them, I've tried on the USP-1. Seems like I'm not the only one who thinks that the remote control controls the volume, I like Nick's terminology "form follows function". I don't know about others but I get the impression that Emotiva is fully committed on engineering resources and the XMC-1L (in the spec they suggest) is a speedy, cost effective solution to the current gap in the product line that also will sound fantastic with its XMC-1 based architecture. A knob, there really isn't a feature I could care less about. Cheers Gary |
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Post by yves on Sept 24, 2016 19:21:37 GMT -5
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Post by copperpipe on Sept 24, 2016 19:37:40 GMT -5
There is no additional time or cost in the design phase, nor really in the implementation. Couple cents extra? Dollar? And we never mentioned anything about light dimming LED's either - you're really grasping at straws here. And none of that has anything to do with the question. The question is: you have EMO-DEVICE#1 with buttons, and identical EMO-DEVICE#2 except with a glorious volume knob. They are the same cost. What would you purchase? The mini-x has volume knobs by the way. If they can manage to keep the horrendous cost of volume knobs down suitably to offer this device at rock bottom pricing, then I have faith they can manage do the same in a higher end unit, such as a $1000 processor Did you miss Nick's post Quick notes: maseline98 , We have a mock up with the dial as well. The reason why we have gone with the buttons in this concept is: 1. This is based heavily off the existing Emersa boards so the existing code and front panel is built for buttons instead of a rotary knob 2. We have to redo the encoder for the knob which adds more time and cost 3. The knob also adds an extra illumination ring which will raise cost as well. With the same buttons on the right side, we are using the existing part we are using on the quadrant on the left which will help keep cost low. 4. The volume is controlled usually through a remote so it makes the need of the dial less important since form follows function. Also, no need for a mic input on the front of the unit since Dirac connects to your computer and the files are downloaded to your pre/pro via the network. wrinklemash This would have to be 4 HDMI in 2 HDMI out since that is what the Emersa uses and is already programmed and ready to go...hence keeping the cost down. We think that $999 is the key price point for this product to be successful. Simply put, they have existing boards (with buttons) so to redesign (with a knob) would cost more, in both time any money. That means more cost and a delayed release. Note the mention of "illuminating ring", as I mentioned it's very hard to get a light dim around them, I've tried on the USP-1. Seems like I'm not the only one who thinks that the remote control controls the volume, I like Nick's terminology "form follows function". I don't know about others but I get the impression that Emotiva is fully committed on engineering resources and the XMC-1L (in the spec they suggest) is a speedy, cost effective solution to the current gap in the product line that also will sound fantastic with its XMC-1 based architecture. A knob, there really isn't a feature I could care less about. Cheers Gary That quote from Nick doesn't apply here in this thread. This thread is a general question - do you prefer volume knobs or buttons? Obviously if a design can be reused for a second model, then it's cheaper to use as much of it as possible. But still. The cost of a slight re-design should be weighed against the cost of lost sales. Some of us will pass on devices if they skimp on the hardware (like I did with UMC). Speaking in general, I like a well designed product, and I might not like to purchase something that "feels rushed" just to save on some shared platform costs.  Consider the placement of that product in the entire lineup - if other devices in that series come with knobs... Buttons might make more sense in the Emeresa line. They make less sense in the BasX or X line. Just one guys opinion. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 25, 2016 5:02:25 GMT -5
The UMC-200 has volume buttons not a volume knob and it's a product in the Ultra series line, which is the predecessor/equivalent of the BasX line. The X series line is a more appropriate level for volume knobs in my opinion, hence XMC-1 and XSP-1 have them. Of course there is an exception to every rule, the UMC-1 had a volume knob.
My quote from Nick was simply an example of the cost (in monetary terms as well as engineering time consumed) in implementing something which is alien to the range of products it is intended to fit into. Obviously I have no problem with volume knobs on products of an appropriates level.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by hosko on Sept 25, 2016 7:27:00 GMT -5
Think about how obvious it is to use a AV knob, we all know it - standard use is if you keep turning you will go back to where you started, or for volume clockwise equals more volume. Buttons are often configured where one must press a different button to undo the action of a previous button which can easily confuse people not familiar with all the buttons. Knobs (versus buttons) are easier and a left knob to change inputs is HUGELY appreciated by visitors/ people who are easily confused by AV remotes. The left knob is just plain intuitive, especially on devices where unused inputs can be hidden.  Sounds like you need a new remote, something that gets everything going with one press. |
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Post by vneal on Sept 25, 2016 8:28:21 GMT -5
No I need knobs. Don't like remotes. I must be old school. I like meters too
Glancing at my system the only two items that haves are my McIntosh amp, Furman conditioner and my Schiit headphone amp
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 25, 2016 10:29:55 GMT -5
Did you miss Nick's post Simply put, they have existing boards (with buttons) so to redesign (with a knob) would cost more, in both time any money. That means more cost and a delayed release. Note the mention of "illuminating ring", as I mentioned it's very hard to get a light dim around them, I've tried on the USP-1. Seems like I'm not the only one who thinks that the remote control controls the volume, I like Nick's terminology "form follows function". I don't know about others but I get the impression that Emotiva is fully committed on engineering resources and the XMC-1L (in the spec they suggest) is a speedy, cost effective solution to the current gap in the product line that also will sound fantastic with its XMC-1 based architecture. A knob, there really isn't a feature I could care less about. Cheers Gary That quote from Nick doesn't apply here in this thread. This thread is a general question - do you prefer volume knobs or buttons? Obviously if a design can be reused for a second model, then it's cheaper to use as much of it as possible. But still. The cost of a slight re-design should be weighed against the cost of lost sales. Some of us will pass on devices if they skimp on the hardware (like I did with UMC). Speaking in general, I like a well designed product, and I might not like to purchase something that "feels rushed" just to save on some shared platform costs. Consider the placement of that product in the entire lineup - if other devices in that series come with knobs... Buttons might make more sense in the Emeresa line. They make less sense in the BasX or X line. Just one guys opinion. While you're right that this is the basic poll question, it was motivated by the discussion in the XMC-1L thread that Big Dan started. I voted 'I don't care' because I use a remote all of the time and only open my cabinet doors to put in a Blu-ray or play an LP. Really though I do care, even though I have an XMC-1, I find the XMC-1L appealing and it almost meets my needs. If we accept Emotiva's project requirements that the end product sell for a maximum of $999, then we know there will be trade offs. I would much rather have a Zone output than a volume knob, and if we nickel and dime the project with 'deal breakers' then it won't meet the price goal and probably won't sell as well. You would be able to control the volume with buttons or the remote, I would not be able to drive my Zone amp (this is just an example of trade offs and not meant to derail this thread). Though I certainly don't mind paying for the volume 'knob' on my XMC-1 (and rather like it), I'm solidly with Gary Cook that at this level we have to accept design requirements that may not meet everyone's preference. The product needs to do the things you require of it, and it needs to do them at a level of performance that you find acceptable (and where entertainment is involved 'enjoyable'). This post probably belongs in the XMC-1L thread but it struck me as similar to Bonzo 's post/poll asking about RCA/XLR preferences, your comment piqued my interest. These are not 'price is no object' products and I'm not willing to give up features I need for convenience I might like. Apologies to the OP for digressing. |
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Post by GTPlus on Sept 26, 2016 7:37:37 GMT -5
The mini-x has volume knobs by the way. If they can manage to keep the horrendous cost of volume knobs down suitably to offer this device at rock bottom pricing, then I have faith they can manage do the same in a higher end unit, such as a $1000 processor The mini-x example is why I voted don't care. If the knob sacrifices normal functionality then don't do it. The knob is the only thing wrong/disappointing about my Mini-x. Because not having remote capabilities limits it's use. Probably why it later morphed into the Fusion Flex without the knob. |
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Post by copperpipe on Sept 26, 2016 8:19:52 GMT -5
The mini-x has volume knobs by the way. If they can manage to keep the horrendous cost of volume knobs down suitably to offer this device at rock bottom pricing, then I have faith they can manage do the same in a higher end unit, such as a $1000 processor The mini-x example is why I voted don't care. If the knob sacrifices normal functionality then don't do it. The knob is the only thing wrong/disappointing about my Mini-x. Because not having remote capabilities limits it's use. Probably why it later morphed into the Fusion Flex without the knob. Nope, the mini-x didn't morph into the fusion flex; that is/was a different product. The mini-x replacement was just announced on this forum few days ago, don't know much about it other than that. Anyway - take a look at the various products on the site. XMC, XSP, PT-100, TA-100, they all manage to incorporate a proper volume control just fine. I'm assuming they all come with remotes though I didn't check. The X series is a PREMIUM product line. You don't expect a plastic dash in a BMW or Mercedes just to save a few peso's for another cup holder or whatever. The X series is not necessarily about offering the most features. Even the XMC-1 doesn't have all the bells and whistles. Instead, the features that ARE there are of very high quality. That's the difference here. And I would argue the same for the "lesser" BasX line. It may not be as premium as the X series, but it's still focused on adding high quality features, not more features at the expense of quality. |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 26, 2016 8:24:41 GMT -5
Well, I've seen Emotiva make changes to their equipment for a lot less. But this poll is off the charts. 96% prefer knobs over buttons. 78% prefer knobs over not caring. In total its 76% who prefer knobs, 21% who don't care, and 3% who prefer buttons. This is a no brainer. Unless Emotiva is going for a 1U (or maybe 2U) tall unit where space may not allow it, any future device that requires volume control should have a knob for it, not buttons.
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 26, 2016 9:14:01 GMT -5
2 knobs, one for source selector and a second for volume - it's a layout everyone understands. I'd like to add that I think there is another great place for a knob application, but no one ever does it. That's on a disc player. Instead of having up down buttons, there should be a large knob. That way if you want track 17 on a CD, you don't have to push the up button 17 times, you just spin the "soft click" knob until 17 then push it in to start the playing. Very quick, easy, and super simple. I also like direct access buttons (1-20+), but that can make the front of a unit look a bit cluttered. A knob would be almost as easy, and look a lot nicer at the same time. |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 26, 2016 10:25:23 GMT -5
2 knobs, one for source selector and a second for volume - it's a layout everyone understands. I'd like to add that I think there is another great place for a knob application, but no one ever does it. That's on a disc player. Instead of having up down buttons, there should be a large knob. That way if you want track 17 on a CD, you don't have to push the up button 17 times, you just spin the "soft click" knob until 17 then push it in to start the playing. Very quick, easy, and super simple. I also like direct access buttons (1-20+), but that can make the front of a unit look a bit cluttered. A knob would be almost as easy, and look a lot nicer at the same time. The DC-1 has two knobs that work in this very similar fashion. Works just fine imo. When I teach, I use this feature a lot. I started out not liking the DC-1 remote and knobs but ended up loving it. |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 26, 2016 10:34:40 GMT -5
The DC-1 has two knobs that work in this very similar fashion. Works just fine imo. When I teach, I use this feature a lot. I started out not liking the DC-1 remote and knobs but ended up loving it. Perhaps we will see that on the new XDA-3? Or a new ERC-4 that's actually made for right handed people?   |
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Post by GTPlus on Sept 26, 2016 13:28:20 GMT -5
]Nope, the mini-x didn't morph into the fusion flex; that is/was a different product. The mini-x replacement was just announced on this forum few days ago, don't know much about it other than that. Different how? They look awfully a lot alike inside to me. Appears to me the Fusion flex is just a rebadged Sherbourn PA 2-50, and I believe the mini-x was just another variation. So maybe a Mini-X Sherbourn mash up? Regardless the knob on it annoys me. I really don't see the obsession with knobs, or the link to it being a premium feature. If anything I see it as the opposite; I equate knobs as noisy, prone to long term failure, static making, get off my rear to change the volume features. And if it isn't old-school analog then it is just a button that you are pushing rotationally anyway. |
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Post by copperpipe on Sept 26, 2016 16:38:38 GMT -5
Different how? They look awfully a lot alike inside to me. Appears to me the Fusion flex is just a rebadged Sherbourn PA 2-50, and I believe the mini-x was just another variation. So maybe a Mini-X Sherbourn mash up? Regardless the knob on it annoys me. This thread by Rory says the mini-x is being replaced by BasX A-100. But who knows, others probably consider the fusion quite similar to mini. That's all beside the point though. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/48095/notice-emotiva-mini-replaced-basxI really don't see the obsession with knobs, or the link to it being a premium feature. If anything I see it as the opposite; I equate knobs as noisy, prone to long term failure, static making, get off my rear to change the volume features. And if it isn't old-school analog then it is just a button that you are pushing rotationally anyway. Yeah, you're not going to ever "see the obsession". But this poll shows you are in the vast minority. Nobody said anything about getting off your rear either; volume knob or buttons doesn't have anything to do with whether it can be operated by remote. |
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Post by The History Kid on Sept 26, 2016 16:42:48 GMT -5
OK,,,,,,,OK,,,,,,,,,, The obligatory ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, View AttachmentIf they're shipping these out with each XMC-1 purchase, I'll buy a thousand ASAP. |
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zeppa
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by zeppa on Jan 12, 2017 13:42:33 GMT -5
Two knobs, actually: one for volume control, another for selecting inputs...
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