Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jan 18, 2017 13:27:57 GMT -5
Oh and one more thing.
Just for everyone's information.
There is at present only 2 chips on the market that can do the high bandwidth 4K and HDCP 2.0. First is the Silicone Image chip which is used in the MC-700. Its only limitation is it can't do OSD over live video. The second is the Panasonic chip which will be used in the XMC upgrade and RMC-1. It can do a basic OSD over live video.
So the lack of OSD in the Mc-700 is not a limitation on our part or a design choice but rather a limitation of the chip itself.
Lonnie
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Post by niuguy on Jan 18, 2017 13:29:22 GMT -5
Thanks Lonnie I think this is the key bit of information that needs to be distributed to users:
Inputs 1,2 and 3 are routed through the Silicon Image 4K chip where 4,5,6 are routed through the Analog Device chip. The Analog Device chip does support OSD over lays but can only support limited 4K and an older version of HDCP where the Silicone Image chip can support all 4K and HDCP, but it does not have the ability to do OSD overlays.
Essentially for those of us not using 4k we should be using inputs 4,5, and 6 (unless there is some reason not to).
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jan 18, 2017 13:42:53 GMT -5
Thanks Lonnie I think this is the key bit of information that needs to be distributed to users: Inputs 1,2 and 3 are routed through the Silicon Image 4K chip where 4,5,6 are routed through the Analog Device chip. The Analog Device chip does support OSD over lays but can only support limited 4K and an older version of HDCP where the Silicone Image chip can support all 4K and HDCP, but it does not have the ability to do OSD overlays.Essentially for those of us not using 4k we should be using inputs 4,5, and 6 (unless there is some reason not to). Correct if you are wanting OSD over live video. On a personal note, I don't use OSD. I always turn it off. Aside from initial set up, I have no use for it and it only gets in the way of what I'm watching. I know what my inputs are and as for volume, well that just comes down to how loud do I want it. I don't need OSD for that.  But that's just me. Lonnie |
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Post by harlan on Jan 18, 2017 14:24:06 GMT -5
2 questions:
1. Is it possible to rename the inputs?
2. Is it ok to leave the microphone plugged in all the time? The rear of the unit is not readily available and my girlfriend seems to change the room around every month.
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Post by Jim on Jan 18, 2017 14:34:03 GMT -5
Oh and one more thing. Just for everyone's information. There is at present only 2 chips on the market that can do the high bandwidth 4K and HDCP 2.0. First is the Silicone Image chip which is used in the MC-700. Its only limitation is it can't do OSD over live video. The second is the Panasonic chip which will be used in the XMC upgrade and RMC-1. It can do a basic OSD over live video. So the lack of OSD in the Mc-700 is not a limitation on our part or a design choice but rather a limitation of the chip itself. Lonnie The lack of chips (at the moment) really sounds like a testament to how new high bandwidth 4K is...... Lots of hype about 4K TVs but feels like much less talk about the rest of the chain. |
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Post by socketman on Jan 18, 2017 15:11:56 GMT -5
It would seem Panasonic has a corner on the market atm which means they are probly cost prohibitive for a product in this price range.
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 18, 2017 19:26:06 GMT -5
So the lack of OSD in the Mc-700 is not a limitation on our part or a design choice but rather a limitation of the chip itself. Technically no. Although the chip is the limitation, it is your design that chose that chip with the limitation - instead of designing it for another chip without the limitation. Yes, there are cost factors, etc. that I'm sure led to that choice over the other chip, but it's a design choice nonetheless. |
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Post by pmctexas on Jan 19, 2017 8:01:42 GMT -5
I have additional observations on the MC700 but will post it in the "issues" thread...
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Post by Percussionista on Jan 19, 2017 19:14:30 GMT -5
... If you use inputs 4,5 or 6 you will get OSD overlays but you won't get HDR or the really high bandwidth 4K. 1. I've been poring over the discussion with folks getting their new MC-700, and finally zeroed in on this statement. Just to be clear, if I have a 4K TV that does not have HDR (which is my situation at my PC), I can input any 4K source generator, such as a PC with a GPU with 4K output, or my Oppo203 playing a 4K movie (even if the source movie has HDR), and inputs 4-6 will handle the regular 4K part and send that through, omit any HDR info, and I can get OSD overlays too boot. I'm a bit worried here as the temporary manual says " HDMI Input #4 through HDMI Input #6 should be used for HD video sources and non-commercial 4k video content." So inputs 4-6 could reject 4K with HDR by either doing nothing (very bad), downgrading to 4K without HDR (perfect), or even downgrading to HD (bad). 2. You also responded re trims over Emo-Q: " ... the trims you are changing are separate from Emo-Q. Emo-Q sets its own trims and any adjustments you make are on top of what Emo-Q has done. That is why it starts at 0." Thus if Emo-Q is enabled and being used, the trim values are simply the delta from whatever Emo-Q has set - they are relative to the Emo-Q values not absolute values. This is exactly what I would expect, if this is the way they work. 3. Re the OSD overlay issue, and the future (EMP-1 e.g.), please don't do this ;-) When I do get a full-fledged 4K TV for the theater room, with HDR, I do want to see the OSD overlays. It looks like I won't be moving the MC-700 downstairs for a new TV as I thought I was going to do  Expecting to get a new TV maybe this summer, will see how the new 2017 models rate and get discounted. |
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 19, 2017 22:34:26 GMT -5
I would think by then many of the quirks will be resolved or understood better. If the firmware is mature, you wouldn't really need the OSD once you dialed in the MC. We're used to having it though, so it's going to be annoying for many to get used to not having it. I imagine there will be much complaining amongst the many different boards though.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jan 20, 2017 8:31:56 GMT -5
... If you use inputs 4,5 or 6 you will get OSD overlays but you won't get HDR or the really high bandwidth 4K. 1. I've been poring over the discussion with folks getting their new MC-700, and finally zeroed in on this statement. Just to be clear, if I have a 4K TV that does not have HDR (which is my situation at my PC), I can input any 4K source generator, such as a PC with a GPU with 4K output, or my Oppo203 playing a 4K movie (even if the source movie has HDR), and inputs 4-6 will handle the regular 4K part and send that through, omit any HDR info, and I can get OSD overlays too boot. I'm a bit worried here as the temporary manual says " HDMI Input #4 through HDMI Input #6 should be used for HD video sources and non-commercial 4k video content." So inputs 4-6 could reject 4K with HDR by either doing nothing (very bad), downgrading to 4K without HDR (perfect), or even downgrading to HD (bad). 2. You also responded re trims over Emo-Q: " ... the trims you are changing are separate from Emo-Q. Emo-Q sets its own trims and any adjustments you make are on top of what Emo-Q has done. That is why it starts at 0." Thus if Emo-Q is enabled and being used, the trim values are simply the delta from whatever Emo-Q has set - they are relative to the Emo-Q values not absolute values. This is exactly what I would expect, if this is the way they work. 3. Re the OSD overlay issue, and the future (EMP-1 e.g.), please don't do this ;-) When I do get a full-fledged 4K TV for the theater room, with HDR, I do want to see the OSD overlays. It looks like I won't be moving the MC-700 downstairs for a new TV as I thought I was going to do Expecting to get a new TV maybe this summer, will see how the new 2017 models rate and get discounted. 1. Yes you are correct. One thing to consider though is HDCP. If your computer or the blue ray sends out a signal that has HDCP 2.2 encryption, then you will have to use input 1,2 or 3. But this is unlikely since your TV probably does not support this anyway. So as long as the higher encryption is not there it will work just fine. Our processor will pass the signal on through. But if the higher encryption is present your TV may not show the movie. 2. This is how they work. 3. Please keep this in mind. The Panasonic chips do OSD over lays on 4K and they will be used on the RMC-1 and the upgraded HDMI board for the XMC-1. But those processors cost considerably more then the MC-700. To meet the price it was not possible to use those chips. If you have to have OSD then I suggest the XMC-1 with the new HDMI board or the RMC when it is released. Lonnie |
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Post by jmilton on Jan 20, 2017 10:24:25 GMT -5
1. I've been poring over the discussion with folks getting their new MC-700, and finally zeroed in on this statement. Just to be clear, if I have a 4K TV that does not have HDR (which is my situation at my PC), I can input any 4K source generator, such as a PC with a GPU with 4K output, or my Oppo203 playing a 4K movie (even if the source movie has HDR), and inputs 4-6 will handle the regular 4K part and send that through, omit any HDR info, and I can get OSD overlays too boot. I'm a bit worried here as the temporary manual says " HDMI Input #4 through HDMI Input #6 should be used for HD video sources and non-commercial 4k video content." So inputs 4-6 could reject 4K with HDR by either doing nothing (very bad), downgrading to 4K without HDR (perfect), or even downgrading to HD (bad). 2. You also responded re trims over Emo-Q: " ... the trims you are changing are separate from Emo-Q. Emo-Q sets its own trims and any adjustments you make are on top of what Emo-Q has done. That is why it starts at 0." Thus if Emo-Q is enabled and being used, the trim values are simply the delta from whatever Emo-Q has set - they are relative to the Emo-Q values not absolute values. This is exactly what I would expect, if this is the way they work. 3. Re the OSD overlay issue, and the future (EMP-1 e.g.), please don't do this ;-) When I do get a full-fledged 4K TV for the theater room, with HDR, I do want to see the OSD overlays. It looks like I won't be moving the MC-700 downstairs for a new TV as I thought I was going to do Expecting to get a new TV maybe this summer, will see how the new 2017 models rate and get discounted. 1. Yes you are correct. One thing to consider though is HDCP. If your computer or the blue ray sends out a signal that has HDCP 2.2 encryption, then you will have to use input 1,2 or 3. But this is unlikely since your TV probably does not support this anyway. So as long as the higher encryption is not there it will work just fine. Our processor will pass the signal on through. But if the higher encryption is present your TV may not show the movie. 2. This is how they work. 3. Please keep this in mind. The Panasonic chips do OSD over lays on 4K and they will be used on the RMC-1 and the upgraded HDMI board for the XMC-1. But those processors cost considerably more then the MC-700. To meet the price it was not possible to use those chips. If you have to have OSD then I suggest the XMC-1 with the new HDMI board or the RMC when it is released. Lonnie But he Onkyo Tx-SR373 can do #3 now and it sells for $299. What inexpensive chip are they using? |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 20, 2017 10:42:59 GMT -5
Oh and one more thing. Just for everyone's information. There is at present only 2 chips on the market that can do the high bandwidth 4K and HDCP 2.0. First is the Silicone Image chip which is used in the MC-700. Its only limitation is it can't do OSD over live video. The second is the Panasonic chip which will be used in the XMC upgrade and RMC-1. It can do a basic OSD over live video. So the lack of OSD in the Mc-700 is not a limitation on our part or a design choice but rather a limitation of the chip itself. Lonnie Off track, but when will the new XMC-1 board be available and is there a ballpark cost. yet? Need to save some money and be prepared. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jan 20, 2017 10:59:36 GMT -5
But he Onkyo Tx-SR373 can do #3 now and it sells for $299. What inexpensive chip are they using? Is that the same as the TX-353 in the US? |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jan 20, 2017 11:01:30 GMT -5
Oh and one more thing. Just for everyone's information. There is at present only 2 chips on the market that can do the high bandwidth 4K and HDCP 2.0. First is the Silicone Image chip which is used in the MC-700. Its only limitation is it can't do OSD over live video. The second is the Panasonic chip which will be used in the XMC upgrade and RMC-1. It can do a basic OSD over live video. So the lack of OSD in the Mc-700 is not a limitation on our part or a design choice but rather a limitation of the chip itself. Lonnie Off track, but when will the new XMC-1 board be available and is there a ballpark cost. yet? Need to save some money and be prepared. Not the one currently available now for $350, correct? That has only one in and out @ HDCP 2.2 We need some timing for the more advanced board and the Atmos upgrade. (does one include the other?) Too confusing at the moment. |
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Post by jmilton on Jan 20, 2017 11:08:59 GMT -5
Bootman: no
The US equivalent would be more like the NR555.
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Post by yeeeha17 on Jan 20, 2017 11:47:09 GMT -5
1. Yes you are correct. One thing to consider though is HDCP. If your computer or the blue ray sends out a signal that has HDCP 2.2 encryption, then you will have to use input 1,2 or 3. But this is unlikely since your TV probably does not support this anyway. So as long as the higher encryption is not there it will work just fine. Our processor will pass the signal on through. But if the higher encryption is present your TV may not show the movie. 2. This is how they work. 3. Please keep this in mind. The Panasonic chips do OSD over lays on 4K and they will be used on the RMC-1 and the upgraded HDMI board for the XMC-1. But those processors cost considerably more then the MC-700. To meet the price it was not possible to use those chips. If you have to have OSD then I suggest the XMC-1 with the new HDMI board or the RMC when it is released. Lonnie But he Onkyo Tx-SR373 can do #3 now and it sells for $299. What inexpensive chip are they using? Maybe Panasonic? Onkyo is a bigger company so they can buy in bigger bulks therefore get them cheaper than Emotiva can. |
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 20, 2017 12:00:18 GMT -5
Onkyo volume pricing would be my guess. Probably use that chip in all models across their line going forward and that would be much higher numbers than Emo.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 20, 2017 12:01:14 GMT -5
"To meet the price it was not possible to use these chips." I can understand that. This puts the company at an awkward spot. OSD isn't something crazy special. But it comes down to price.
If anything it speaks to the crazy but also, impressive way technical standards are evolving. Like it or not, 4k HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 is the way of the future. And we are stuck smack in the awkward middle. Emotiva as a company has to offer something. But the customer loses out in some way.
It's sad that the biggest reason these things don't work is due to security restrictions!
Why? I still don't understand. Where piracy has the most traction is not really the US. These other countries really aren't going to be paying the high prices demanded by original content. Are people in the US really jumping at piracy? The problem lies with movie companies. They are missing the mountain for the mole hill. Wouldn't it make more sense if the used regular HDMI 1.4 security? It would ensure that the security used in blu rays would extend to 4k. It also would ensure 4k content didn't require the consumer to play the waiting game till the standards to die down.
I don't think Emotiva is out to screw anybody. But even they, are subject to the ridiculous security expectations of HDCP 2.2.
Already there are reports that HDCP 2.2 has been broken. The same report happened soon after HDMI was introduced.
I am getting tired of unrealistic standards. What matters to me is technology not "FAKE" security.
HDMI 2 is amazing! Heck HDMI 1.4 delivers a remarkable breakthrough! But this security business forces people to upgrade their equipment when it is PERFECTLY CAPABLE!
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Post by GTPlus on Jan 20, 2017 12:10:45 GMT -5
All this talk of OSD and HDMI got the best of my tech-geek curiosity. So here is a pic from inside. Looks like Analog Devices and not Panasonic or are they the same. I also see an unused hdmi port trace on the far right.
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Expecting to get a new TV maybe this summer, will see how the new 2017 models rate and get discounted.
