MC 700 issues thread

[harlan]

I received my MC700 this afternoon. I got it up and running  but havent had a chance to do much in terms of an evaluation. I should have time on Thursday to post up some impressions.

I do however have a concern. The OSD is not working.

[pmctexas]

Thanks - I think we are going to need this thread.

I run the MC700 just for 4K video connected to Vizio P class display. So far it sounds (and looks) great. Actually, I think I have more mid-bass over the XMC...

The receiver display is pretty small but nothing can be done with that. Works fine for a smaller room

1 - Right now it doesn't do any sort of display overlay..
2 - The renamed inputs don't show on the MC700 perhaps it truncates after the first 5 characters ?  I also can't seem to get the last character changed...

Perhaps more to come as I experiment...

[jautor]

Jan 17, 2017 21:55:10 GMT -5 harlan said:

I do however have a concern. The OSD is not working.

Lonnie reported in another thread here: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/49169/mc700-trouble?page=2

that the chip that runs the 4K inputs doesn't support overlay OSD (at least not in 4K output). So we won't see the "pop up" display in 4K. You should see the overlay OSD on inputs 4-6, and if I follow his statement correctly, it should also work on inputs 1-3 when the output is 1080p.

I'll verify it myself in an hour or two!

EDIT: Well I've got mine up and running. The pop-up OSD does not appear on HDMI 1-3 (even at 1080p input/output), but does on 4-6. So if you want the pop-up volume and info panels, you should use HDMI inputs 4-6. But I will tell you now that it's not attractive, and I'll probably shut it off. The info popup is also way too sensitive, just moving around the icons on an AppleTV and it kept popping up (I assume as the audio stream starts/stops from the sound effects).

Jeff

[pmctexas]

My observations after spending another evening with the MC700. Some of these observations are probably due to design choices (not bugs). This is how I see them impacting us (as buyer/users)....

1 - As other have stated Inputs 1 to 3 will not pop-up OSD even with 1080 (i or p) sources. It does work fine on Inputs 4 to 6
2 - It doesn't seem to hold renamed input. I rename multiple inputs, exit - all is well then I change input and it's back to default - perhaps I'm doing something wrong - this could be a bug
3 - LOUD test tones - really - haven't we been down this path before.. There doesn't seem anyway to lower the volume on these tones. I can see folks with sensitive speakers and certain amps having tweeters blown. Why are we going through this again ? I stepped back in fear when Q was doing its thing. Again, perhaps I missed a setting
4 - Looks like you can't turn on/off Emo-Q by individual input - I assume it is on (yes it is red) but when I hit the trim it doesn't start at the Emo-Q setting instead at 0 so is it is overriding Emo-Q or adjusting from Emo-Q's calculated starting point ?
5 - Seems like MC700 adds the complication of switching between the two different video chips (Input 1 to 3 then Input 3 to 6).. Don't we have enough HDMI/HDCP handshaking issues to now add another hand-off... You all know - the black screens, the video delays (as everything re-synchs) the device turn on order, etc..
6 - The OSD set-up screen refers to a button not on the remote control (that I could find)

Overall - things are not terrible and bugs will get resolved.. I've lived through just about every Emo pre-amp since the beginning of the Company, I'll survive though another one....     
paul

[harlan]

I cannot get the Emo-Q calibrate to run. I hit the right arrow button and a message flashes for literally 1 sec that says " please wait IRC starting" but nothing happens.

ETA: The mic was not properly seated in the jack but now that I was able to run it I have the following observations:

The tones are way louder than my PE receiver.
The distance it calculates for my front left speaker is 0.95ft. The center and FR are 12.5 ft.
Im surprised it considers my speakers as large. 

[KeithL]

Make sure the microphone is plugged all the way in.

Speaker distance is calculated based on the acoustic delay between the speaker and the microphone position.
It does this by "listening for" the arrival of the leafing edge of the test signal.
Sometimes this process can be confused.... this can happen due to unusual room acoustics, unusual speakers - like dipoles, or for more mysterious reasons.
Usually repositioning the microphone, even a little bit, will solve it.
(You want to move the microphone forward or back, but not side to side.)

Jan 19, 2017 9:40:20 GMT -5 harlan said:

I cannot get the Emo-Q calibrate to run. I hit the right arrow button and a message flashes for literally 1 sec that says " please wait IRC starting" but nothing happens.

ETA: The mic was not properly seated in the jack but now that I was able to run it I have the following observations:

The tones are way louder than my PE receiver.
The distance it calculates for my front left speaker is 0.95ft. The center and FR are 12.5 ft.
Im surprised it considers my speakers as large. 

[niuguy]

I found the test tones interesting. I am genuinely curious (not alarmed or concerned) why the MC-700 test tones are so much different than, say, the Audyssey tones out of my Denon. They almost sound like white noise but I did notice mixed amongst the white noise was some tonal changes. With Audessey and even REW the sounds are more of the classic low note to high note chirp sound. (The proper name alludes me) Are there advantages or disadvantages to this sort of sound from a data gathering perspective?

[leefdalucky]

a "Sweep"?

[harlan]

I was able to get a better EQ result by moving the mic forward a foot as suggested above.

The test tones are a lot different than Pioneer's MCAAC.

I am not getting any sound from HDMI input 1 (4k dvd player). I've worked around that by also using a optical cable and associating opt 1 with HDMI input 1.

[Lonnie]

Jan 19, 2017 8:24:28 GMT -5 pmctexas said:

My observations after spending another evening with the MC700. Some of these observations are probably due to design choices (not bugs). This is how I see them impacting us (as buyer/users)....

1 - As other have stated Inputs 1 to 3 will not pop-up OSD even with 1080 (i or p) sources. It does work fine on Inputs 4 to 6
2 - It doesn't seem to hold renamed input. I rename multiple inputs, exit - all is well then I change input and it's back to default - perhaps I'm doing something wrong - this could be a bug
3 - LOUD test tones - really - haven't we been down this path before.. There doesn't seem anyway to lower the volume on these tones. I can see folks with sensitive speakers and certain amps having tweeters blown. Why are we going through this again ? I stepped back in fear when Q was doing its thing. Again, perhaps I missed a setting
4 - Looks like you can't turn on/off Emo-Q by individual input - I assume it is on (yes it is red) but when I hit the trim it doesn't start at the Emo-Q setting instead at 0 so is it is overriding Emo-Q or adjusting from Emo-Q's calculated starting point ?
5 - Seems like MC700 adds the complication of switching between the two different video chips (Input 1 to 3 then Input 3 to 6).. Don't we have enough HDMI/HDCP handshaking issues to now add another hand-off... You all know - the black screens, the video delays (as everything re-synchs) the device turn on order, etc..
6 - The OSD set-up screen refers to a button not on the remote control (that I could find)

Overall - things are not terrible and bugs will get resolved.. I've lived through just about every Emo pre-amp since the beginning of the Company, I'll survive though another one....     
paul

FYI

1. Already discussed.
2. It does hold them, but there is a bug in the left exit function of the code. Will get it corrected.
3. If you select Test Tones, they will play at a level relative to what you have the volume set at. Emo=Q sets its own volume. I will say the level is a little loud but that is because it is loading the room at reference levels. So they are a little loud but they won't damage your speakers. We ran it many times are our smallest bookshelf speakers and its fine.
4. If you don't want Emo-Q, then simply select one of the Manual EQs that have no changes made to it or go into Emo-Q and just reset that one EQ back to factory. That will take it out of the loop. Also the trims you are changing are separate from Emo-Q. Emo-Q sets its own trims and any adjustments you make are on top of what Emo-Q has done. That is why it starts at 0.
5. Everyone we asked said it had to have at least 5 or 6 HDMI inputs. To get there you have to use multiple video chips, there is no way around that. To use a single chip would have limited the number of inputs to 4.
6. Not sure which button you are referring too, but I will have a look and see.

Hope this clarifies things.

Lonnie

[KeithL]

The test tones used by the MC-700 are "band limited white noise".... which means that they're based on white noise which has been filtered to deliver a specific spectral response.

The basic idea is to measure the frequency response of the room accurately over the entire audio frequency range. In the old days, you would probably play a series of tones, then measure the level of each using a sound level meter. Unfortunately, because the frequency response of a typical room is often jagged, with sharp narrow peaks and dips, using only a few tones is going to give you a rather inaccurate picture of what's really going on. In addition, when you allow a single tone to play for a few seconds, certain tones tend to "build up", so the reading you get actually changes over several seconds. It would be very difficult to compensate for this if you used long slow sweep tones. (You're getting an accurate picture of the reverberant response of the room, because it's the repeated echoes that add to the tone, and cause it to build up - but you're not getting the most accurate picture of the instantaneous response of the room.) When taking individual measurements, the usual solution to this problem is to turn on the tone and take a reading very quickly (it's called "windowing"). By taking the measurement before the echoes from the walls and ceiling have time to reach the microphone, you can measure only the sound that travels directly from the speaker to the microphone.

What you're comparing are simply two different types of specialized test tones designed to avoid this sort of interaction, and so provide an accurate picture of the frequency response of your room and speakers. White noise avoids exciting a narrow range of frequencies excessively by playing a mix of a huge number of frequencies. The software can then analyze the frequency response curve of the sound picked up by the microphone, compare it to the original sound, and calculate both the difference in overall frequency response, and even how that response changes over time. Note that the white noise bursts are still of relatively limited duration. The chirp tone avoids this sort of interaction because, even though the chirp tone runs for a few seconds, any given frequency is only played for a very short amount of time, so it doesn't have any time to build up. The software can also include a filter that "follows" the tone. By only listening for a given frequency for a short amount of time after it is played, the filter can let only the direct sound from the speaker through, and cut out the later reflections from the walls and ceiling at that frequency.

The short answer is that different measurement software uses different specialized test tones to get the most accurate readings.
The measurement routines used by EmoQ are designed to use bursts of band limited white noise - so that's what they provide as test tones.

Jan 19, 2017 10:50:53 GMT -5 niuguy said:

I found the test tones interesting. I am genuinely curious (not alarmed or concerned) why the MC-700 test tones are so much different than, say, the Audyssey tones out of my Denon. They almost sound like white noise but I did notice mixed amongst the white noise was some tonal changes. With Audessey and even REW the sounds are more of the classic low note to high note chirp sound. (The proper name alludes me) Are there advantages or disadvantages to this sort of sound from a data gathering perspective?

[rbk123]

From Lonnie's post in the other thread:

2. Output 1 is the primary output and the only one with HDCP2.2. If you use output 2 it will pass all resolutions, but it does not have HDCP2.2 and as such, if the TV or Source pings for the keys, then the TV will most likely stop playing the video.

3. Changing apps means you are changing from a low band resolution to a high band and apps in general do not require HDCP where movies do. Thus the TV, Processor and Source will all have to renegotiate the link when changing from a non-HDCP material to material that does require HDCP.

As I don't have any 4k inputs, or a 4k TV, it would seem I would want to:

- use inputs 4, 5, or 6 -> this would get me OSD
I agree with Lonnie in a prior post about not needing OSD once setup, however I imagine there's going to be ongoing "re-setup" changes I'll need to make as the firmware gets updated/mature over time, and it'll be easier on my eyes to use OSD until then.


- use output 2 -> this should improve my handshake time/performance as no risk of any HDCP 2.2 confusion/delays? This is just an assumption. With no HDCP 2.2 source or a 4k display, perhaps there will be no difference in performance for me between output 1 or 2. I'll play with it and see how it performs.

[Lonnie]

Jan 19, 2017 15:17:06 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

From Lonnie's post in the other thread:

2. Output 1 is the primary output and the only one with HDCP2.2. If you use output 2 it will pass all resolutions, but it does not have HDCP2.2 and as such, if the TV or Source pings for the keys, then the TV will most likely stop playing the video.

3. Changing apps means you are changing from a low band resolution to a high band and apps in general do not require HDCP where movies do. Thus the TV, Processor and Source will all have to renegotiate the link when changing from a non-HDCP material to material that does require HDCP.

As I don't have any 4k inputs, or a 4k TV, it would seem I would want to:

- use inputs 4, 5, or 6 -> this would get me OSD
I agree with Lonnie in a prior post about not needing OSD once setup, however I imagine there's going to be ongoing "re-setup" changes I'll need to make as the firmware gets updated/mature over time, and it'll be easier on my eyes to use OSD until then.


- use output 2 -> this should improve my handshake time/performance as no risk of any HDCP 2.2 confusion/delays? This is just an assumption. With no HDCP 2.2 source or a 4k display, perhaps there will be no difference in performance for me between output 1 or 2. I'll play with it and see how it performs.

I would agree, since you don't have 4K sources or a 4K TV, then use input 4,5 or 6 and either output, choice is yours.

Lonnie

[harlan]

Lonnie,

Thank you for helping us out. You have clarified several "issues" for us and its much appreciated.

In addition as someone who goes to the gym everyday, I definitely agree with your gym rules .

Any ideas why I am not getting any audio in HDMI 1? I have a Samsung 4K player hooked up to it. I worked around the issue by using an Optical cable and configuring HDMI 1 to use Optical 1 input for audio.

[leefdalucky]

Do you need to turn off secondary audio on the samsung and switch to bitstream (on the digital output)?
I use to have that problem on the older panasonic bluray players.
just thinking about potential solutions for you...

cheers!

Or also does your player require 2 lines?
(it should just be able to go directly through receiver though)..it might be worth a try to start removing variables.

www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00048661/
(see 00:45)

[niuguy]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

I have a couple of issues I've found while using the optical input of my chromecast audio...although not show stoppers are definitely annoying.

1) Optical input keeps reverting back to dolby pro logic. I have to turn the tv on, enter menu, change to stereo each time I fire it up.
2) I have to hit digital input button twice to get to optical even though I used optical last time. I'll have to mess with logitech's software to tell it to send the command twice unless you can fix it.

Thanks!

[scottyp1]

I've had several issues with my MC-700, I ordered it and an XPA-4 Gen 3 to biamp my Polk LSIM703's... I spent hours trying, but could not access SBL/SBR... So I emailed Emo and they said Biamping is not available yet and they are working on it.. oh well so I retried running my Apple Music Bluetooth, since I cannot plug in directly like I could my old receiver, and the Bluetooth module cuts out every 12 seconds.. so I haven't got much of anything to work on the MC-700... the little bit I did get to work I was blown away by the sound quality off Bluetooth.

[creimes]

For anyone having issues with Room EQ do yourself a favor, if possible add Acoustic Panels in your room to help with the interaction between your speakers and the room and also to help your Room EQ to achieve a more accurate correction, just my .02 as I built my own with 1x3 MDF, Roxul SafeNsound and some cheap walmart sheets.

One of the best if not the best ways to achieve better SQ

Chad

[pmctexas]

Keith and Lonnie - Thanks for the feedback... Overall MC-700 is a great step forward in the product line...

[brutiarti]

Is it possible to separate impressions from issues, maybe two different threads?