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Post by pknaz on Apr 4, 2017 13:23:35 GMT -5
What are your requirements? How low do you need/want the new speakers to play? Sub mid 30's? How loud do you want to be able to play them? 85db, 95db, 105db(ridiculously loud, even for my man cave)? How far away from your speakers is your seating position? What (if any) room treatments do you have? If you're lacking in room treatments, this may be a much better way to spend that $850.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 15:21:52 GMT -5
Hi Matt,
From the options you've proposed above, it sounds like you're talking about three very different possible directions for your speaker choice. I have met Paul Carmody and I believe I've heard the Core speakers once, but I have heard many other Paul Carmody designs, and I'm sure you have some of the best of the best DIY loudspeaker implementations out there, if you followed Paul's design and recommendations carefully and put some attention to detail into the construction, and those speakers should be quite an asset.
The Tekton speakers are what I'd call "unapologetic" hi-fi. They are rectangular boxes, they are large, and they are loud. Tekton is still one brand of speakers I have yet to encounter "in the wild" or at a hi-fi show, but they seem conceptually solid (looking at them, I can see how their design "could" work well) and people seem to like them. They seem to favor high sensitivity configurations with hard-suspension pro audio drivers and multiple tweeter arrays.
The Airmotiv speakers are a different "genre" of speaker, more similar to the speakers out there by Polk, B&W, ELAC, Def Tech, and what-have-you. I'd refer to this as a "mainstream" speaker, with a form factor that's more at home in typical living situations that don't always revolve around the hi-fi. Sensitivity is by necessity a bit lower (we're not talking about pro-style 8" and 10" drivers with light paper cones and fabric surrounds), but the drivers are optimized for detail, resolution, and self-damping.
The Core speakers by Paul Carmody use premium drivers from Dayton Audio (a fairly consistently good-performing DIY brand) that give really exemplary performance in terms of naturalness and detail, although you are more limited in volume by the Core's use of a single woofer. The key benefit with DIY speakers is that if you are willing to take the time, you really can build something that performs on par with the "high end" echelon of loudspeakers, and not "value" models, either. You may not find that moving from the Core to either the Tekton or Airmotiv speakers are a huge step up, just a different flavor. But if a different flavor is what you're after, then a change probably makes sense. The folded ribbon tweeter of the Airmotiv speakers will be a little more resolving than the Dayton Reference Series dome tweeter in the Core, and the bass may be somewhat more impactful and dynamic, but other areas might not show an upgrade. If you need something that is just "way louder", damn the neighbors, and never mind any change in the handling of sonic detail, then the Tekton speakers may be more to your liking. Whichever way you go, you'll have a nice sonic counterpoint to the Core speakers, and between the two you can decide what parts of each speaker's sound seems most 'right' to you. I have multiple pairs of speakers that all do different things well, and I sometimes cycle between them. We all know the saying about variety.
Best regards,
Rory Buszka
Emotiva Engineering
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Post by kauai82 on Apr 4, 2017 16:18:43 GMT -5
You must be thinking of another DIY speaker. Hi Matt, from memory (always risky) the Core 2 is a Paul Carmody design and with Dayton RS180 midwoofer and Dayton RS28 tweeter has a frequency response that looks like this;  Maybe I do have it confused with some other similar design, do you have a frequency response curve for yours? A 2 way design with a 7" mid woofer would generally have a response curve something like the above and that is why I suggested a sub woofer might help more than a main speaker change. I would suggest a sub woofer that has decent response up to around 150 hz which the BaseX S10 does. Cheers Gary No, I don't have the frequency response curve for my Core 2. But, I must stand corrected. It looks like you are correct that the Core 2 frequency response drops off after 150 hz. I will temporarily move my HSU subwoofer from the sound room to the office and see how that sounds. The problem with the BaseX S10 is that it does not have speaker level inputs. The Primaluna has no sub out so that knocks the Emotiva sub out of the equation for the office. Unless you know how to hook up a sub to the Primaluna with no line outs. Thanks for the info and I will update you in a few days on what I discover after I hook up the sub in the office. Matt |
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Post by kauai82 on Apr 4, 2017 16:28:01 GMT -5
The suggestions I read in this thread look like they are all good. My perspective, you already have a nice diy speaker. I haven't heard it but from what I gather good diy speakers really hit above the retail price range of similar speakers in value and quality. It looks like budgetting is important to you - as it is for me. So from I'm seeing is that if you are looking for a significant worthwhile improvement in your investment then you may benefit from spending a lot more. $850 only nets you so much, usually at the entry or the lower mid range of speakers. If your speakers are already pretty good, man I don't know if you're going to get a great improvement. Having said that, the Emotiva airmotiv 4 speakers really impressed me for what they could do on the budget. So if the T1's are anything like that, it must be good value. I am starting to believe that if I want a big improvement in my SQ that I will have to up the budget. I believe that the speakers mentioned in the thread are all good, but would they be a big enough SQ improvement to justify the cost. I am going to try out one of my subs in the office and see how that improves the sound and I might go to a local high end dealer that carries Sonus Faber and see what the $1200 a pair of bookshelves sounds to my ears. It also seems that Sonus Faber has a new lower priced line that I forget the name of right now that runs $1400 a pair. Hopefully they will have a set that I can demo. Thanks for the great input. Matt |
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Post by kauai82 on Apr 4, 2017 16:52:56 GMT -5
Hi Matt, From the options you've proposed above, it sounds like you're talking about three very different possible directions for your speaker choice. I have met Paul Carmody and I believe I've heard the Core speakers once, but I have heard many other Paul Carmody designs, and I'm sure you have some of the best of the best DIY loudspeaker implementations out there, if you followed Paul's design and recommendations carefully and put some attention to detail into the construction, and those speakers should be quite an asset. The Tekton speakers are what I'd call "unapologetic" hi-fi. They are rectangular boxes, they are large, and they are loud. Tekton is still one brand of speakers I have yet to encounter "in the wild" or at a hi-fi show, but they seem conceptually solid (looking at them, I can see how their design "could" work well) and people seem to like them. They seem to favor high sensitivity configurations with hard-suspension pro audio drivers and multiple tweeter arrays. The Airmotiv speakers are a different "genre" of speaker, more similar to the speakers out there by Polk, B&W, ELAC, Def Tech, and what-have-you. I'd refer to this as a "mainstream" speaker, with a form factor that's more at home in typical living situations that don't always revolve around the hi-fi. Sensitivity is by necessity a bit lower (we're not talking about pro-style 8" and 10" drivers with light paper cones and fabric surrounds), but the drivers are optimized for detail, resolution, and self-damping. The Core speakers by Paul Carmody use premium drivers from Dayton Audio (a fairly consistently good-performing DIY brand) that give really exemplary performance in terms of naturalness and detail, although you are more limited in volume by the Core's use of a single woofer. The key benefit with DIY speakers is that if you are willing to take the time, you really can build something that performs on par with the "high end" echelon of loudspeakers, and not "value" models, either. You may not find that moving from the Core to either the Tekton or Airmotiv speakers are a huge step up, just a different flavor. But if a different flavor is what you're after, then a change probably makes sense. The folded ribbon tweeter of the Airmotiv speakers will be a little more resolving than the Dayton Reference Series dome tweeter in the Core, and the bass may be somewhat more impactful and dynamic, but other areas might not show an upgrade. If you need something that is just "way louder", damn the neighbors, and never mind any change in the handling of sonic detail, then the Tekton speakers may be more to your liking. Whichever way you go, you'll have a nice sonic counterpoint to the Core speakers, and between the two you can decide what parts of each speaker's sound seems most 'right' to you. I have multiple pairs of speakers that all do different things well, and I sometimes cycle between them. We all know the saying about variety. Best regards, Rory Buszka Emotiva Engineering Thanks Rory for taking the time for a very in-depth and thoughtful post. I believe that I am not just looking for a different flavor but an improvement in SQ. I am going to try my HSU subwoofer with the Core 2's in the office system and see how that sounds. I am not sure why I did not think of that earlier. I will listen to some more speakers at some local high end shops and see if I fall in love with a particular sound. There are also some high end DIY kits the Carrera and the Jeff Bagby " Solstice" that run about $1000 a pair that might be in the picture if I up the budget. Of course I might just go with my original plan and up grade the Core 2 with the Scan Speak 7" Revelator and let my local friend electrical engineer the design the crossover and voice them to my liking. He did a great job with my Jasmines bookshelf speakers. The only draw back to that route is that he is so busy with work and his family it might take him four to six months to finish the project. Long time to go with no tunes in the office. Again thanks for the info. Matt |
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Post by USNRet on Apr 4, 2017 17:20:18 GMT -5
Buy used Klipsch: Forte / Chorus / Cornwall for rock or Heresy / LaScala for jazz (add sub for rock). Very efficient horns i.e. my Klipschorns take 1/10th of one watt for 65-70 dB at my 14' couch. The ones I listed are not far behind that; I have owned all of them. I left out the KHorns and Belles due to budget but if you were to come across a deal... I bought a pair of Belles for $400 once and a pair of new in box Klipschorns for $2800.
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 17:52:53 GMT -5
Buy used Klipsch: Forte / Chorus / Cornwall for rock or Heresy / LaScala for jazz (add sub for rock). Very efficient horns i.e. my Klipschorns take 1/10th of one watt for 65-70 dB at my 14' couch. The ones I listed are not far behind that; I have owned all of them. I left out the KHorns and Belles due to budget but if you were to come across a deal... I bought a pair of Belles for $400 once and a pair of new in box Klipschorns for $2800. Those new Klipsch Forté III look brilliant ! I would encourage everyone to look into these.  |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 17:57:33 GMT -5
Revel speakers are very good speakers. They do more research than anyone else. Someone name me someone that does more.
Salk sound speakers are very good.
Emotiva is making excellent speakers right now !
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Post by USNRet on Apr 4, 2017 17:58:01 GMT -5
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 18:00:48 GMT -5
Have you heard the Klipsch Forté III ? Go Navy ! You guys protected me in Granada !  |
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Post by USNRet on Apr 4, 2017 18:04:03 GMT -5
Have you heard the Klipsch Forté III ? I have not, there were other prototypes last year. Cruise thru that link and surf back to 2016/2015 files that show some of what we heard then. H3s and and more will be out at the party place this year |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 18:08:49 GMT -5
Have you heard the Klipsch Forté III ? I have not, there were other prototypes last year. Cruise thru that link and surf back to 2016/2015 files that show some of what we heard then. H3s and and more will be out at the party place this year If you hear them please report back. An old back injury has me home bound but would love here your take on them. Cheers Mike |
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Post by rossonero3 on Apr 4, 2017 18:10:06 GMT -5
The Tekton speakers are what I'd call "unapologetic" hi-fi. I love this. I'm going to use this for future reference if you don't mind. I actually find this a virtue of the Tektons. Before I had my Lores I had a pair of B&W's and honestly I was so bored with them, I sold them off quickly. Like the OP, I craved something 'different' and unique, and Tekton ended up fitting the bill. To each his own for sure... |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 4, 2017 18:34:15 GMT -5
Just to clarify, when I mentioned the Paul Carmody design (like Rory) I was suggesting that they are very good and would take a lot of beating. Finding better quality in a replacement speaker at your budget of ~$850 would be extremely difficult. My suggestion of adding the sub was 3 fold, not just to add some of the missing lower frequencies but to take away the need for the modest output power amp to attempt to drive the Core 2's down to those frequencies and for the 7" mid woofer to try and perform at frequencies it's not designed to handle. My view is that you will get better performance out of both the Primaluna Prologue One and Core 2s whilst adding some currently missing bass. In simple terms, the main speakers would sound better. If you just replaced the main speakers (without a sub woofer) those benefits would not be there.
If you want to test it out, there are a number of cheap (under $50) high/low pass filters that handle speaker levels. Try you local car audio outlet, they are quite common in that application.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 19:28:16 GMT -5
Just to clarify, when I mentioned the Paul Carmody design (like Rory) I was suggesting that they are very good and would take a lot of beating. Finding better quality in a replacement speaker at your budget of ~$850 would be extremely difficult. My suggestion of adding the sub was 3 fold, not just to add some of the missing lower frequencies but to take away the need for the modest output power amp to attempt to drive the Core 2's down to those frequencies and for the 7" mid woofer to try and perform at frequencies it's not designed to handle. My view is that you will get better performance out of both the Primaluna Prologue One and Core 2s whilst adding some currently missing bass. In simple terms, the main speakers would sound better. If you just replaced the main speakers (without a sub woofer) those benefits would not be there. If you want to test it out, there are a number of cheap (under $50) high/low pass filters that handle speaker levels. Try you local car audio outlet, they are quite common in that application. Cheers Gary Wow, I had no clue what this was all about but I would listen to Gary. He really knows his stuff ! This is cool advice Gary Cook.  |
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Post by copperpipe on Apr 4, 2017 20:02:55 GMT -5
Revel speakers are very good speakers. They do more research than anyone else. Someone name me someone that does more. Is it a competition? Because Kef does some serious research, including the uni-q driver, computer modeling of ports and cabinet and air flowing through it all etc. Video below is an hour long, but is a great watch: twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/281 |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 20:16:03 GMT -5
Revel speakers are very good speakers. They do more research than anyone else. Someone name me someone that does more. Is it a competition? Because Kef does some serious research, including the uni-q driver, computer modeling of ports and cabinet and air flowing through it all etc. Video below is an hour long, but is a great watch: twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/281This is good to hear about Kef. Your right they do a lot of research. I see the French with Focal doing amazing things. The Harman group has a very long history of testing there competitors speakers and they have this anechoic chamber that they refine there speakers with and there is this Dr. dude that is smart. I want competition so everyone gets better. Yes this is competition. |
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 4, 2017 20:33:45 GMT -5
Is it a competition? Because Kef does some serious research, including the uni-q driver, computer modeling of ports and cabinet and air flowing through it all etc. Video below is an hour long, but is a great watch: twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/281This is good to hear about Kef. Your right they do a lot of research. I see the French with Focal doing amazing things. The Harman group has a very long history of testing there competitors speakers and they have this anechoic chamber that they refine there speakers with and there is this Dr. dude that is smart. I want competition so everyone gets better. Yes this is competition. Hey don't forget Bose, okay? Talking about research, they do TONS of research. Marketing research, but research nonetheless... |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 20:36:25 GMT -5
This is good to hear about Kef. Your right they do a lot of research. I see the French with Focal doing amazing things. The Harman group has a very long history of testing there competitors speakers and they have this anechoic chamber that they refine there speakers with and there is this Dr. dude that is smart. I want competition so everyone gets better. Yes this is competition. Hey don't forget Bose, okay? Talking about research, they do TONS of research. Marketing research, but research nonetheless... Are you taking silly pills ? You have been making me laugh hard lately.  |
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nrde
Minor Hero
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Post by nrde on Apr 5, 2017 8:00:38 GMT -5
Revel speakers are very good speakers. They do more research than anyone else. Someone name me someone that does more. Define "more". Some manufacturer in China might put 1000 man years in research, some other manufacturer 2 man years and the result is the same. It's the result that matters. |
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