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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 11, 2017 15:07:22 GMT -5
Please read this review. It is not all peaches and cream. The subjective listenings were varying - not so good with Zu Soul Supremes, very nice with Magnepan .7, so so depending on the music with KEF LS50, and screechy hard sounding with Technics SB-C700S "which revealed the Emotiva's primary shortcomings: transister sound."
The testing by John Atkinson reveals increasing THD+N above 15khz increasing to 1% at 20khz. Strange spikes are seen, four per cycle, which Atkinson attributes to the switching power supply. Inter-modulation distortion using 19khz and 20khz is very poor, attributed to the poor high frequency performance of the amp above 15khz. Using 9khz and 10 khz signals resulted in good intermodulation performance although still showing signs of high frequency inter modulation products. This leads Atkinson to say the amp performs well below 10Khz but its problems at the top end of the audioband bothers him.
The subjective reviewer, Herb Reichert, says the amp is indicative of "Class B sound at a Class H price", a comment that Dan Laufman thanked them for while ignoring, as well he should, any of the negatives.
So what about it? Is the testing of John Atkinson valid or an anomaly? Is the switching power supply possibly at fault for the poor high frequency performance? Or was there something defective about the unit that under went the Stereophile testing?
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 11, 2017 18:58:55 GMT -5
Let's start here, Technics SB-C700S sound "screechy and hard" with any amplifier that I've ever heard, a friend of mine calls them "brash". Some people may like them but I find them an insult to my ears, which doesn't happen all that often. Panasonic trying to do a KEF with coaxial drivers and failing, miserably.
The rest I have to say is some confirmation of my view regarding the use of switching power supplies in power amplifiers. Hoping to be proved wrong of course.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on Jul 11, 2017 19:28:44 GMT -5
Switching PS is done at a frequency. IM problems when presented with the unusual conditions of 19khz / 20khz 'mix' would not be unexpected.
Did the test mention the frequency of the switcher?
I'd have to see the Square Wave at 10khz to further judge.
Atkinson is just ONE opinion, though he does indeed have a following.
I was thinking along similar lines. When I was noodling thru an nCore build, I wondered about swapping the SMPS for a Linear. I wonder what the trade offs are?
Are they trade UPS?
The attraction of a switcher is a real reduction in shipping weight. Now if an amp only didnt' need so much Heat Sink on the output devices. 'D' seems to settle much
of that, but introduces other problems / limits.
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 11, 2017 19:40:12 GMT -5
Atkinson did not mention the frequency of the ps switcher.
The 10khz wave form looked stable (no ringing) but also looked somewhat rounded with less than verticle rise and fall times (low bandwidth?).
Scope curves aren't opinions.
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Post by beardedalbatross on Jul 11, 2017 19:52:33 GMT -5
While I'm not sure why someone would subjectively review any solid state amp that approaches any sort of competence, I'm glad Atkinson takes measurements. There is a lot about Stereophile I don't like but they are definitely a great resource for measurements. Speaking of which, take a look at the Zu Soul Supreme atrocity. A steal at $5600 a pair, am I right? |
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Post by socketman on Jul 11, 2017 21:05:26 GMT -5
Can anyone comment on how this compares to the Gen2 amps.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 12, 2017 4:40:53 GMT -5
Can anyone comment on how this compares to the Gen2 amps. Gen 1's and 2's don't have switching power supplies, they have a huge toroidal transformer and a linear power supply with a monster bank of capacitors. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 12, 2017 6:24:15 GMT -5
Gen 1's and 2's don't have switching power supplies, they have a huge toroidal transformer and a linear power supply with a monster bank of capacitors. Cheers Gary And that's what makes them weigh so much compared to the Gen. 3s. garbulky, being a 'heavy iron' man, definitely prefers the Gen 1 & 2 XPA products for that reason. I'm as yet unconvinced, but I must say that the Gar's Gen 2 XPA-1s do sound mighty. The only Emotiva amps I've heard with the "new" switching power supplies are the BasX A-300 and A-500. To my ears, they both sound excellent. As excellent as the earlier XPA models? Not having them side-by-side, I couldn't say. But I can say that I think they're awfully close. But I still think that Gar's Gen 2 XPA-1s sound better than either of the BasX amps. YMMV As to the Stereophile review, I think it was honest. That's all you can ask for. The reviewer isn't an audio auricle - only someone giving their opinion. If one reviewer likes (or dislikes) a specific product, then it's just another opinion. If a dozen reviewers all like (or dislike) a product, then it's less likely that they're all wrong - but it's still just opinions. Even measurements may be suspect - What was the plus or minus tolerance of the test equipment? Was the test equipment properly calibrated? Were the measurements in different reviews actually apples-to-apples comparisons with identical test parameters? But I digress... The good thing about reviewers is that they should be relatively consistent. If Robert E. Greene, for example, likes a smooth power response from speakers, and another reviewer thinks that power response is academic, then you'd expect for the two to have different opinions of a speaker. But it is humorous that some reviewers will do their best to damn a component with faint praise. I recently saw a review of a Yamaha integrated amplifier that I thought did exactly this. I thought that the review was dancing on a pinhead to avoid saying that the amp was really good (due to its big-Japanese-manufacturer source). But maybe that's just my impression. Cheers - Boom |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 12, 2017 6:51:55 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 12, 2017 8:04:47 GMT -5
I never intended to say it was. Other reviews, however... |
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 12, 2017 8:26:09 GMT -5
I personally think for movie viewing these amps will be just fine.
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Post by roadwar on Jul 12, 2017 8:36:42 GMT -5
Gen 1's and 2's don't have switching power supplies, they have a huge toroidal transformer and a linear power supply with a monster bank of capacitors. Cheers Gary And that's what makes them weigh so much compared to the Gen. 3s. garbulky , being a 'heavy iron' man, definitely prefers the Gen 1 & 2 XPA products for that reason. I'm as yet unconvinced, but I must say that the Gar's Gen 2 XPA-1s do sound mighty. The only Emotiva amps I've heard with the "new" switching power supplies are the BasX A-300 and A-500. To my ears, they both sound excellent. As excellent as the earlier XPA models? Not having them side-by-side, I couldn't say. But I can say that I think they're awfully close. But I still think that Gar's Gen 2 XPA-1s sound better than either of the BasX amps. YMMV As to the Stereophile review, I think it was honest. That's all you can ask for. The reviewer isn't an audio auricle - only someone giving their opinion. If one reviewer likes (or dislikes) a specific product, then it's just another opinion. If a dozen reviewers all like (or dislike) a product, then it's less likely that they're all wrong - but it's still just opinions. Even measurements may be suspect - What was the plus or minus tolerance of the test equipment? Was the test equipment properly calibrated? Were the measurements in different reviews actually apples-to-apples comparisons with identical test parameters? But I digress... The good thing about reviewers is that they should be relatively consistent. If Robert E. Greene, for example, likes a smooth power response from speakers, and another reviewer thinks that power response is academic, then you'd expect for the two to have different opinions of a speaker. But it is humorous that some reviewers will do their best to damn a component with faint praise. I recently saw a review of a Yamaha integrated amplifier that I thought did exactly this. I thought that the review was dancing on a pinhead to avoid saying that the amp was really good (due to its big-Japanese-manufacturer source). But maybe that's just my impression. Cheers - Boom Uh Boom, the 300 and 500 amps have linear power supplies. |
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Post by vcautokid on Jul 12, 2017 8:53:42 GMT -5
Correct the 300 and 500 Bas-X amplifiers are Linear Power Supplies.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 12, 2017 8:55:56 GMT -5
Well then, never mind. I thought that (being so light) they must have switching supplies. My bad.
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Post by copperpipe on Jul 12, 2017 11:14:21 GMT -5
I personally think for movie viewing these amps will be just fine. I can think of many cheaper amps that will sound "just fine" for movies  You buy Emotiva for "sounds awesome", not "just fine". |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 12, 2017 11:57:49 GMT -5
We audiophiles will settle for 'accurate'.
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Post by brubacca on Jul 12, 2017 12:02:01 GMT -5
We audiophiles will settle for 'accurate'. I prefer musical over accurate. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 12, 2017 12:04:21 GMT -5
So you prefer a system that makes the 3 stooges sound like the 3 Sopranos? LOL
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 12, 2017 12:33:33 GMT -5
For movie sound, I'd be content with a trio of Crown XLS amps. No, their sound isn't good enough for stereo listening, but they'd do it (for me) in surround sound. YMMV And yes, I do buy Emotiva gear not for "just fine" but specifically for "sounds awesome!" And I usually get what I pay for. I consider Emotiva gear to be BOTH musical AND accurate. Yes, some do one better than the other - IMHO, the XPA-1L amps leaned to the "accurate" side (verb is deliberately descriptive). The XPA-1, Gen. 2 and the Mini-X A-100 (used as a headphone amp) are some of the most musical amps I've heard (but still pretty darned accurate). I have a little pair of Heathkit tube amps that are some of the most musical I've ever heard - but they neither sound or measure as "accurate." You pays your money, you takes your choice. Mr. klinemj says his Class D amps are both musical and accurate. But the Class D in my Lyngdorf is only musical if you don't equalize it into being accurate. In other words, it has imaging and "transparency" to burn if you leave it in its own natural state. But if you measure the results from the amp, and then equalize to flat, it now sounds "accurate," but its imaging and transparency go away. Darned if you do, darned if you don't... The Class D "pro" amps I've heard sounded less musical and less accurate than any of the "audiophile" gear across the board. Boom |
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Post by audiobill on Jul 12, 2017 18:01:05 GMT -5
But, once again, what do they sound like, or is that beside the point?
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You buy Emotiva for "sounds awesome", not "just fine". 
