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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 10, 2017 8:50:53 GMT -5
Well... to start this off I just wanted to say hello to everyone, and that I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on here throughout the last week or so. I have been an audio enthusiast since I was 15, but was have never been able to make the leap into separates due the price tag. Well here we are 15 years later... i was out of town and walked into a showroom (wanted to see what all the goldenear hoopla was about... wow lol) and heard the MC-700 paired with an A-500. I went home and then couldn't get it out of my head... so a week later I again made the hour and a half trip back. So I bought the MC-700, but decided it was worth the extra $300 to step up to the A-5175, so I purchased it without hearing or seeing it. Unfortunately, they were out of stock on the MC-700, and as my timing is always terrible, I of course purchased it 3 days before their Emofest event and labor day weekend, followed by CEDIA the next week. So, it took them about a week and a half just to ship my the preamp, so I will not be receiving it until Tuesday.
My setup
I currently have the A-5175 being fed signal by the preouts on my Onkyo TX-SR806. This is not ideal, but is just a bandaid until i receive the MC-700. I have a Monster Power HTPS-7000 (no snickers please i got it super cheap on ebay) dedicated to supplying power to just the sound system. The speakers are my good ole fashioned Klipsch Reference 3 system from the early 2000s. I do not place a lot of stake in the interconnects and wiring... that said, I do try to stay away from the cheap stuff. So for me I have 5 individual Audioquest Red River RCA (1m long) interconnects (got a deal on them when I bought the emotivas) between the receiver and amplifier, a pair of (15ft long) Monster THX-1000 speaker cables (with upgraded banana jack ends) to my 2 front speakers, and Stinger (12ga) speaker wire round out the rears and center.
First Look
First off, its definitely a very solid and heavy unit for its size. I also do not have the bent cover that another poster (sorry I'll credit your name later when I look it up) commented on having, and the fit and finish on the unit I received was perfect. Connection is idiot proof, as it auto senses what the connected voltage is, and checks for channel shorts as well before powering on.
Finally Listening!
After powering it up for the first time, I promptly started powering my way through my usual audition material. The spaciousness of the sound is beautiful, and even though my speakers are high efficiency and very easy to drive, the extra power was still appreciated. My listening space is my livingroom which is about 2400cu.ft. with one wall being nearly completely open to the dining room, and I have not even come close to pushing the limits of the speakers with all channels driven. This amplifier definitely has ample headroom for all of my needs. In my listening it has characterized itself as being a very neutral to MAYBE slightly warm sound which is perfect for a speaker like mine that can get a bit harsh with something even a little bright sounding.
Ruh Roh Raggy!!!
Well all would be perfect if it weren't for this thing getting hot enough to fry an egg on. I watched a few movies and walked up to see how warm it was and i couldn't even put my hand on it. It was so hot that even the front panel was too warm to touch. The heat is mostly coming from the right side of the amplifier, so I have been in contact with emotiva to figure out what the issue is. I will keep this thread updated as it progresses. I have been using my bluetooth Weber igrill thermometer (it's what was handy) to measure and log external enclosure temperatures and will also post those findings. Since it is the right side of the amplifier getting hot, I will be switching the signal and speaker wires right to left and left to right repectively, to see if it is somehow a speaker load issue. I have also gone through and verified the windings between left and right speakers woofers and tweeters with a meter to see if i had any issues with any coil windings, but found none.
Conclusion
None yet... I am holding out judgement u til my heat issue is resolved. Even though it is getting super hot and I could just return it for a refund, I still prefer to work with Emotiva to come up with a solution. After hearing this amplifier in my system I do not want to let it go, it really does sound that good. I will post again Monday after doing my tests today and contacting them tomorrow. Then maybe a little more in depth review can take place without me being paranoid about it overheating.
Thanks for reading!
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Post by geebo on Sept 10, 2017 9:12:43 GMT -5
Welcome to the Lounge, jimbob. Sorry to hear of the heat issue but Emotiva will make things right for you. Keep us updated, please.
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Post by bpassman on Sept 10, 2017 21:08:54 GMT -5
Well, it might get warm...but it shouldn't get too hot to touch. Emotiva's support is great, so I'm sure they'll help you figure it out. When you get the MC700, let us know how you like it compared to your Onkyo,
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Post by garbulky on Sept 11, 2017 0:13:09 GMT -5
Your amp should not be getting too hot to touch. Though I don't have that particular amp, all of the Emo amps I've tried of that type runs very cool. The only hot amps I've felt are the older gen XPA-1, XPA-1 L series and to a slightly lesser extent the XPA-2. All the others have been quite cool to the touch and at worst very mildly warm.
So I think you have a problem of some sort.
BTW - do you have adequate venting?
I'm glad it's sounding good!
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 11, 2017 14:41:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies and to geebo for the first welcome reply. bpassman, I will definitely be sure to update this with a comparison between the Onkyo and the MC-700. garbulky, i have it sitting in a component stand with about 5" clearance to the shelf above it and the front and sides and most of the rear are all open air. It definitely has quite a bit of ventilation. I've read from others that emo amps typically run quite cool and customer service told me also that the heat sinks in this amplifier are quite substantial. I'm wondering to myself if maybe a couple of output transistors just aren't well coupled to the heatsink? They suggested I switch the right and left speakers to the other sides (in an attempt to rule out a load issue) and the right side was still the side that got hot. I'll update tomorrow night after I have time to try a couple things and have a chat with Emotiva. Thanks to all for your time and interest!
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Post by geebo on Sept 11, 2017 15:24:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies and to geebo for the first welcome reply. bpassman, I will definitely be sure to update this with a comparison between the Onkyo and the MC-700. garbulky, i have it sitting in a component stand with about 5" clearance to the shelf above it and the front and sides and most of the rear are all open air. It definitely has quite a bit of ventilation. I've read from others that emo amps typically run quite cool and customer service told me also that the heat sinks in this amplifier are quite substantial. I'm wondering to myself if maybe a couple of output transistors just aren't well coupled to the heatsink? They suggested I switch the right and left speakers to the other sides (in an attempt to rule out a load issue) and the right side was still the side that got hot. I'll update tomorrow night after I have time to try a couple things and have a chat with Emotiva. Thanks to all for your time and interest! It looks to me like there are three channels on the right side and two on the left. A little more heat on the right may be normal but it shouldn't be so hot that you can't touch it. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 11, 2017 15:46:55 GMT -5
The right side wouldn't happen to be the front left, centre and right by any chance? They are the most used channels and hence likely to make that area of the power amp work harder, more often.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on Sept 11, 2017 17:49:44 GMT -5
yes, i had to suppress a snicker at the purchase of a used Monster Power device.
But I'll skip that and try to be constructive. The surge protection in such devices Wears Out after repeated 'surges' or perhaps one large lightning strike. The problem with such a purchase on EPray is that you have
NO idea how the device had been treated by previous owner(s). You could have near-zero actual surge protection. Or it could be untouched. You'll never know and can't rely on whatever the seller says.
Good News? The active device, a MOV is beyond Dirt Cheap. 20$ will buy enough of 'em for a lifetime. The bad news? Best of luck liberating a schematic or part number or part specification from Monster. Even if you had such a part number / specification you'd need a pro to install. Maybe 1 hour of labor and good as new. Unless you're reasonablly handy with a soldering iron, have confidence in your ability and can make an order to DigiKey or some such.
If CNET is correct and the RF-3 has 98db sensitivity, you'll not make use of more than 5 watts per speaker anyway. even pretty loud.
If the amp gets warm with NO load or signal, chances are the BIAS to the output devices needs to be adjusted lower. Think of bias as a pre-load to the output devices.
You must do YOUR part, as well and have good airflow around the amp. sticking it away in a cabinet is a sure recipe for disaster. And a shorter lifespan as the device runs warmer than it should.
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 11, 2017 22:25:37 GMT -5
Leonski, I feel like you're pretty hung up on the power conditioner... you must have had this very frustrating discussion many times before lol. Well, long story short... I bought it (cheaply) because I wanted an isolation transformer, and this one came in a pretty box. I like the look and that it has the meter up front (which is undoubtably way out of calibration at this point), which adds the the esthetic of the component stand a lot more than just a 30 lb block of black steel and copper would. I didn't think about replacing the MOVs and that is a really good idea, and I'll probably do that once i get this all sorted out. Thats the type of tip that makes me want to post things in these forums. I've been working with electronics professionally for the last 11 years (automation/controls backround)... so I'm more than handy with a soldering iron, and that oddly sounds like a fun afternoon for a rainy day. But, for now I'm more concerned with this amp overheating. You may also be right about the bias, in fact they did mention that in the last conversation i had with them. I will definitley post an update tomorrow. Thanks for the posts and ideas!
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 11, 2017 22:56:51 GMT -5
Gary, sorry forgot to mention that I'm not sure and will have to ask them in terms of which channels go where. I have the wored as labeled but that doesnt tell me where they actually are internally.
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Post by leonski on Sept 11, 2017 23:35:40 GMT -5
Jimbob, don't know where you get the idea I'm 'hung up' on power conditioners. They ARE a good idea for many persons. I am NOT however, a fan of Monster. That's my real hangup. The person who bills himself as the 'head monster', one Noel Lee is a real piece of work and VERY prone to sue for little or no reason, and even to 'protect' nonexistent intellectual property. I'm not the only one who doesn't think he's a 'nice guy'. Monster stuff might be OK (well, HUGE markups?) but they have awful business practices. Sold this stuff for a while and commisssions on Monster stuff were quite high. Especially considering that essentially equal stuff could be had for better than 1/2 off the Monster Ask. Buying used Monster? A good way to save a bundle. www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-backI'm sold on power conditioning. I won't go into details, but the improvements were not quite subtle when I installed a Panamax in my system. I don't see mention of an isolation transformer in the '7000, but that's generally OK, too, My Panamax has a 400va Iso AND also will shut off all outlets if @voltages <95 and >135 vac. I DO see mention of dual Iso transformers in the MkII version. No capacity or details in the short blurb I read. A 1500va Iso Transformer good for power amps would weigh a BUNCH. The smallish 400va in my system is terrific for ALL digitial stuff, my DAC, PS3. A 1500 VA Plitron weighs nearly 28lb. That's from their 'medical' line of products. Let us all know if you pry the MOV specs out of Monster. And for someone with your capabilities? EASY, depending on how they are mounted. Probably mounted in 3 parallel groups at the power inlet. From Hot to Ground. Hot to Neutral and Neutral to Ground. You could easily even increase the surge capacity, space permitting. I worked as a tech in a semiconductor facility. Down to board level fixes. And did process technician work, running engineering experiments and keeping track of fab performance. I ended up as a metrology guy doing daily cals and keeping track of the performance control charts and organizing gauge R+R studies for ISO compliance. |
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 12, 2017 6:56:28 GMT -5
I looked around a bit, but i can't seem to find anywhere online what size the transformers are in this unit. Hopefully when I open it I'll see a VA rating somewhere. I do know there are two of them, so it wouldn't surprise me to see two undersized transformers in there. It is quite heavy though, and comes in at just a tad under 40lbs. It also has the low and high voltage shutdown feature like in your panamax, but i haven't programmed it yet... so it's still set to wherever the previous owner had it. I'll share the parts list of what I'm using when i order the components. I'm assuming, similar to other units I've worked on, you are referring the MOVs that are right next to the thermal fuses on the incoming power board? If memory serves, there was a set of 6 (3 sets of paralleled pairs) in that location on an old HTS-2500 Mkii I repaired for a friend of mine. And I completely agree on the pricing on these when they were new. There is no chance that I would have ever paid the $1,200 price tag for one new... but, i was able to get this one for $225 shipped on ebay. What I like about it is that it was about the same price as the transformer i was looking at, looks a lot cleaner, additionally offers surge protection, has voltage monitoring, and it adds addional switched outlets. This is handy for me because I run an LED bar behind my tv to reduce eye strain, and its easier to just tie it into the home theater's control circuit. Anyways, thanks for the additional insight! For now I'm off to another day exciting day at work, but I'll be back tonight with an update!
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 12, 2017 9:32:20 GMT -5
That response was exceptional - he blistered them with 6 "further" 's... Typical Kim Jong yell/intimidation tactics when someone's snake oil comes under scrutiny. It always happens as it's their only recourse to protect their $$. It happened here when that "upgrade" company owner came on to respond to criticisms of his offering - went straight to yelling at everyone. #1 sign you are dealing with snake oil when you see that behavior as logic and reason obviously can't be used with snake oil. |
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Post by alucard on Sept 12, 2017 12:01:46 GMT -5
My A-5175 got very hot too. From a 'cold start' it was very hot after hour of listening to music at moderate volume. After 1.5 hours it got a little hotter and started getting heavy distortion from the speakers. Turned off, let cool down, rinse and repeat with same results. I had no choice but to return it. Emo indicated it was likely running in class A mode only and getting hot enough to impact the internal components, causing distortion.
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Post by leonski on Sept 12, 2017 12:50:42 GMT -5
That response was exceptional - he blistered them with 6 "further" 's... Typical Kim Jong yell/intimidation tactics when someone's snake oil comes under scrutiny. It always happens as it's their only recourse to protect their $$. It happened here when that "upgrade" company owner came on to respond to criticisms of his offering - went straight to yelling at everyone. #1 sign you are dealing with snake oil when you see that behavior as logic and reason obviously can't be used with snake oil. Did you read the reply and understand that issue were FACTS not any form of snake oil? Monster basically said to BJC that 'you are infringing on our patents' to which BJC said 'prove it'. The patents were DESIGN patents, making no extraordinary electrical or performance claims. Monster was 'fishing'. Many (most?) small companies will 'fold' under such an onslaught, paying some royalty, rather than fighting in court. |
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 12, 2017 12:53:07 GMT -5
Yes, I'm referring to Monster's tactics; it's the classic behavior of snake oil sellers. The BJC letter was outstanding.
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 12, 2017 12:53:44 GMT -5
Alucard, thanks for sharing! That certainly doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy... I don't want to have to return it, but if I have those issues it will go back. I just hate to do it because it's such a nice performing amplifier for the money. Hopefully they can straighten it out so it doesn't come to that! I did hear some audible distortion the first time it ever got really really hot... which is why i went up and checked it in the first place. I have to ask, what did you buy after you returned it?
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Post by leonski on Sept 12, 2017 13:01:03 GMT -5
Yes, I'm referring to Monster's tactics; it's the classic behavior of snake oil sellers. The BJC letter was outstanding. My Bad. Misunderstood your reply: That kind of behavior (Monsters) and Huge markups are the reason I avoid them and 'Dis' them if possible. Buying one of their devices used, at a huge discount is probably the way to go, though other choices exist. The included Isolation transformers of the '7000 mk II are a good feature since so FEW power conditioners include such. |
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Post by alucard on Sept 12, 2017 13:10:32 GMT -5
Alucard, thanks for sharing! That certainly doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy... I don't want to have to return it, but if I have those issues it will go back. I just hate to do it because it's such a nice performing amplifier for the money. Hopefully they can straighten it out so it doesn't come to that! I did hear some audible distortion the first time it ever got really really hot... which is why i went up and checked it in the first place. I have to ask, what did you buy after you returned it? I got a replacement A-5175 but that one had speaker hum/buzz heard from listening position that the first one did not. The first one was dead quite up until it got hot. Returned the second one. This was a turning point for me. I sold off my processor, higher end cables, and squeezebox and picked up a Marantz SR6012 AVR. It does everything I need in one box and sounds good to me. Wish it had DIRAC rather than Audyssey, but I knew that going in. Maybe in the future i'll look at separates again, but right now it's too much of a headache. |
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Post by jimbob242011 on Sept 12, 2017 13:50:47 GMT -5
Now I'm really worried about it... I definitely don't want to go back to a receiver, and I really don't want to shell out another $800 to step up to the XPA-5 either. I sure hope this gets sorted out. Heat is bad and hum drives me insane! One of the main reasons that i finally went separates was to lower my noise floor, not increase it! My preamp will be in today and I'm going hook it up and hopefully get myself at least an evening of use (while monitoring temp). If no luck, the amplifier will be going back tomorrow. Unfortunately for me my dealer is an hour and a half away 😐...
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