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Post by drtrey3 on Sept 16, 2017 8:48:52 GMT -5
Well, it used to be wonderful advice for sound and still could be, especially with analog sources. A better turntable or cartridge is a huge step up the ladder of audio pleasure. Moving from a cheap ass Blu-ray to a top of the line Oppo, well, not so much. At least, that is how I view digital sources, that there is much less variability between consumer and audiophile offerings. In this situation, I believe that speaker upgrades would be very helpful, as would using the same brand of speakers.
Trey
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Post by kybourbon on Sept 16, 2017 10:27:06 GMT -5
I think both are very important.
Also the quality of the recording and the production of the recording are very important.
Feel free to argue. I'm fine with that.
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Post by leonski on Sept 16, 2017 13:44:31 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys, but I start with the Source. Now, for movies, I care less than when listening to music. With my setup, admitedly not the 'best', I can clearly hear the difference between MP3 files and Lossless. This is off my computer (older iMac) using some Grado headphones. And thinking that I was 'thinking' I heard differences, I sat a neighbor down and asked them to click on one file or another. I set it up so the files were in PAIRS, one of each. The preference was ALWAYS for the Lossless file. I was out of the room when they listened to as many tracks as they wished. This was an Off-The-Top call from non-audiophiles YOU try it, after making 2 files from a good CD. Troll? Nope. Take your 10K$ B&W Diamonds and plug 'em thru a mediocre system in a poor room and you've got Mediocre sound. Don't get me started on 'the finishing touch' which is the room / setup. Great gear, no matter WHAT will sound poor in a poor room while a middle of the road system like mine will sound much better after careful setup and a room in which, frankly, I got LUCKY. Was 'digital' the BIG break thru? I have a (very) first generation CD player which is 14bit, 4x oversampling. A Philips CD-100 which was the 2nd player on sale in the USA, a Sony being first. The SONY got horrible reviews and lasted only a few months before being replaced by a substantially changed and better model. My Magnevox (Philips) is still well regarded as an 'artifact' from the earliest days. The REAL digital fringe will no longer listen to 16bit / 44KHz files. Nope! 24 bit at 192KHz would now appear to be the norm. I don't know what happened to SACD and DVDAudio. The better vinyl based systems I hear at shows and demos are Still very satisfying. At least 2 people I know have a vinyl mix in their system and Both sound wonderful. And for Kybourbon? Yes, 'start material' is very important. So, in any comparison, use the best. But this isn't always so easy. I have the FIRST issue of Pink Floyd's DSOM on CD. Not the same as the vinyl or any of the several re-masters / re-issues which have come down over the years. And I would exclude ANY album or material associated with 'The Loudness Wars'. Some reissues have simply been destroyed in the process. dr.loudness-war.infoI count OVER 20 versions of the Pink Floyd DSOM album which have various ratings on the database site. |
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Post by Jim on Sept 16, 2017 14:10:47 GMT -5
I'm just going to guess that anyone who says "source is very important" probably already has speakers that are excellent. If you're asking about the signal chain and amp... you're already past crap speakers, just because the speakers are right in front of you the entire time.
I've never heard of anyone saying, gee, my speakers sound terrible, I'm going to upgrade my source first.
I might not make any friends by saying it, but I would say speakers make the largest difference followed by amp (it determines the bulk of distortion, clipping, dynamics, max volume) and finally source. I'm not negating the importance of source - but the difference between a cheese grade 50W AVR amp circuit versus a real amplifier is huge. And the difference between $100 speakers and something like the T2 isn't even describable.
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Post by leonski on Sept 16, 2017 14:35:04 GMT -5
MOST speakers will play 'clearly' if not clipped or fed junk. Even my No-Name 4" 2-way mounted high up in the garage are fine with 5 or 6 watts per and fed from
an iPod.
That's why I firmly believe in Source First.
Also? I find it a crack-up that someone will invest a bunch of $$$ in surround sound, usually starting with 5 thru 12 speakers THAN complain about the sound.
If the same $$$ had been spent on a PAIR of good full-range speakers or maybe add a sub? (even the 500$ HSU Research) I don't know that we'd be having that
chat.
In that sense, I'll agree with JIM. 2 large worth of surround sound speakers, the AV receiver and all the rest could easily be replaced by a substantial Mid-Fi STEREO
with sub. Call it 2.1
And I'll bet that 3/4 of all HT setups are some kind of Kluge. Non-optimal setups or in rooms which are too small or the wrong shape for such systems. Satisfying the Spousal Unit is
admirable. And ensures peace in the house, but is NOT the strategy for proper setup. Envy the person with a proper space to do with as he pleases.
Persons who go thru Endless 'upgrade cycles' need to learn how to build a lasting and pleasing system.
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Post by kybourbon on Sept 16, 2017 16:31:03 GMT -5
Full disclosure... My 2.2 system is a HTPC running J.River with SACD rips, high bitrate FLAC, etc from a NAS ---> Marantz pre-amp ---> Emotiva XPA-2 ---> Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 + dual Rhythmik F15HP (sealed).
I can definitely tell a difference when I'm using Tidal or Google music for example.
To each their own.
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 16, 2017 17:08:08 GMT -5
I might not make any friends by saying it, but I would say speakers make the largest difference followed by amp (it determines the bulk of distortion, clipping, dynamics, max volume) I would agree with this IF the person doesn't already have an amp and is using an AVR. If they already have an amp, than I would say: 1. Speakers 2. Pre/pro 3. Amp |
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Post by musicfan on Sept 16, 2017 17:43:19 GMT -5
i think those that are saying source first are missing the point I was making.
yes crappy source MATERIAL (how it is recorded matters a ton and compressed matters) but what I was referring to was upgrading a pre-pro or DAC over speakers is assinine
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Post by Jim on Sept 16, 2017 20:33:52 GMT -5
I might not make any friends by saying it, but I would say speakers make the largest difference followed by amp (it determines the bulk of distortion, clipping, dynamics, max volume) I would agree with this IF the person doesn't already have an amp and is using an AVR. If they already have an amp, than I would say: 1. Speakers 2. Pre/pro 3. Amp I agree with ya. |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 16, 2017 21:39:24 GMT -5
I would agree with this IF the person doesn't already have an amp and is using an AVR. If they already have an amp, than I would say: 1. Speakers 2. Pre/pro 3. Amp I agree with ya. Theres a tree in the woods know one is seeing, The room! and its treatments, or lack of
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Post by leonski on Sept 16, 2017 23:59:16 GMT -5
Theres a tree in the woods know one is seeing, The room! and its treatments, or lack of
Done, on page one this thread: I even linked a setup guide for surround sound speakers. OP claims complete freedom so no compromise to setup, you'd hope. |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 17, 2017 0:34:33 GMT -5
Theres a tree in the woods know one is seeing, The room! and its treatments, or lack of
Done, on page one this thread: I even linked a setup guide for surround sound speakers. OP claims complete freedom so no compromise to setup, you'd hope. Yep, but I thought it belonged somewhere in the pecking order, 1,2 or 3 |
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Post by leonski on Sept 17, 2017 2:18:47 GMT -5
Done, on page one this thread: I even linked a setup guide for surround sound speakers. OP claims complete freedom so no compromise to setup, you'd hope. Yep, but I thought it belonged somewhere in the pecking order, 1,2 or 3 AGREED: Maybe even #2, right behind the PreNuptual with the wife, when it comes to Decor VS Sound. The room 'Trumps' even the Best system. Good Room? Good System? = Good sound, no question. Poor Room? Good System? = Mediocre sound. And throwing more money at a poor room, generally won't help. So Yep, Gotta agree. |
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Post by Jim on Sept 17, 2017 9:47:51 GMT -5
Theres a tree in the woods know one is seeing, The room! and its treatments, or lack of
View AttachmentNo... no...Room can't be that important! No, see, you don't treat the room, just move your gear to a room that's acoustically better!  I don't know where room falls in the pecking order. No amount of money can make up for room acoustics (normally due to lack of treatments). I think most bad rooms are fixable. But.. room treatments are often completely ignored... |
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Post by vneal on Sept 17, 2017 10:11:33 GMT -5
I'm just going to guess that anyone who says "source is very important" probably already has speakers that are excellent. If you're asking about the signal chain and amp... you're already past crap speakers, just because the speakers are right in front of you the entire time. I've never heard of anyone saying, gee, my speakers sound terrible, I'm going to upgrade my source first. I might not make any friends by saying it, but I would say speakers make the largest difference followed by amp (it determines the bulk of distortion, clipping, dynamics, max volume) and finally source. I'm not negating the importance of source - but the difference between a cheese grade 50W AVR amp circuit versus a real amplifier is huge. And the difference between $100 speakers and something like the T2 isn't even describable. agreed |
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Post by vneal on Sept 17, 2017 10:14:49 GMT -5
MY top five
1-speakers
2-room & room treatment
3-amplification
4-preamp/processor
5-source
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 17, 2017 11:39:38 GMT -5
Important to note regarding loudspeakers and source material.....
There's nothing like having the finest source material to hear the best from the loudspeakers.
That being said, poor recordings played on the finest loudspeakers based on their accuracy and flat response are going to sound pretty BAD.
The other problem is that some REALLY GREAT music out there unfortunately had the recording engineers asleep at the switch during the session.
Bill
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Post by leonski on Sept 17, 2017 13:34:58 GMT -5
Important to note regarding loudspeakers and source material..... There's nothing like having the finest source material to hear the best from the loudspeakers. That being said, poor recordings played on the finest loudspeakers based on their accuracy and flat response are going to sound pretty BAD. The other problem is that some REALLY GREAT music out there unfortunately had the recording engineers asleep at the switch during the session. Bill You must compare the Best with the Best. I've got a Bette Midler album (CD) that sounds awful. Some kind of background distortion which renders it almost unlistenable. Compare that to something Very Well recorded? And try to reference a system using those 2 recordings? NoCanDo. If you are REALLY curious about 'sleeping recording engineers' which isn't quite right, than Google 'Loudness Wars'. My DSOM (DarkSideoftheMoon) has been issued OVER 20 times in Europe, Asia and the Americas. I have what might be the Original CD issue here in the USA and it is excellent. Once you go BACK to the master tapes to 're-do' it is all up in the air and you get different results. www.npr.org/2009/12/31/122114058/the-loudness-wars-why-music-sounds-worseI'm linking the NPR article, so nobody can claim I'm being prejudiced. I think they are a fair assessment, but that's just me. As for speakers? Sure you HEAR what they do. So? Why do people buy so many speakers they DO NOT like? I did. once. I had some Fisher Speakers which actually sounded better when I destroyed the midrange and replaced it with a 10ohm / 10watt resistor. I was glad to see 'em go. The key is to listen to a lot of speakers and get your priorities in order. Do NOT listen to some salesman Tell you what to listen for while you are listening to them. Listen for yourself. And of course? Bring a half dozen Reference Discs which you know very well, indeed. The dumbest question is when somebody asks if Speaker X is an 'upgrade' to Speaker Y? What the heck does that mean? And how would I or anybody know? Some days I still regret selling my Magnepan MG-1s which were 25 years old at the time. They did so much really well, warts and all. The replacements being MG1.6s do a lot of things better but like your first kiss, you never forget your first Planars. But that's just ME. I don't mind if you are a fan of those tall, skinny HT speakers. Just don't ask if some replacement for them are really an 'upgrade' or not. Somebody made some remarks about 'fixing' the room? Sure. But some rooms? For HT use you have incredible hurdles ranging from running cables and wiring to the simple Shape of the room being too regular and inducing standing waves which are very difficult to treat without major work. And Spousal Acceptance. A room 12x24 with an 8 foot ceiling might sppear to be good, but those dimensions give me pause. L/W are 2x? L is 3x height? W is 1 1/2 of height? Best of luck. At some point it might simply be easier to Get Rich and have All-New construction done with the help of a consultant to avoid the largest / worst pitfalls. 2 other things. Quit reading reviews and basing purchasing decisions ON them. Reviewers are people, too and have likes and dislikes. I can use reviews to narrow my search, maybe, but not make up my mind. Second? Get out and listen to more stuff. At some point it'll click and your path forward will be eased. Rant Over: |
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Post by hlevinson on Sept 17, 2017 19:35:51 GMT -5
and you really can not drive 4ohm speakers with even the most high end receivers. I have a Sony ES5300 and I never even tried to use it with my polk lsi 15,s and lsic center. Got an XPA5 gen 1, and I than was configured properly. I have had various KEF Reference speakers (104/2, 105/3 and Reference 4) over the years and all of them are 4 ohm loads. I have had them hooked up to high end AVRs (Onkyo, Yamaha or Denon) and while they can work half way decent. To be honest, probably good enough for most people if not listening at reference levels. But I did always feel that I was not getting 100% out of the KEFs (I do tend to listen to them pretty loud). Going to separates did open up the sound stage a bit. I also do appreciate your profile name and I should change mine to CLK55AMG (2005 Cabriolet)  |
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Post by ottaone on Sept 17, 2017 22:30:47 GMT -5
While we're trying to help the OP, we certainly don't want any analysis paralysis. We want him to enjoy his HT system, so to that end, let's not nitpick on how to order the top five factors for good sound. Bottom line: follow your gut (or your ear) and appreciate what you have. Cheers!
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