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Post by copperband on Nov 29, 2017 11:37:03 GMT -5
thanks again! I will continue to use my separate SACD player to play SACD. Originally I thought it would be good for the X800 to play everything.
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 29, 2017 14:55:26 GMT -5
Before i ordered mine I had a play with one and I could definitely change the PCM output from 24/96 to 24/192 or vice versa. You definitely can change the “Digital Out” sampling frequency to one of three options (48, 96 or 192kHz), but that applies only to the coax output. Unfortunately, due to digital copyright law, SACDs (whether the DSD data is converted to PCM or not) must be either transported (digitally) via HDMI or as analog directly from the source component. Sorry, but there’s no way around this....  I must be missing something here ........... I can listen to a 5.1 SACD via toslink or coax at 48, 96 or 192 but I can only listen to a 5.1 SACD via HDMI at 176.4 (ie; 44.1 X 4). What's the difference, surely they would sound the same? I can't think of an SACD, certainly none that I own, that would lose anything by not using HDMI. Are there Atmos/ DTSX SACD's? Hang on .................. it outputs movie audio at 24, 96 or 192 via HDMI ie; something the UMC-1 can handle, yet it only outputs SACD audio at 176.4 via HDMI ie; something that the UMC-1 can't handle. That's a weird decision by Sony, or it's hardware limited, the DSD to PCM conversion only does 176.4. Cheers Gary |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 29, 2017 16:46:09 GMT -5
You definitely can change the “Digital Out” sampling frequency to one of three options (48, 96 or 192kHz), but that applies only to the coax output. Unfortunately, due to digital copyright law, SACDs (whether the DSD data is converted to PCM or not) must be either transported (digitally) via HDMI or as analog directly from the source component. Sorry, but there’s no way around this.... I must be missing something here ........... I can listen to a 5.1 SACD via toslink or coax at 48, 96 or 192 but I can only listen to a 5.1 SACD via HDMI at 176.4 (ie; 44.1 X 4). What's the difference, surely they would sound the same? I can't think of an SACD, certainly none that I own, that would lose anything by not using HDMI. Are there Atmos/ DTSX SACD's? Hang on .................. it outputs movie audio at 24, 96 or 192 via HDMI ie; something the UMC-1 can handle, yet it only outputs SACD audio at 176.4 via HDMI ie; something that the UMC-1 can't handle. That's a weird decision by Sony, or it's hardware limited, the DSD to PCM conversion only does 176.4. Cheers Gary That's Sony for you Gary. It has been acknowledge, other than by the most discerning goldenears, that anything above 24bit/88.2kHz (or 96kHz) is overkill. However, most AVRs or AVPs wouldn't have a problem receiving 176.4kHz. I also have to say that I might be wrong about the UMC-1 not supporting 176.4kHz. I'm now thinking it might have been my old XDA-2 that had issues with that sampling frequency (via USB). Are you saying your UMC-200 reports 24/176.4, but you get no sound...? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 29, 2017 18:18:33 GMT -5
I must be missing something here ........... I can listen to a 5.1 SACD via toslink or coax at 48, 96 or 192 but I can only listen to a 5.1 SACD via HDMI at 176.4 (ie; 44.1 X 4). What's the difference, surely they would sound the same? I can't think of an SACD, certainly none that I own, that would lose anything by not using HDMI. Are there Atmos/ DTSX SACD's? Hang on .................. it outputs movie audio at 24, 96 or 192 via HDMI ie; something the UMC-1 can handle, yet it only outputs SACD audio at 176.4 via HDMI ie; something that the UMC-1 can't handle. That's a weird decision by Sony, or it's hardware limited, the DSD to PCM conversion only does 176.4. That's Sony for you Gary. It has been acknowledge, other than by the most discerning goldenears, that anything above 24bit/88.2kHz (or 96kHz) is overkill. However, most AVRs or AVPs wouldn't have a problem receiving 176.4kHz. I also have to say that I might be wrong about the UMC-1 not supporting 176.4kHz. I'm now thinking it might have been my old XDA-2 that had issues with that sampling frequency (via USB). Are you saying your UMC-200 reports 24/176.4, but you get no sound...? I haven't received my X800 yet, it's due today, so no testing as yet. But I did spend quite a bit of time in the showroom running through the set up menu. Sure surprised the sales guys, they stood around and watched what I was checking, they'd (as usual) just just plugged it in to a TV and turned it on. As per my post above I did note the ability to change to/from 48, 96 or 192 but I don't recall if it was for HDMI or Digital Coax output, hence my question. If I can play SACD's via the UMC-200 at 48/96/192 using the Digital Coax input then I'm OK. I don't really care about not being able to play SACD's via HDMI as there's no sound quality difference for the SACD's that I own. As for the UMC-200 not handling 176, I am relying on Keith's post; It is true that the UMC-200 DOES NOT support 176k digital audio. To clarify, I have to return the Oppo 203 that I currently have on loan as my cousin is home from 6 months of sailing around the pacific. So I need a replacement, 203's are $A979 here and X800's are $A378. With my 25% UFL I can use the $A600 saved to buy an MC-700. As far as I can tell the MC-700 doesn't handle 176 either, so it's important that I confirm that the X800 can output from SACD's at 48/96/192 via Digital Coax. Looks like some more in store confirmation before I pick up the X800. Cheers Gary |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 30, 2017 11:33:24 GMT -5
That's right Gary Cook , it was the UMC-200 (I had one too prior to the XMC-1). I believe they both (UMC-200 and XDA-2) had issues with 176.4. Those problems were centered around the Cirrus Logic chips. I can't clearly recall if the UMC-1 had the same issues or not, but I believe it did. If it helps you, I can pull out a DC-1 and run a coax to it from my X800, tinker with the settings and see what happens. It might save you a trip to your local dealer...  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 30, 2017 19:43:16 GMT -5
That's right Gary Cook , it was the UMC-200 (I had one too prior to the XMC-1). I believe they both (UMC-200 and XDA-2) had issues with 176.4. Those problems were centered around the Cirrus Logic chips. I can't clearly recall if the UMC-1 had the same issues or not, but I believe it did. If it helps you, I can pull out a DC-1 and run a coax to it from my X800, tinker with the settings and see what happens. It might save you a trip to your local dealer... Gotta go to the local dealer to pick it up, so I'll check it out before I hand over the plastic, thanks for the offer. Cheers Gary |
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Post by copperband on Nov 30, 2017 21:40:48 GMT -5
I kind of got lost...
Is it still true that SACD won't play when connecting X800 to UMC-1 via hdmi? And you are saying coax connection(X800 & UMC-1) will work for SACD?
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 30, 2017 22:04:24 GMT -5
I kind of got lost... Is it still true that SACD won't play when connecting X800 to UMC-1 via hdmi? And you are saying coax connection(X800 & UMC-1) will work for SACD? I just spent a few minutes playing with the menu settings in the shop and in the Audio Settings Menu I set; 1. The Digital Auto Output to PCM 2. The DSD Output Mode to Off 3. The 48/96/192 PCM (for the Digital Output) to 48 On the Music Settings menu I set; 1. SACD Layer to SACD 2. SACD Channel to Stereo (as they only had the FL and FR speakers connected) It then plays from the coax digital output SACD audio at PCM 48 hz which my UMC-200 will handle (it will also handle 96 and 192). That's on a Yamaha AVR that they had in the shop, I'll test it on the UMC-200 when I get home tonight. To answer your question, it appears that "yes" it will play SACD's via the coax digital output that the UMC-1 input should be able to handle. To clarify, I couldn't find anywhere in the Menu system where it would let me change the HDMI Output to any other frequency (there is no 48/96/192 PCM for the HDMI Output). So it just defaults to whatever Sony chose, what seems to be 176.4, which my UMC-200 won't handle, nor will the UMC-1. Cheers Gary |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 30, 2017 22:23:13 GMT -5
I kind of got lost... Is it still true that SACD won't play when connecting X800 to UMC-1 via hdmi? And you are saying coax connection(X800 & UMC-1) will work for SACD? Native DSD is definitely not supported. Support for PCM could be “if” the UMC-1 supports 24bit/176.4kHz (Sony’s choice of sampling frequency) via HDMI. The UMC-200 definitely does not (and I don’t believe the UMC-1 did either) due to a problem within the Cirrus Logic chips used in the UMC series processors. You will have to try it yourself and confirm. To do this, confirm the X800 audio settings are correct (Digital Audio Output = Auto / DSD Output Mode = Auto). Select the HDMI input on your UMC-1 that the X800 is connected to and play a standard ( not Hybrid) SACD. The X800 should detect that the UMC-1 does not support native DSD and automatically convert it to PCM. If you get no audio, then the UMC-1 does not support 24/176.4 PCM. Per the licensing agreements associated with SACD, the data stream can only be passed through an encrypted connection (HDMI). I do not know if this has ever changed or if it has become more flexible over the years, but I doubt it. The X800 does have the ability to scale the sampling frequency of data passed through its coaxial output, but I have the feeling that the DRM flag will prevent this. Gary will need to confirm this for sure. Hope this clarifies... EDIT: I see Gary has already confirmed above and will report his further findings later...  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 2, 2017 14:27:44 GMT -5
So this morning I finally had time to pick up the X800 and install it in my system. Video is superb, looks really great, albeit with only one movie test so far, Wonder Woman. Sound though, that has me totally confused, not matter which way I connect it to the UMC-200 (via HDM2 or via ARC from the TV) it displays PCM 48hz, FL, FR, C, SR, SL and LFE. There are then only 2 Modes available, Direct or All Stereo. I have tried both the 4K and 2K discs, which are labelled DTS-HD Master Audio. Which when using the previous Panasonic Blu Ray player the UMC-200 displayed when playing Wonder Woman. Despite changing all of the AUDIO settings on X800, in many combinations, I still get the same result.
I have not experienced PCM 48 hz multii channel being displayed previously, from what I understand that means the X800 is doing the decoding not the UMC-200. Whether that is better or not, sound quality wise, I don't know. More listening required.
Later on last night I had time to try the SACD and it works, the screen (on the TV) displays DSD 2.8 mhz, which shows the rate at the X800. Whilst, via the digital coax input, the UMC-200 shows PCM 48 kHz. I have tried setting the output to 96 and 192 hz but the UMC-200 still displays 48 hz, so I'll do some more investigating today. Nonetheless SACD's can be played using the X800 with output suitable for PCM capable processors ie; DSD decoding is not required.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 2, 2017 17:23:01 GMT -5
So this morning I finally had time to pick up the X800 and install it in my system. Video is superb, looks really great, albeit with only one movie test so far, Wonder Woman. Sound though, that has me totally confused, not matter which way I connect it to the UMC-200 (via HDM2 or via ARC from the TV) it displays PCM 48hz, FL, FR, C, SR, SL and LFE. There are then only 2 Modes available, Direct or All Stereo. I have tried both the 4K and 2K discs, which are labelled DTS-HD Master Audio. Which when using the previous Panasonic Blu Ray player the UMC-200 displayed when playing Wonder Woman. Despite changing all of the AUDIO settings on X800, in many combinations, I still get the same result. I have not experienced PCM 48 hz multii channel being displayed previously, from what I understand that means the X800 is doing the decoding not the UMC-200. Whether that is better or not, sound quality wise, I don't know. More listening required.... Gary... I’m assuming your sending video directly to your TV and audio to your UMC-200 using both HDMI outputs from the X800. Go to Setup > System Settings > HDMI Audio Output and make sure you have HDMI 2 selected. Also, under “Audio Settings”, make sure “Digital Audio Output” is set to “Auto” (which I’m sure you’ve already done this) and “BD Audio MIX Setting” is “Off”. If none of this works, as a final thought, try turning “DSD Output Mode” to “Off” and see what happens... |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 2, 2017 18:14:56 GMT -5
So this morning I finally had time to pick up the X800 and install it in my system. Video is superb, looks really great, albeit with only one movie test so far, Wonder Woman. Sound though, that has me totally confused, not matter which way I connect it to the UMC-200 (via HDM2 or via ARC from the TV) it displays PCM 48hz, FL, FR, C, SR, SL and LFE. There are then only 2 Modes available, Direct or All Stereo. I have tried both the 4K and 2K discs, which are labelled DTS-HD Master Audio. Which when using the previous Panasonic Blu Ray player the UMC-200 displayed when playing Wonder Woman. Despite changing all of the AUDIO settings on X800, in many combinations, I still get the same result. I have not experienced PCM 48 hz multii channel being displayed previously, from what I understand that means the X800 is doing the decoding not the UMC-200. Whether that is better or not, sound quality wise, I don't know. More listening required.... Gary... I’m assuming your sending video directly to your TV and audio to your UMC-200 using both HDMI outputs from the X800. Go to Setup > System Settings > HDMI Audio Output and make sure you have HDMI 2 selected. Yep, that's how I have it set. Yep, that's also how I have it set. It seems to only affect the digital coax out (not the HDMI out). Shouldn't make any difference to a 4K movie, but yep tried that anyway. I thought I had tried all of the combinations, must have missed this one  I had tried it set to Off but obviously not with the above settings. It seems as though that was trick combination, as it now works and the UMC-200 shows the appropriate audio format (Dolby True HD for this movie). It would be nice if the manual not only described what each setting does (for example turns it on or off, wow, who would have guessed that's what On and Off mean) but what the effects are (like ON means that AVRs/ processors without DSD decoding will be sent PCM already decoded). Would have been nice to know  Thank you, no more playing with endless menu options, it's movie watching time.  Cheers Gary |
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Post by copperband on Dec 6, 2017 21:58:28 GMT -5
So this morning I finally had time to pick up the X800 and install it in my system. Video is superb, looks really great, albeit with only one movie test so far, Wonder Woman. Sound though, that has me totally confused, not matter which way I connect it to the UMC-200 (via HDM2 or via ARC from the TV) it displays PCM 48hz, FL, FR, C, SR, SL and LFE. There are then only 2 Modes available, Direct or All Stereo. I have tried both the 4K and 2K discs, which are labelled DTS-HD Master Audio. Which when using the previous Panasonic Blu Ray player the UMC-200 displayed when playing Wonder Woman. Despite changing all of the AUDIO settings on X800, in many combinations, I still get the same result. I have not experienced PCM 48 hz multii channel being displayed previously, from what I understand that means the X800 is doing the decoding not the UMC-200. Whether that is better or not, sound quality wise, I don't know. More listening required. Later on last night I had time to try the SACD and it works, the screen (on the TV) displays DSD 2.8 mhz, which shows the rate at the X800. Whilst, via the digital coax input, the UMC-200 shows PCM 48 kHz. I have tried setting the output to 96 and 192 hz but the UMC-200 still displays 48 hz, so I'll do some more investigating today. Nonetheless SACD's can be played using the X800 with output suitable for PCM capable processors ie; DSD decoding is not required. Cheers Gary Gary, when you said SACD works do you mean using hdmi or coax output, or both output works for your UMC 200? |
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Post by copperband on Dec 6, 2017 22:03:56 GMT -5
while watching movie, press options on the remote, video settings/picture quality mode, how do I decide which one to use? don't see instructions on the manual on this one
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Post by copperband on Dec 6, 2017 22:35:35 GMT -5
when playing 4k disc, pressing display button shows 4K/24p, it is 4K/50p when playing blu ray disc. What is P stands for here? Finally got the UK version of Planet Earth II including the blu ray discs!
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stiehl11
Emo VIPs 
Give me available light!
Posts: 7,269
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Post by stiehl11 on Dec 6, 2017 23:06:52 GMT -5
when playing 4k disc, pressing display button shows 4K/24p, it is 4K/50p when playing blu ray disc. What is P stands for here? Finally got the UK version of Planet Earth II including the blu ray discs! I've always thought "P" stands for progressive versus interlaced scanning. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 7, 2017 0:23:12 GMT -5
So this morning I finally had time to pick up the X800 and install it in my system. Video is superb, looks really great, albeit with only one movie test so far, Wonder Woman. Sound though, that has me totally confused, not matter which way I connect it to the UMC-200 (via HDM2 or via ARC from the TV) it displays PCM 48hz, FL, FR, C, SR, SL and LFE. There are then only 2 Modes available, Direct or All Stereo. I have tried both the 4K and 2K discs, which are labelled DTS-HD Master Audio. Which when using the previous Panasonic Blu Ray player the UMC-200 displayed when playing Wonder Woman. Despite changing all of the AUDIO settings on X800, in many combinations, I still get the same result. I have not experienced PCM 48 hz multii channel being displayed previously, from what I understand that means the X800 is doing the decoding not the UMC-200. Whether that is better or not, sound quality wise, I don't know. More listening required. Later on last night I had time to try the SACD and it works, the screen (on the TV) displays DSD 2.8 mhz, which shows the rate at the X800. Whilst, via the digital coax input, the UMC-200 shows PCM 48 kHz. I have tried setting the output to 96 and 192 hz but the UMC-200 still displays 48 hz, so I'll do some more investigating today. Nonetheless SACD's can be played using the X800 with output suitable for PCM capable processors ie; DSD decoding is not required. Gary, when you said SACD works do you mean using hdmi or coax output, or both output works for your UMC 200? As posted, digital coax. Cheers Gary |
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Post by copperband on Dec 11, 2017 23:08:57 GMT -5
when I play a "non 4K" disc on this player, the upscale function will "automatically" upscale the video resolution to 4K, right? For example a blu ray disc.
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Post by copperband on Jan 30, 2018 15:31:31 GMT -5
this unit starts to have more problems like freeze, remote does not work...must unplug to restart/reboot to correct the issues.
Today it won't send bit stream lossless audio codec like DTS HD Master 5.1 to UMC-1?
It works a few weeks ago when I watched the same disc...
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 30, 2018 17:36:01 GMT -5
this unit starts to have more problems like freeze, remote does not work...must unplug to restart/reboot to correct the issues. Today it won't send bit stream lossless audio codec like DTS HD Master 5.1 to UMC-1? It works a few weeks ago when I watched the same disc... Check the "Settings", for sending DTS HD Master 5.1 to my UMC-200 it needs to be on "Auto", not "PCM". "Auto" enables 2 way communication and so the UMC-200 can tell the X800 that it can decode DTS HD Master 5.1. Whereas if it's set on "PCM" it's 1 way communication so the X800 can't "hear" the UMC-200. Cheers Gary |
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