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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 1, 2017 0:22:11 GMT -5
Hhmm ... maybe ... but ...
Including Emotiva's lost time and money, is mine. Reviews are everything, but they're a help in terms of knowing what you may like/want to spend money on/etc. And that's also why Audio Shows are somewhat useful.
In the end of the day, my feeling about the new Emotiva Gen3 Amplifiers is that it's a random Crap Shoot, and I don't want to waste anyone's time or money on that.
So maybe I need to become an Audio Reviewer? But I really don't have the background for that either ...
Casey
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Post by leonski on Dec 1, 2017 2:16:50 GMT -5
Just an Opinion, but I tend to rate audio shows much higher than written reviews.
What do you know about the reviewer and what he or she 'values'? I've seen wacky pairings of a sub-1000$ piece with a MegaBuck front end and speakers.
Not something you'd really EVER see.
Reviews are rarely 'bad', either. Reviewers seem to try to find something to like. Anything. Even the measured stuff is advisory, at best, even from speakers.
It's frequently difficult to connect a measurement with what is heard.
With the show environement, I'll admit that they are mostly make-do rooms. But you DO hear what the demonstarator considers the best or at least a real good pairing.
I've been alternately impressed and depressed. But at least I was able to HEAR stuff and eliminate stuff based on hearing, seeing and examination.
One thing reviews CAN do is 'build a good press kit' for a given piece.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 1, 2017 2:32:57 GMT -5
I agree. I guess I'll have to wait for the next round of shows to come through town ...
Casey
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Post by garbulky on Dec 1, 2017 10:54:17 GMT -5
Casey Leedom : I think that if you were truly interested in the amp line you would have bought one by gen 2. The only (obvious) thing other than design that gen 3 has is a higher rated power supply - but then again so did the XPR. The gen 3 is just a curiosity for me at this point. I'll wait till either Emotiva gets its head back on straight regarding its switching PS. Or if they transition to switching, then I'll just wait for the replacement company that is sure to come to occupy the niche of cheap heavy iron that Emotiva seems keen on leaving open to the competition. Heck people are looking at Schiit's comparatively lower powered amps with their toroids. Emotiva should be completely dominating the amp market. I don't know what they are doing right now. The balanced MB modules will put a little bit of competition back in Emotiva's square. But it's still missing the torroids, the class A, and the capacitance of the old gen. They are even deciding to make what is arguably one of the best sounding DACs I have heard - the DC-1 use a switcher. Was it really that profitable to switch? I'm still not sure if Emotiva knows what they have with the very good DC-1. Same goes for their powered monitor line that is soon to have a switching unit.
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 1, 2017 12:19:38 GMT -5
... I'll wait till either Emotiva gets its head back on straight regarding its switching PS. Or if they transition to switching, then I'll just wait for the replacement company that is sure to come to occupy the niche of cheap heavy iron that Emotiva seems keen on leaving open to the competition.I believe Monoprice has already done this with their Monolith amps. Semi-powerful, transparent, exceedingly affordable and they're made right here in the good ole USA by ATI. And... they're getting excellent reviews (and awards) from the "major" audio press. I've not heard one, but to me, that's a grand slam...  |
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 1, 2017 12:28:48 GMT -5
I highly doubt if Emo swaps out the switching power supply for a torroid, the Gen 3 would sound any different.
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 1, 2017 12:29:11 GMT -5
I'm with Garbulky on this. I try to keep computers and their damn power supplies away from my sensitive electronics so I sure a hell don't want these things built into my audio pieces. Emotiva is clouding up the one clear audiophile component they had a firm grip on - amplifiers. I won't accept any arguments on this issue, I want toroidal transformer power supplies period. And I don't want any even noisier Class D designs either.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 1, 2017 12:42:37 GMT -5
Casey Leedom : I think that if you were truly interested in the amp line you would have bought one by gen 2. Ah, but you're forgetting two things: - Despite being an "audiophile", I'm cheap.
 - The MPS-1 was more than good enough for my old Vandersteen 2Ce Speakers. My relatively new Legacy Audio Focus SEs are far more revealing.
I don't think that it's a given that Switching Power Supplies are a Bad Thing™. The Hypex Ncore technology developed by Bruno Putzeys has taken the audio world by storm with many very good reviews — both professional and end user. And there are other Class D Amplifier designs which have also broken the mold and gotten reviewers to take another look at that design class which had been looked down upon. Bruno's designs in particular use an enormous amount of Control System Negative Feedback in order to get as close as possible to the ideal "straight wire with gain" that a "colorless" amplifier should strive to attain. His amplifiers are constantly measuring the output and correcting for non-linearities. Other designers of Linear Power Supplies like Nelson Pass eschew all Negative Feedback, but in order to do that they need to over-design the capacity of the resulting amplifier designs in order to stay well within the the capacity of such Open Loop designs to stay linear. Basically, I think that we're looking at a whole new world in terms of high-end amplifier designs that are coming on line and I think we should keep our minds open to the possibility that they could sound as good or even better than the old designs. Casey |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 1, 2017 12:47:41 GMT -5
... I'll wait till either Emotiva gets its head back on straight regarding its switching PS. Or if they transition to switching, then I'll just wait for the replacement company that is sure to come to occupy the niche of cheap heavy iron that Emotiva seems keen on leaving open to the competition.I believe Monoprice has already done this with their Monolith amps. Semi-powerful, transparent, exceedingly affordable and they're made right here in the good ole USA by ATI. And... they're getting excellent reviews (and awards) from the "major" audio press. I've not heard one, but to me, that's a grand slam... Note that ATI also manufactures Hypex Ncore-based amplifiers. See for instance their 8-channel AT52XNC Amplifier. Casey |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 1, 2017 13:27:35 GMT -5
Casey Leedom : I think that if you were truly interested in the amp line you would have bought one by gen 2. Ah, but you're forgetting two things: - Despite being an "audiophile", I'm cheap.
- The MPS-1 was more than good enough for my old Vandersteen 2Ce Speakers. My relatively new Legacy Audio Focus SEs are far more revealing.
I don't think that it's a given that Switching Power Supplies are a Bad Thing™. The Hypex Ncore technology developed by Bruno Putzeys has taken the audio world by storm with many very good reviews — both professional and end user. And there are other Class D Amplifier designs which have also broken the mold and gotten reviewers to take another look at that design class which had been looked down upon. Bruno's designs in particular use an enormous amount of Control System Negative Feedback in order to get as close as possible to the ideal "straight wire with gain" that a "colorless" amplifier should strive to attain. His amplifiers are constantly measuring the output and correcting for non-linearities. Other designers of Linear Power Supplies like Nelson Pass eschew all Negative Feedback, but in order to do that they need to over-design the capacity of the resulting amplifier designs in order to stay well within the the capacity of such Open Loop designs to stay linear. Basically, I think that we're looking at a whole new world in terms of high-end amplifier designs that are coming on line and I think we should keep our minds open to the possibility that they could sound as good or even better than the old designs. Casey True to all points. Also keep in mind, I haven't heard these so I don't know if they sound good. However my friend who ordered them had his arrive DOA. In fairness, he was taken care of. Though it's essentially anecdotal, it doesn't draw me to these amps. However important distinctions to your post. 1. Emotiva is not Bruno Putzeys. Bruno Putzeys has a distinct reputation that he has earned in terms of his amp design and switching power supply. 2. They don't use the same switcher AFAIK. 3. These aren't class D amps. These are class AB amps. 4. Bruno's amps measure INSANELY well. Better than most amps on the market including Emotiva's. Emotiva's gen 3 amps however encountered distortion problems in their Stereophile measurements. Emotiva re-measured them to show lower distortion - however NOT at the same stress level as the Stereophile. They mentioned that the stress level was "unfair" due to real world usage so they weren't tested at that level. However....other amps did perform better at this "unfair" stress level which makes me question why this re-test wasn't performed at the unfair level other than for negative performance reasons. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 1, 2017 13:52:05 GMT -5
By the way, on the Stereophile testing methodology of "preconditioning" by running amplifiers into an 8Ω resistor at one third maximum rated power for 1 hour before testing: I really don't understand doing this since it doesn't relate to any real world conditions other than a Heavy Metal Band in concert. This strikes me as akin to punching a race horse for an hour before having it run a race. Yes, you can absolutely affect the performance of unarmored race horses, but is it relevant? But yes, some amplifiers will survive that better because they have lots of headroom.
But don't take the above as an unswerving defense of the XPA Gen3 in that Stereophile review, I'm merely noting that I'm not convinced that Stereophile's "preconditioning" is in any way relevant to real world use.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Dec 1, 2017 14:06:57 GMT -5
Gar bulky,
True that nCore now uses an SMPS but at one point you could buy the makings for a LINEAR PS thru the Hypex store.
As long as the amp module gets the right voltage, has available current AND very low ripple, the module is happy.
B&O, does it a little different. They package a SMPS so all you really need to do is hook up mains power, speakers, and an input.
Each amp has it's own built-in PS and it's a Switcher.
Casey. Stereophile does 'Worst Case Scenario' when testing amps. Looking at measured performance COLD than after Pre-Conditioning can
be 'telling' when it comes to heat sink capacity, stability, layout and parts choice.
Will you or I ever stress an amp to that degree? I hope not, but than car testers do stuff I hope I'd never do to my car, either.
Amps which shut down or have large measurable shifts after heating up may NOT be what you want. Stick such an amp in a cabinet or other restricted
airspace and you may have problems.
Just Spit-ballin' here.
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 1, 2017 14:08:56 GMT -5
By the way, on the Stereophile testing methodology of "preconditioning" by running amplifiers into an 8Ω resistor at one third maximum rated power for 1 hour before testing: I really don't understand doing this since it doesn't relate to any real world conditions other than a Heavy Metal Band in concert. This strikes me as akin to punching a race horse for an hour before having it run a race. Yes, you can absolutely affect the performance of unarmored race horses, but is it relevant? But yes, some amplifiers will survive that better because they have lots of headroom. But don't take the above as an unswerving defense of the XPA Gen3 in that Stereophile review, I'm merely noting that I'm not convinced that Stereophile's "preconditioning" is in any way relevant to real world use. Casey I totally agree with you Casey. When John Atkinson, himself, makes statements like " Predicting the subjective effect of this objective behavior is probably an exercise in futility.." and " But the amplifier's problems at the top of the audioband bother me", it makes me question the value of the whole process...  |
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Post by leonski on Dec 1, 2017 14:41:20 GMT -5
We've entered the area where Fact and Opinion mix. And persons like Atkinson who have both heard AND measured more amps then the law allows has what I call an 'Educated' opinion.
That he is 'bothered' by something is to me a reason to examine what he said closely. His is not an 'ordinary' opinion.
Rather than question the process, it gives me hope that someday measured performance and listening tests will be more on the same page.
I've seen photos here on the EMO website of STACKS of amps which can't be good for heating.
2 drives behind an amps heat output. PS type and load. Than you have output stage condition of bias. Run the Bias down low and you may have an amp that is stone cold up to a couple watts than heats gradually.
Designer takes advantage of that to install minimal heat sinking which cuts costs AND shipping weight / bulk. Agreed 100% that few if any users stress an amp like you'd find in the Stereophile Pre-conditioning. With
the possible exception of the 'Amp Stacker'.
Overall efficiency can be a measure of HEAT output, but not necessarily Temperature, which is based on heat input into mass or weight. I've seen people keep a regular 100 watt lightbulb in the pump house lit during
freezing weather to keep the pipes Just Warm enough.
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 1, 2017 15:10:49 GMT -5
We've entered the area where Fact and Opinion mix. And persons like Atkinson who have both heard AND measured more amps then the law allows has what I call an 'Educated' opinion. That he is 'bothered' by something is to me a reason to examine what he said closely. His is not an 'ordinary' opinion. I wholeheartedly agree and I will always respect an "educated" opinion, but my point was more to the fact of how "worst case scenario" translates to "real world performance". I'm more interested in how the amp performs under normal (or even slightly above normal) conditions. Their "worst case scenario", in my opinion, translates to misuse. What "educated" user does that in the real world...? Just my $.02 |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 1, 2017 17:37:31 GMT -5
So using 30% of the amps rated power for an hour is considered crazy? Have you guys seen the transformers movie?!  |
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 1, 2017 17:55:54 GMT -5
We've entered the area where Fact and Opinion mix. And persons like Atkinson who have both heard AND measured more amps then the law allows has what I call an 'Educated' opinion. That he is 'bothered' by something is to me a reason to examine what he said closely. His is not an 'ordinary' opinion. I wholeheartedly agree and I will always respect an "educated" opinion, but my point was more to the fact of how "worst case scenario" translates to "real world performance". I'm more interested in how the amp performs under normal (or even slightly above normal) conditions. Their "worst case scenario", in my opinion, translates to misuse. What "educated" user does that in the real world...? Just my $.02 I have read many posts here from "educated" folks stating how extremely loud they do listen to their systems and allegedly the amps "don't even break a sweat", whatever that means. I do think that in the real world these "educated" folks abuse the amps. |
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 1, 2017 17:58:06 GMT -5
So using 30% of the amps rated power for an hour is considered crazy? Have you guys seen the transformers movie?! Since the "preconditioning" is done with "continuous" watts, and 100 watts driving a speaker with a decent sensitivity of 90dB would yield ~110 dBs, yeah, I kinda do... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2017 17:58:19 GMT -5
It's not a matter of headroom.... With a typical Class A/B amplifier, 1/3 rated power is the point where the amplifier generates the most heat, and so is the most stressful operating point for the amplifier. The original 1972 FTC power measurement standard called for the amplifier to be "preconditioned at 1/3 power for one hour" - basically to see if it would overheat or burn out - before the test was run. (And, in those days, many amplifiers failed to survive it...) By the way, on the Stereophile testing methodology of "preconditioning" by running amplifiers into an 8Ω resistor at one third maximum rated power for 1 hour before testing: I really don't understand doing this since it doesn't relate to any real world conditions other than a Heavy Metal Band in concert. This strikes me as akin to punching a race horse for an hour before having it run a race. Yes, you can absolutely affect the performance of unarmored race horses, but is it relevant? But yes, some amplifiers will survive that better because they have lots of headroom. But don't take the above as an unswerving defense of the XPA Gen3 in that Stereophile review, I'm merely noting that I'm not convinced that Stereophile's "preconditioning" is in any way relevant to real world use. Casey |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2017 18:03:25 GMT -5
Music is very dynamic..... In general, with "typical music", the peaks are between 10x and 20x as loud as the average level. Therefore, if you play a 500 watt amplifier loud enough to "just start clipping", your average level is probably between 25 and 50 watts. (Of course it's going to be a lot different with different types of music.) I wholeheartedly agree and I will always respect an "educated" opinion, but my point was more to the fact of how "worst case scenario" translates to "real world performance". I'm more interested in how the amp performs under normal (or even slightly above normal) conditions. Their "worst case scenario", in my opinion, translates to misuse. What "educated" user does that in the real world...? Just my $.02 I have read many posts here from "educated" folks stating how extremely loud they do listen to their systems and allegedly the amps "don't even break a sweat", whatever that means. I do think that in the real world these "educated" folks abuse the amps. |
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