KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 9, 2018 10:38:03 GMT -5
Thank you.... for an injection of sanity.I looked at the link... and responded to it (I didn't go back and watch the video... although I'm pretty sure that, as usual, any information in it was the best we had at the time). I have no intention of fact checking every single claim as it goes by... I have other duties.  (We could probably hire a team of guys to do that... but, if we did, we'd have to double the prices of all our products to pay them.) However, as a general guideline, perhaps people should just start accepting that any claim about anything that happens in the future, made by ANYONE, is "speculative" and "subject to change". Almost every major corporation says, in every single stockholder's report, that they just know they're going to double sales and dominate the market next year. (With a footnote that says that everything they said is actually "speculative" and "based on current projections" and "subject to change".) And the last car commercial I watched, which showed all sorts of cool features like "lane change warning" and "auto coffee dispensing", had fine print that said that: "This commercial shows a prototype model with optional features".... which is a nice way of saying that they're not promising that the car YOU buy will have those features, even though you're watching them on TV. I also distinctly remember Obama promising that my health insurance costs would go down. And, after a year in office, Donald Trump hasn't brought about the fall of civilization as we know it yet either (as many people were quite sure would happen). (I would also point out that, unlike some major corporations, Dan and others on our team frequently participate in unscripted interviews. Therefore, since every word wasn't read off a teleprompter, after being vetted by our lawyers, it's possible that, being human, he actually mis-spoke. If, as someone elaborated, he referred to "the currently available board", then it's pretty obvious he was talking about the v2 board, which was currently available at that time, right?) We live in a world where companies are promising to deliver products that are based on standards that are still "subject to change" and "some details are unavailable". Therefore, we do the best we can to keep track of what's going on, and to keep our customers abreast of the situation. As far as I know, we're probably going to continue to provide the most accurate information we have available, as it becomes available. This seems to be what most of our customers want, and, to us, it also seems like the fairest way to handle things. Does it really make a difference at this point, who said what!! WTF! The boards are not out yet.....you can't buy them yet.....you have to actually wait if you want them. Bottom line. Sorry about that....I'm usually pretty calm, but this grinding of teeth and wringing of hands and pointing of fingers is not productive at all.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on Jan 9, 2018 10:56:18 GMT -5
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS LEGITIMATE AND PRODUCTIVE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE NEW AND SOON-TO-BE-RELEASED UPGRADE BOARDS.This includes, but is not limited to, discussion of the features that will be included, our best estimates on availability, and even feature suggestions and requests. However, the bashing, gnashing, and complaining has reached a point where it has become annoying to the folks who actually want to carry on a productive discussion. Here's the advice I have for anyone who finds that the information we provide in the forums, or in the Podcasts or videos, isn't accurate enough for them.....
Don't listen to the Podcasts, or watch the videos, or read the forums - and ignore all the other less than perfect sources of information out there.....
I absolutely promise that, just as soon as we have the product available to sell to you, it WILL be in the shopping cart.We will also continue to provide you with the best and latest information we have... as we deem worthwhile. Read it or use it at your own risk. I also hereby acknowledge that some of the predictions we provided in the past about product availability did eventually turn out not to be entirely accurate. (20/20 hindsight and all that.... perhaps our crystal ball was experiencing a bit of interference that day..... maybe sunspots.....) However... FROM NOW ON, ANY POSTS THAT COME TO MY ATTENTION, AND WHICH I INTERPRET AS "SENSELESS BASHING AND COMPLAINING", WILL BE DELETED.(You may feel free to continue to pontificate about the historical accuracy of our predictions on YOUR blog... but not on OUR Forums.) 
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Post by Talley on Jan 9, 2018 20:31:18 GMT -5
Well said.
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Post by audiogeek on Jan 10, 2018 13:52:13 GMT -5
Wow... very quiet now.  |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jan 10, 2018 14:24:32 GMT -5
Okay, once both boards are available, I wonder how long the turn-around time will be to do the upgrade.
(and where's that 4 channel ATMOS amp, a Build Your Own XPA with two stereo modules is probably overkill, we probably need a BASX A-400, or something else).
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 10, 2018 17:36:52 GMT -5
Wow... very quiet now. Well when the prison warden has a big gun and says "my way or the grave".....  Just sayin'.....  |
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Post by pknaz on Jan 11, 2018 0:13:14 GMT -5
Okay, once both boards are available, I wonder how long the turn-around time will be to do the upgrade. (and where's that 4 channel ATMOS amp, a Build Your Own XPA with two stereo modules is probably overkill, we probably need a BASX A-400, or something else). Or a six channel |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on Jan 11, 2018 0:48:53 GMT -5
It's really difficult to predict the turnaround time for upgrades. Boards don't really take very long to install (and it doesn't take long to test the unit afterwards either). It will really depend on how many people send in their units for the upgrade, when we get them in, and how busy we are. We expect more people to want just the HDMI upgrade than both, and we expect most people to do the HDMi upgrade themselves at home. (If you call in right before sending in your unit we'll always be happy to tell you how the backlog looks right at that time in more detail.) As for four and eight channel BasX amps... I'm not expecting a BasX A-400 or A-600 any time soon.... (we've already got a lot of different BasX models.) But there are lots of ways you can get or make up various numbers of channels out of BasX amps..... If you need four channels: - you could buy two BasX A-100's (two channels each; and they're small) - you could buy a pair of BasX A-150's or a pair of A-300's (two channels each) - you could buy an A-500 and simply not use one channel - you could buy an A-800 and bridge all four pairs of channels (which would give you around 4 x 100 watts) If you need six channels: - you could buy three BasX A-100's (two channels each) - you could buy three BasX A-150's, or three A-300's, or a combination of some of each (two channels each) - you could buy an A-700 and simply not use one channel - you could buy an A-800 and use six of its eight channels If you're looking for flexibility, in one box, then the BasX A-800 is probably your best bet Okay, once both boards are available, I wonder how long the turn-around time will be to do the upgrade. (and where's that 4 channel ATMOS amp, a Build Your Own XPA with two stereo modules is probably overkill, we probably need a BASX A-400, or something else). |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jan 11, 2018 8:26:41 GMT -5
I forgot, I do need six (and I considered every option you laid out, Keith ). But my question also goes to how much speaker, and how much power do I really need for the ATMOS speakers. |
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on Jan 11, 2018 10:00:25 GMT -5
I think the real answer to that is going to depend on a lot of factors. First off.... how important do you consider the Atmos "stuff" to be? Remember that, even in real real life not much happens over your head. So, in a movie, how much stuff will be going on over your head, and how critical is it... really? Do you really care if the helicopter that flies overhead in one scene is reproduced as perfectly as the dialog? Or will you be happy if it sounds sort of like it's over your head? Or do you even care at all? Second off.... how important do the producers consider it to be? How much effort are they going to expend to make their movie sound great for the small percentage of their audience who bothers to install ceiling speakers? And, for that matter, how much of a difference will it make on HOW MANY movies? Are we really going to be listening to complicated action taking place in the treetops over our heads... or is it going to be the occasion rainstorm or bullet whizzing around over our heads? Go listen to it at your local theater. I've spoken to people who think Atmos is so wonderful it brings tears to their eyes..... and aren't willing to live without it. And others who barely notice it, probably wouldn't notice if the height channels at their theater were broken that day, and have no intention of paying to get it in their home. (Face it, if you think it's cool, but not especially important, then any crappy little speaker will do.) And, of course, it's going to depend a lot on your room and your speakers. For example, how far up is your ceiling? And are you using ceiling speakers or bounce speakers? Personally, I find it interesting that we can become so obsessed with "immersive sound" after essentially abandoning immersive video. (Remember wrap around Cinemascope theater screens, and talk of full 360 degree video? What ever happened to that?) I've mentioned in other posts that I personally find this somewhat odd. I hear two guys talking behind me on that immersive sound track, turn around to look at them, and dang if there isn't a blank wall there..... no picture..... and eventually my neck gets tired. When we actually have holograms, or real surround video, I'll be the first one to demand a sound track to match... but until then I can't work up the enthusiasm to care much. But that's just me. My point is that MY answer to "How much speaker and amplifier power do you need for Atmos?" is "none"..... and YOUR answer will absolutely depend on how YOU feel about it. The proper answer would be that, if, in that one scene where the starship lands on your head, you want it to sound right, then you need pretty good speakers, and probably as much power as for your other surrounds. (In fact, as general advice, I might suggest that: "Your surrounds are a little less important than your main speakers, your rear surrounds are a bit less important than the sides, and the height channels are the least important".) I forgot, I do need six (and I considered every option you laid out, Keith ). But my question also goes to how much speaker, and how much power do I really need for the ATMOS speakers. |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jan 11, 2018 12:38:39 GMT -5
(In fact, as general advice, I might suggest that: "Your surrounds are a little less important than your main speakers, your rear surrounds are a bit less important than the sides, and the height channels are the least important".) , that's pretty much what I was thinking. I was just looking for a general concept, just like that; I knew I need "less" for my rear speakers, but now I have a concept of what I need to look at for the four ceiling ATMOS. |
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Post by musicfan on Jan 11, 2018 14:53:12 GMT -5
i find it hard to fathom...a company can create an atmos processor that will retail for $5k but are (at least one of their official voices is) suggesting to use anything but very good speakers for ALL channels.
KeithL we get it, you despise anything more than 2 channel but if you want theater sound at home what your suggesting...well...you're doing it wrong
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jan 11, 2018 15:00:21 GMT -5
My mains and surrounds are the same, my center is part of the matched set, and I have my sub. That is for music.
Considering how little information comes from the rear surrounds, and will be coming from the ATMOS speakers, Keith's advice makes sense. I don't see the need for musical speakers for the rear surrounds and the ATMOS speakers.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 11, 2018 15:43:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm pretty much in KeithL 's camp. I think you can do very well for height and surround channels with "decent" speakers and amplifiers. There's just not enough information coming in to justify multi-thousand-dollar channels (speakers + amplification) for those. Of course that begs the reason for the RMC-1's 16 fully balanced differential channels, but that leaves you the option of spending as much as you want on your height and surround speakers/amplification ... :-) Casey |
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Post by musicfan on Jan 11, 2018 16:57:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm pretty much in KeithL 's camp. I think you can do very well for height and surround channels with "decent" speakers and amplifiers. There's just not enough information coming in to justify multi-thousand-dollar channels (speakers + amplification) for those. Of course that begs the reason for the RMC-1's 16 fully balanced differential channels, but that leaves you the option of spending as much as you want on your height and surround speakers/amplification ... :-) Casey If you have heard both crappy surrounds and then fully capable nice surrounds in the same theater your opinion would change I'm sure. |
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Post by sahmen on Jan 11, 2018 17:08:05 GMT -5
On the XMC-1, Reference Stereo Mode is my preferred choice for music... 2nd choice for music is multichannel surround in 5.1 or 7.1 format (either matrixed or discreet, with or without Dirac filters)... For these music-related reasons alone, I do not find it ideal to compromise too much on quality in choosing speakers and amps for the surrounds and rear surrounds, all of which are harnessed for the delivery of the music. When it comes to choosing atmos-related height or ceiling speakers (for reasons of music), I fully concur with KeithL's position.
I also agree with KeithL's position when it comes to matching speakers to audio-formats for movies : The 3 front channels and subs become the most most consequential channels to take into account. However, since I am most likely to use any HT system for music on occasion, I cannot skimp on the choice of surrounds and rear surrounds in such cases either.
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Post by musicfan on Jan 11, 2018 22:37:20 GMT -5
ANd for those (Keith) who think atmos is about helicopters flying over head
Watch IT
It will change your mind about atmos
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Post by Talley on Jan 11, 2018 22:47:14 GMT -5
(In fact, as general advice, I might suggest that: "Your surrounds are a little less important than your main speakers, your rear surrounds are a bit less important than the sides, and the height channels are the least important".) , that's pretty much what I was thinking. I was just looking for a general concept, just like that; I knew I need "less" for my rear speakers, but now I have a concept of what I need to look at for the four ceiling ATMOS. The sad thing is nobody will ever know u less people analyze tracks to see what is encoded. It’s not like you hear full range 100db efficient speakers on all channels including Atmos with 1000w of amplification for each channel. Nobody will ever truly know. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 12, 2018 1:25:33 GMT -5
Thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I was just looking for a general concept, just like that; I knew I need "less" for my rear speakers, but now I have a concept of what I need to look at for the four ceiling ATMOS. The sad thing is nobody will ever know u less people analyze tracks to see what is encoded. It’s not like you hear full range 100db efficient speakers on all channels including Atmos with 1000w of amplification for each channel. Nobody will ever truly know. A friend of mine and I tried a whole lot of combinations of speakers and power amplifiers when we were trying to determine the best setup for his room which is really only suitable for 5.1.2. For example we tried using the AVR power amps which are rated at 75 watts but are more like 50 watts. Then we tried a couple of his monoblocks rated at 100 watts each. Later on my XPA-5 rated at 200 watts (but with only 2 channels driven it's 275 watts). We also tried a few different speakers and locations using a portable overhead gantry that my son uses for photographic work. A pair of designated ceiling speakers with 5 drivers, another pair with 2 drivers each, a pair of vintage KEF's, and a pair of Paradigm Signature monitors. We also tried a pair of Airmotive 6's with their inbuilt power amps. Lots of fun for a couple of weekends, but in the end he went for the 2 driver ceiling speakers and a 125 WPC stereo amp. Anything less than that just sounded thin and lacked impact. More than that didn't really add anything to the experience, that we could discern anyway. Based on that I believe that there is sweat spot in the spec/value of the amp and speakers which is pretty much the same as anything else audio. What sounds good to the individual at the price that they can afford to pay. Cheers Gary |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 12, 2018 8:26:23 GMT -5
PS - Don't forget us 4K/HDR/Dolby Vision people |
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Does it really make a difference at this point, who said what!! WTF!
