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Post by nickwin on Jan 25, 2018 9:42:31 GMT -5
SA-250 Power Supply: 40,000 uF of separate storage capacitance per channel, 1200 VA heavy duty torroidal transformer So 80,000 uF total? If so, that puts it in between the XPA-2 at 45k and a pair of 1L's at 180k. No idea how that translates to sound, though. Correct, assuming all the xpa1l’s caps are running in parallel. I don’t think you can infer a whole lot about the sound from this but a beefier PS should result in an amp that is more stable at lower impedences and therefore will work with a wider range of speakers. When push comes to shove it should be able to output more power on a continuous basis and perhaps better bass extension/dynamics too. |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 25, 2018 11:29:39 GMT -5
There is one aspect where the XPA-1L excels on paper; output devices. 16 per channel is actually pretty substantial. The SA250 has 10 per channel.
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Post by jcz06 on Jan 25, 2018 12:54:27 GMT -5
Xpr-1
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Post by nickwin on Jan 25, 2018 12:57:39 GMT -5
Just heard back from Emotiva, XPA-1L system capacitance is indeed 90,000uf. That’s pretty substantial! So, two areas where the XPA-1L excels on paper.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 25, 2018 16:48:55 GMT -5
As I said in a previous post, we could debate power supply capacitance and transformer capacity all day and get no where. For me the bottom line is it's a myth that the XPA-1L somehow must have less bass (or less anything else) because it's power supply is "smaller" than the XPA-2's power supply. Firstly it isn't "smaller" because there's 2 of them and looking at the power supplies in total capability they are arguably actually "larger" than the XPA-2 power supply. Secondly, as nickwin has pointed out, there's far more involved in the sound they produce than a simplistic power supply comparison. Maybe the 16 output devices is more important in overall sound reproduction quality.
It really comes down to how Lonnie and the guys have engineered them and how they have voiced them. Personally I like how my XPA-2 sounded, it's still the best stereo power amp for my tastes, but to my ears the XPA-1L's sound a little better. Whether that's their spec, their voicing or the fact that I have taken full advantage of their monoblock design advantages I don't know. For sure it's not night and day, but they do sound better via my speakers, in my room, listening with my ears.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by garbulky on Jan 25, 2018 18:37:37 GMT -5
As I said in a previous post, we could debate power supply capacitance and transformer capacity all day and get no where. For me the bottom line is it's a myth that the XPA-1L somehow must have less bass (or less anything else) because it's power supply is "smaller" than the XPA-2's power supply. Firstly it isn't "smaller" because there's 2 of them and looking at the power supplies in total capability they are arguably actually "larger" than the XPA-2 power supply. Secondly, as nickwin has pointed out, there's far more involved in the sound they produce than a simplistic power supply comparison. Maybe the 16 output devices is more important in overall sound reproduction quality. It really comes down to how Lonnie and the guys have engineered them and how they have voiced them. Personally I like how my XPA-2 sounded, it's still the best stereo power amp for my tastes, but to my ears the XPA-1L's sound a little better. Whether that's their spec, their voicing or the fact that I have taken full advantage of their monoblock design advantages I don't know. For sure it's not night and day, but they do sound better via my speakers, in my room, listening with my ears. Cheers Gary What I like about the XPA-1 L is that it was DEFINITELY a nice sounding amp. I could get very absorbed in the sound and for me that's very important. I think with the right matching, some great systems can come out of it. I still think about my listening time to it. I think it would do quite well with classical acoustic instrumental music. Emotiva's got some serious winners on their hands over the years. |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 25, 2018 19:50:17 GMT -5
Has anyone written up a comparison of the G2 amps vs the G3?
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Post by nickwin on Jan 27, 2018 11:38:30 GMT -5
Well, I decided to find out for myself and was able to snag a pair of XPA-1Ls local. I haven't compared them directly to any of the other amps in my OP, but my initial impression is that they sound very good with my Paradigm studio 20's in a near field set up. The only thing I have compared them to direct a-b so far is a McCormack DNAHT5 (exactly the same as the DNA125), a very highly regarded amp from 10-15 years ago and the XPA-1L clearly has more control, dynamics and headroom (even at modest SPLs). The McCormack is very musical and the voicing is excellent, but its just outclassed by the XPA-1Ls, they are just noticeably beefier amps. Tonally the XPA-1L is smoother with less attack, slightly darker and has a softer treble. I did notice the XPA-1Ls run hotter than any of the other Emotiva amps I've used, even in class ab. I didn't do a direct a-b with the UPA5, but I did try out the UPA5 in the same system about a week ago and going off memory the XPA-1Ls are a noticeable step up from that as well. The UPA5 was slightly dark and very laid back, it had a kind of smoothness to it but at the cost of "speed" and transient attack so it could be little boring and lifeless with certain material. The XPA-1L is somewhat smooth and laid back as well (compared to the McCormack or Parasound HCA I also tried), but it still has some decent forwardness in the mids and treble that gave it just enough excitement. Im finding it to be a nice middle ground in this regard but I agree with what others have said, its a fairly laid back and "smooth" amp in general. I haven't used my XPA5 in this system, but just going off how it sounds on my other system (which is questionable at best), the XPA-1Ls are a noticeable step up from that as well, particularly in the treble. So far Ive compared Parasound HCA885a, UPA5, McCormack DNA HT5 and the XPA-1ls using two pairs of speakers, the Studio 20s and some BG Radia X3 planner/dynamic hybrid towers. BIG differences in sound between these amps (yes, level matched and driven well within there rated power  ). Im finding speaker-amp synergy to be a huge factor as well. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 27, 2018 17:40:06 GMT -5
Good choice  Cheers Gary |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 27, 2018 21:23:13 GMT -5
I wish I could compare them side by side with my sa250 but the cabinet I have have the sa250 is to hard to work in for me to pull it out. That’s the comparo I really want to do. I am looking for another one though so it may happen yet.
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 28, 2018 7:33:33 GMT -5
All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model..
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Post by nickwin on Jan 28, 2018 8:49:59 GMT -5
All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model.. Are you speaking from experience or theory? Have you ever tried to compared two different amps side by side (level matched, same source material) ? In this near field set up the differences are not subtle. In fact they would be hard for me to ignore. Im VERY confident I could differentiate these in a A-B-X test. All I can think is everyone who makes this statement has simply never REALLY tried, but acknowledge maybe we just hear thing that differently. You have to consider that in a normal set up room acoustics drastically alter the sound from the speakers and that can obscure a lot of minor differences. Near field, or even more so with headphones, the differences are obvious. In fact I don’t hear anyone that has tried multiple amps with decent headphones claiming all amps sound the same. Also, what’s neutral? If you simply mean a flat freq respond then all these amps are neutral. That said they don’t all subjectively have the same tonality. I envy you if you hear no difference, we’ll, at least my wallet does. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 28, 2018 10:03:37 GMT -5
Specs are exercises in foolishness. I've owned both the XPA-1Ls (twice) and the XPA-2 (at least three times). Of the two, I consistently preferred the sound of the XPA-2. YMMV...
I haven't heard the SA-250, so I'm out of the loop there.
I also have a gut feeling that the XPA-2 is a more reliable unit than the XPA-1Ls (and with that statement, I expect to trigger an avalanche of posters saying that THEY'VE never had a bit of trouble with theirs). But I base my (small sample) opinion on this - I've NEVER seen an XPA-2 that had to go back for service (except for one, which was new but bad out of the box) but I've seen at least two XPA-1Ls that had to be repaired.
So shoot me! I'm just an XPA-2 fan (have been, am, and continue to be).
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 28, 2018 10:07:27 GMT -5
All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model.. Are you speaking from experience or theory? Have you ever tried to compared two different amps side by side (level matched, same source material) ? In this near field set up the differences are not subtle. In fact they would be hard for me to ignore. Im VERY confident I could differentiate these in a A-B-X test. All I can think is everyone who makes this statement has simply never REALLY tried, but acknowledge maybe we just hear thing that differently. You have to consider that in a normal set up room acoustics drastically alter the sound from the speakers and that can obscure a lot of minor differences. Near field, or even more so with headphones, the differences are obvious. In fact I don’t hear anyone that has tried multiple amps with decent headphones claiming all amps sound the same. Also, what’s neutral? If you simply mean a flat freq respond then all these amps are neutral. That said they don’t all subjectively have the same tonality. I envy you if you hear no difference, we’ll, at least my wallet does. I have owned a lot of power amps, many (if not most) from Emotiva along with power amps from Denon, Marantz, B&K, Bryston and Sunfire. I have tried a psuedo ABX thing but I think it is unreliable and I'm not the only one to feel that way. You also have to decide whether one amp that sounds different from another actually sounds better. I directly compared my XPA-1 amps to a Bryston 4B that I owned (Snell CV) and I thought the Bryston was very forward sounding in the mids and the top end was very hot for my tastes. That amp has been well reviewed by many, but compared to the XPA-1's which were slightly warm but mostly neutral the 4B was not to my liking. You might have a different reaction to it. My point is so much of this is subjective and many times we hear what we want to hear. There are many articles like this if you search: hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/ |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 28, 2018 10:23:38 GMT -5
Are you speaking from experience or theory? Have you ever tried to compared two different amps side by side (level matched, same source material) ? In this near field set up the differences are not subtle. In fact they would be hard for me to ignore. Im VERY confident I could differentiate these in a A-B-X test. All I can think is everyone who makes this statement has simply never REALLY tried, but acknowledge maybe we just hear thing that differently. You have to consider that in a normal set up room acoustics drastically alter the sound from the speakers and that can obscure a lot of minor differences. Near field, or even more so with headphones, the differences are obvious. In fact I don’t hear anyone that has tried multiple amps with decent headphones claiming all amps sound the same. Also, what’s neutral? If you simply mean a flat freq respond then all these amps are neutral. That said they don’t all subjectively have the same tonality. I envy you if you hear no difference, we’ll, at least my wallet does. I have owned a lot of power amps, many (if not most) from Emotiva along with power amps from Denon, Marantz, B&K, Bryston and Sunfire. I have tried a psuedo ABX thing but I think it is unreliable and I'm not the only one to feel that way. You also have to decide whether one amp that sounds different from another actually sounds better. I directly compared my XPA-1 amps to a Bryston 4B that I owned (Snell CV) and I thought the Bryston was very forward sounding in the mids and the top end was very hot for my tastes. That amp has been well reviewed by many, but compared to the XPA-1's which were slightly warm but mostly neutral the 4B was not to my liking. You might have a different reaction to it. My point is so much of this is subjective and many times we hear what we want to hear. There are many articles like this if you search: hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/This I agree with 100%, but wait a second, aren't you acknowledge that amps do sound different in this statement? I think the sound of amps can differ in two ways, they can be more or less the same power and quality but with different presentation of the sound, in which case neither is technically better but one may sound subjectively better, and then there are amps that are just objectively better than others, more power, better dynamics, faster transients, less distortion etc... Just overall better control of a driver and I believe this is audible. Im well aware of the theory that all amps should sound the same, and I believed it for a while, until I actually compared some different amps for myself at which point I found that, for me, the differences where impossible to ignore. Im a science person in general, I definitely lean more towards the pro audio/engineer camp than the eccentric audiophile camp but in this particular case I just don't buy it. There are significant measurable differences between amps after all AND I hear a difference so in my mind there is no question. What would you say IF I, or anyone else, could consistently differentiate between level matched amps? Would that change your mind? |
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 28, 2018 10:30:16 GMT -5
I have owned a lot of power amps, many (if not most) from Emotiva along with power amps from Denon, Marantz, B&K, Bryston and Sunfire. I have tried a psuedo ABX thing but I think it is unreliable and I'm not the only one to feel that way. You also have to decide whether one amp that sounds different from another actually sounds better. I directly compared my XPA-1 amps to a Bryston 4B that I owned (Snell CV) and I thought the Bryston was very forward sounding in the mids and the top end was very hot for my tastes. That amp has been well reviewed by many, but compared to the XPA-1's which were slightly warm but mostly neutral the 4B was not to my liking. You might have a different reaction to it. My point is so much of this is subjective and many times we hear what we want to hear. There are many articles like this if you search: hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/This I agree with 100%, but aren't you acknowledge that amps do sound different in this statement? I think the sound of amps can differ in two way, they can be more or less the same power and quality but with different presentation of the sound, in which case neither is technically better but one may sound subjectively better, and then there are amps that are just objectively better than others, more power, better dynamics, faster transients, less distortion etc... Just overall better control of a driver and I believe this is audible. Im well aware of the theory that all amps should sound the same, and I believed it for a while, until I actually compared some different amps for myself at which point I found that, for me, the differences where impossible to ignore. Im a science person in general, I definitely lean more towards the pro audio/engineer camp than the eccentric audiophile camp but in this particular case I just don't buy it. There are significant measurable differences between amps after all AND I hear a difference so in my mind there is no question. What would you say IF I, or anyone else, could consistently differentiate between level matched amps? Would that change your mind? I think you/we like what we like. Just remember different is not necessarily better. Coke or Pepsi? Lamborghini or Ferrari? Vanilla or Chocolate? One of the biggest hurdles in this hobby is the relentless obsession for the "best" sounding this or that. And people that fall down that slippery slope spend their whole lives trying to find their sonic nirvana and trying to get others to agree with them. |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 28, 2018 10:35:52 GMT -5
This I agree with 100%, but aren't you acknowledge that amps do sound different in this statement? I think the sound of amps can differ in two way, they can be more or less the same power and quality but with different presentation of the sound, in which case neither is technically better but one may sound subjectively better, and then there are amps that are just objectively better than others, more power, better dynamics, faster transients, less distortion etc... Just overall better control of a driver and I believe this is audible. Im well aware of the theory that all amps should sound the same, and I believed it for a while, until I actually compared some different amps for myself at which point I found that, for me, the differences where impossible to ignore. Im a science person in general, I definitely lean more towards the pro audio/engineer camp than the eccentric audiophile camp but in this particular case I just don't buy it. There are significant measurable differences between amps after all AND I hear a difference so in my mind there is no question. What would you say IF I, or anyone else, could consistently differentiate between level matched amps? Would that change your mind?
One of the biggest hurdles in this hobby is the relentless obsession for the "best" sounding this or that. And people that fall down that slippery slope spend their whole lives trying to find their sonic nirvana and trying to get others to agree with them. I dont disagree with this. I believe there ARE amps that are objectively better than others, but more often they are just different (this is where speaker-amp synergy and personal preference comes in). That said your initial comment was that all amps sound the SAME. That is where we where in disagreement. It sounds like your acknowledging you DO hear differences, yet your still quoting sources that say you shouldn't. For me, audio is a hobby, I genuinely enjoy the "relentless obsession for" what I find to be "the "best" sounding", but I don't care if anyone else agrees with me. At the end of the day its about my enjoyment and Im confident that all my efforts bring me more enjoyment from the music than I would have otherwise. If you put the time and effort to really determine what you like best, in your system, you don't need others to confirm this for you, because you know from first hand experience. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 28, 2018 11:01:58 GMT -5
I think you/we like what we like. Just remember different is not necessarily better. Coke or Pepsi? Lamborghini or Ferrari? Vanilla or Chocolate?
One of the biggest hurdles in this hobby is the relentless obsession for the "best" sounding this or that. And people that fall down that slippery slope spend their whole lives trying to find their sonic nirvana and trying to get others to agree with them. I dont disagree with this. I believe there ARE amps that are objectively better than others, but more often they are just different (this is where speaker-amp synergy and personal preference comes in). That said your initial comment was that all amps sound the SAME. That is where we where in disagreement. It sounds like your acknowledging you DO hear differences, yet your still quoting sources that say you shouldn't. For me, audio is a hobby, I genuinely enjoy the "relentless obsession for" what I find to be "the "best" sounding", but I don't care if anyone else agrees with me. At the end of the day its about my enjoyment and Im confident that all my efforts bring me more enjoyment from the music than I would have otherwise. If you put the time and effort to really determine what you like best, in your system, you don't need others to confirm this for you, because you know from first hand experience. Agreed but I did say that all neutral sounding amps sound the same. The differences can be minute if infinitesimal. You can win the debate, I'll go back to just enjoying the music.. |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 28, 2018 11:19:42 GMT -5
Specs are exercises in foolishness. I've owned both the XPA-1Ls (twice) and the XPA-2 (at least three times). Of the two, I consistently preferred the sound of the XPA-2. YMMV... I haven't heard the SA-250, so I'm out of the loop there. I also have a gut feeling that the XPA-2 is a more reliable unit than the XPA-1Ls (and with that statement, I expect to trigger an avalanche of posters saying that THEY'VE never had a bit of trouble with theirs). But I base my (small sample) opinion on this - I've NEVER seen an XPA-2 that had to go back for service (except for one, which was new but bad out of the box) but I've seen at least two XPA-1Ls that had to be repaired. So shoot me! I'm just an XPA-2 fan (have been, am, and continue to be). There could be some truth in this. I've heard that the 1L's run hot and the one thing detrimental to electronics is HEAT. Don't totally ignore specs. |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 28, 2018 11:28:19 GMT -5
Specs are exercises in foolishness. I've owned both the XPA-1Ls (twice) and the XPA-2 (at least three times). Of the two, I consistently preferred the sound of the XPA-2. YMMV... I haven't heard the SA-250, so I'm out of the loop there. I also have a gut feeling that the XPA-2 is a more reliable unit than the XPA-1Ls (and with that statement, I expect to trigger an avalanche of posters saying that THEY'VE never had a bit of trouble with theirs). But I base my (small sample) opinion on this - I've NEVER seen an XPA-2 that had to go back for service (except for one, which was new but bad out of the box) but I've seen at least two XPA-1Ls that had to be repaired. So shoot me! I'm just an XPA-2 fan (have been, am, and continue to be). There could be some truth in this. I've heard that the 1L's run hot and the one thing detrimental to electronics is HEAT. Don't totally ignore specs. Can confirm, I have had a xpa5 and Xpa1 stacked for a number of years and they barely get warm. I wouldn’t be comfortable staking the xpa1ls in class a mode, maybe not ever. They got pretty hot even in class ab. Emotiva also said they have had more problems with these than the SA250. I didn't ask about any of the other amps. |
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). Im finding speaker-amp synergy to be a huge factor as well.
