andyo
Minor Hero
Posts: 21 
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Post by andyo on Jan 28, 2018 11:35:45 GMT -5
Are you speaking from experience or theory? Have you ever tried to compared two different amps side by side (level matched, same source material) ? In this near field set up the differences are not subtle. In fact they would be hard for me to ignore. Im VERY confident I could differentiate these in a A-B-X test. All I can think is everyone who makes this statement has simply never REALLY tried, but acknowledge maybe we just hear thing that differently. You have to consider that in a normal set up room acoustics drastically alter the sound from the speakers and that can obscure a lot of minor differences. Near field, or even more so with headphones, the differences are obvious. In fact I don’t hear anyone that has tried multiple amps with decent headphones claiming all amps sound the same. Also, what’s neutral? If you simply mean a flat freq respond then all these amps are neutral. That said they don’t all subjectively have the same tonality. I envy you if you hear no difference, we’ll, at least my wallet does.  I have owned a lot of power amps, many (if not most) from Emotiva along with power amps from Denon, Marantz, B&K, Bryston and Sunfire. I have tried a psuedo ABX thing but I think it is unreliable and I'm not the only one to feel that way. You also have to decide whether one amp that sounds different from another actually sounds better. I directly compared my XPA-1 amps to a Bryston 4B that I owned (Snell CV) and I thought the Bryston was very forward sounding in the mids and the top end was very hot for my tastes. That amp has been well reviewed by many, but compared to the XPA-1's which were slightly warm but mostly neutral the 4B was not to my liking. You might have a different reaction to it. My point is so much of this is subjective and many times we hear what we want to hear. There are many articles like this if you search: hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/In you previous post you said: "All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model.." . Here you claim that you hear a difference between Bryston 4B and Emo XPA-1. Do you imply that both the Bryston and Emotiva amps are note well designed? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 28, 2018 15:17:41 GMT -5
All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model.. Just a comment about your comment - by definition if an amp sounds "neutral" then it ought to sound like any other "neutral" amp because that means adding no coloration to the sound (i.e., a straight wire with gain) so if it is just passing the signal, one neutral amp should sound like another neutral amp. Let me qualify that by saying when operated within their intended parameters so they aren't being overdriven, tortured, etc. And maybe there are differences between amps, maybe even infinitessimal ones, but the way I see it, audio is too full of people making mountains out of molehills arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. One person's best "sounding" amp may is not that to another and so what. That's why we have choices. Trying to argue about what is the best amp and trying to convince someone who disagrees is like arguing about who makes the best pizza, or what you should be ordering for dinner. |
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Post by nickwin on Jan 28, 2018 16:28:46 GMT -5
At the end of the day I think the only thing you can ask everyone to agree on is that not everyone hears things the same way and the hobby can be very different things for different people.
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Post by nickwin on Jan 29, 2018 11:35:11 GMT -5
Quick follow up on my previous comments about the XPA-1L with Paradigm Studio 20s. I am running these unbalanced:
Its funny that almost everyone used the word "smooth" (included Emotiva) to describe this amp, because that is exactly the word that comes to mind when I listen to it. Its not dark, its perhaps slightly laid back, but hardly because it still has some bite and if its a forward sounding recording it conveys that. It just sounds smooth. Im finding the smooth sound allows be to turn up the volume without it getting fatiguing which in turn brings out more detail, which is great. The flip side is the sound is a little lifeless at lower volumes.
Sound stage is wide with good depth but the image is a little diffuse (I don't get a particularly stable and focused image). Still very good.
A few people mentioned a lack of perceived bass weight and Im going to have to agree with that. The bass seems to be there (in terms of SPL), I can hear all the bass notes, yet it just doesn't have the weight and transient impact some of the other amps have. Its almost like the bass is a little smeared in the time domain. The word "wooly" comes to mind (don't ask me what that means). To be clear the bass definitely doesn't sound bad, in fact it just adds to the smooth sound, but if your looking for major bass weight and slam, I would say this probably isn't your amp.
All in all I think they sounds really good. I do think the sound signiture could work very well in some situations. No question these are great amps for what they are selling for on the used market right now.
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Post by DavidR on Jan 29, 2018 16:23:56 GMT -5
Wooly is typically used when talking about bass when a tube amp is used. It refers to the fact that the sound appears to have a wool blanket draped over the speaker. i.e. somewhat muffled.
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Post by nickwin on Jan 30, 2018 10:33:08 GMT -5
Wooly is typically used when talking about bass when a tube amp is used. It refers to the fact that the sound appears to have a wool blanket draped over the speaker. i.e. somewhat muffled. Sweet, that’s exactly how I used it.  |
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Post by leonski on Feb 16, 2018 15:56:43 GMT -5
All well made and neutral sounding amps pretty much sound the same no matter the brand or model.. Just a comment about your comment - by definition if an amp sounds "neutral" then it ought to sound like any other "neutral" amp because that means adding no coloration to the sound (i.e., a straight wire with gain) so if it is just passing the signal, one neutral amp should sound like another neutral amp. Let me qualify that by saying when operated within their intended parameters so they aren't being overdriven, tortured, etc. And maybe there are differences between amps, maybe even infinitessimal ones, but the way I see it, audio is too full of people making mountains out of molehills arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. One person's best "sounding" amp may is not that to another and so what. That's why we have choices. Trying to argue about what is the best amp and trying to convince someone who disagrees is like arguing about who makes the best pizza, or what you should be ordering for dinner. The 3 amps in question all have a folllowing. But will differ somewhat when driving more difficult loads. And by difficult I don't mean impedance, but rather reactance. So, while they may measure quite similar into a resistor, NO speaker is a pure resistor. So? Amp 'A' may be quite neutral into a certain speaker while another which has a reputation for being 'fair' or 'neutral' may not get along with that load and no longer sound neutral. That being said, MOST speakers used in HT scenarios are not that bad a load to the extent of Really stressing out an amp. Exceptions exist, but that's a case-by-case call. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2018 18:43:22 GMT -5
A few people mentioned a lack of perceived bass weight and Im going to have to agree with that. The bass seems to be there (in terms of SPL), I can hear all the bass notes, yet it just doesn't have the weight and transient impact some of the other amps have. Its almost like the bass is a little smeared in the time domain. The word "wooly" comes to mind (don't ask me what that means). To be clear the bass definitely doesn't sound bad, in fact it just adds to the smooth sound, but if your looking for major bass weight and slam, I would say this probably isn't your amp. If you are talking about woofer frequency bass then I disagree completely, if you are talking about sub woofer frequency bass then I wouldn't know because I run a sub woofer. Which strangely enough is why we run a sub woofer.  Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Feb 16, 2018 19:38:26 GMT -5
At one point I owned ported 12" 3-way box speakers. JBL 4311 for a while and RSL copies for quite a bit longer. You'd think they'd have good bass, but they didn't. Nope. Being ported you end up with a big 'bump' in the (maybe) 70 to 120 area. This can SOUND like good bass until you hear something with good extension.
Even my MG-1 Magnepans were more 'musical' in the lowest octave they'd actually reproduce. (maybe to 50hz?)
I suspect people with bass-shy results don't have speakers which produce much bass, anyway. Regardless of manufacturers claims of 25hz to 30khz response. Or on the flip side? Amp IS the problem anad doesn't like the load presented by the speaker.
Just spit-ballin' here.
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Post by nickwin on Feb 17, 2018 14:29:34 GMT -5
A few people mentioned a lack of perceived bass weight and Im going to have to agree with that. The bass seems to be there (in terms of SPL), I can hear all the bass notes, yet it just doesn't have the weight and transient impact some of the other amps have. Its almost like the bass is a little smeared in the time domain. The word "wooly" comes to mind (don't ask me what that means). To be clear the bass definitely doesn't sound bad, in fact it just adds to the smooth sound, but if your looking for major bass weight and slam, I would say this probably isn't your amp. If you are talking about woofer frequency bass then I disagree completely, if you are talking about sub woofer frequency bass then I wouldn't know because I run a sub woofer. Which strangely enough is why we run a sub woofer. Cheers Gary At what frequency are you crossover over to your sub(s)? Its hard to really judge an amps bass performance if your not relying on it for the majority of the bass... I generally use subs too but I opted not to for this comparison. For clarification though, I don't think what I was hearing was related to extension or even frequency response. I think its more about transient attack. Overall the XPA-1ls sounded softer than the other amps. Smoother but less dynamic. I didn't really think this character was limited to the bass, but it was most noticable at those frequencies. The smooth sound has benefits, the XPA1ls were the least apt to get fatiguing at high volumes out of all the amps I tried. But when it comes to bass I like some transient attack. To me it sounds more dynamic and defined and of course you don't really have to worry about bass having to much attack or causing ear fatigue like you do with mid and treble frequencies. Overall I thought the XPA1ls seemed like solid amps and are probably hard to beat for what they are selling for used. I thought the sound signature could work really well in certain situations but I decided they where not what I was looking for a general purpose amp. To my ears the smooth sound came across as a kind of coloration but who knows, maybe its neutral and all my other amps are artificially forward. All I can say for sure is I preferred a little more forwardness . Keep enjoying what sounds good to you. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 17, 2018 15:55:49 GMT -5
If you are talking about woofer frequency bass then I disagree completely, if you are talking about sub woofer frequency bass then I wouldn't know because I run a sub woofer. Which strangely enough is why we run a sub woofer. At what frequency are you crossover over to your sub(s)? Its hard to really judge an amps bass performance if your not relying on it for the majority of the bass... I generally use subs too but I opted not to for this comparison. For clarification though, I don't think what I was hearing was related to extension or even frequency response. I think its more about transient attack. Overall the XPA-1ls sounded softer than the other amps. Smoother but less dynamic. I didn't really think this character was limited to the bass, but it was most noticable at those frequencies. The smooth sound has benefits, the XPA1ls were the least apt to get fatiguing at high volumes out of all the amps I tried. But when it comes to bass I like some transient attack. To me it sounds more dynamic and defined and of course you don't really have to worry about bass having to much attack or causing ear fatigue like you do with mid and treble frequencies. Overall I thought the XPA1ls seemed like solid amps and are probably hard to beat for what they are selling for used. I thought the sound signature could work really well in certain situations but I decided they where not what I was looking for a general purpose amp. To my ears the smooth sound came across as a kind of coloration but who knows, maybe its neutral and all my other amps are artificially forward. All I can say for sure is I preferred a little more forwardness . Keep enjoying what sounds good to you. For 2.1 stereo music via the XSP-1 I have the upper limit of the sub set around 70hz and so I can run fully balance, discrete, differential I run the FL and FR full range. Just using the sub to balance out their natural low frequency roll off. Of course I have balanced the cross over area so that its relatively flat, no real humps or dips in the frequency response. My room is pretty good, cathedral ceilings, double curtains, soft furnishing, double insulated wall to wall carpet and minimal acoustic treatments. I also have the XPA-1L's located right next to their respective speaker, hence very short speaker cables and long XLR interconnects. Combined with the XSP-1 this also means it is devoid of external noise, it's dead silent. All of which helps. I have had a lot of systems over the years, and like you I also demand what I call a fast amplifier, one with slam, impact, punch and the current set up (not just one element on its own) gives that to me in spades. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Feb 18, 2018 1:50:22 GMT -5
Another spitball, anyone?
I suspect that what is perceived as 'speed' of an amp in a 2.1 or ANY X.1 system is partly driven by the crossover region between sub and woofer.
Before I went to a pre with bass management I ran mains full-range and used the subs crossover which is 24db /octave. Bass thru the crossover region was flabby at best and in my personal den? I thought I was in a 55 gallon drum for the one-note bass.
The fix took 2 main parts.
1. Relocate sub to behind the RH speaker from the left, where it was somewhat corner loaded.
2. Low Cut to the mains, using the preamp 12db octave low cut filter. I set this for 55hz to 60hz maybe a TAD higher.
The Sub was run full range with the SUBS crossover set for 45hz to 50hz @ 24db /octave.
Man, what a DIFFERENCE. Den is now OK to listen in. Bass is VERY musical and I can easily follow a Standup Bass line in well recorded BlueGrass music (Will The Circle Be Unbroken) Extension is THERE, too, and effets laden movies will rumble your intestines.
MOST amps are much faster than 'music'. Check out slew rate specs which should cover most of the ground needed. And fast enough so you get a VERY excellent 10khz square wave will have enough HF extension so you get no phase shift in the audible range.
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Post by nickwin on Mar 7, 2018 17:21:24 GMT -5
I finally found another SA250. SA250 - HT5 comparo coming up . |
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Post by nickwin on Mar 21, 2018 9:08:15 GMT -5
Well, I haven't picked a favorite yet, but I can say these are both fantastic amps, and the best I have heard so far. Much to my surprise, out of all the amps I've tried so far the SA250 is the closest in sound to the HT5. They both have there own character but I haven't been able to determine which I prefer or if one is really "better" than the other. To me this is a testament to the quality of these old McCormack amps, the HT5 is a 5 channel amps from nearly 20 years ago and it really doesn't seem to give up much of anything to the SA250 for 2 channel. That said, the verdict is still out.
My impression at the moment is that the SA250 sounds better in a way; bigger, fuller, less grain, but it almost seems overblown to the point where it sounds synthetic or digital or something. In comparison the McCormack somehow just sounds more transparent, more lifelike, vocals and instruments sound more real to me. Put another way, music through the SA250 sounds like a super tight studio mix compared to the HT5 which sounds more live. I may need to just give myself more time to adjust to the sound of the SA250 as I got pretty used to the HT5.
I will say this about the SA250, to me its the best sounding Emotiva amp Ive heard besides maybe the XPA1 which I use for my center in another system and can't directly compare. IMO the SA250 is in another league entirely from the XPA1Ls/UPAs/XPA5. It sounds bigger, more three dimensional, ZERO grain, throws a better image yet is no more harsh or fatiguing than the other Emo amps. I agree the comments about the bass too, the I find the bass from the SA250 better than from the XPA1ls. Not necessarily more quantity but better quality. If your the type that judges an amp primarily on lack of grain and "fullness", I can't imagine anything being better than the SA250 at ~$750. I would looooove to have 3 of these in my HT.
Sadly my new (used) SA250 has a whine in standby and has to go back to Emotiva for service. Not a great start on the reliability front for a 3 year old amp.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 21, 2018 11:05:23 GMT -5
You may want to try adjusting your speaker position with the new amp. I know I had to. Nice impressions
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Post by nickwin on Mar 21, 2018 12:07:29 GMT -5
You may want to try adjusting your speaker position with the new amp. I know I had to. Nice impressions Thanks and solid advice. I’ll try that out. Now that I have it narrowed down to these two amps (I’m sure I would be happy with either) I’m going to try them out with my Magnepan 1.6s as well. Those will test the power a lot more at 80db/watt and 4 ohms nominal. If the SA250 doesn’t excel in that scenario it probably never will. |
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Post by nickwin on Mar 28, 2018 8:53:47 GMT -5
Well, my comparo was cut short because the SA250, that I just bought seems to have multiple problems. Aside from the whine in standby, it started going into protection mode on me whenever I turned up the volume with my 4 ohm magnepans. I will say the sound was growing on me but this does raise some red flags in terms of long term reliability.
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Post by DavidR on Mar 29, 2018 14:58:16 GMT -5
Some seem to have this issue. I feel it's worth getting it repaired.
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Post by audiophill on Mar 29, 2018 19:26:53 GMT -5
For what it's worth. I went thru 4 pairs of xpa-1ls all failed. Ended up buying Xpr-1"s love them. Also I have a SA250 bought from the forum and love the sound quality! The SA250 is even better than the RPA2 I just bought on the forum just not as pretty. Just my honest opinion.
Phil
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Post by nickwin on Mar 30, 2018 9:28:15 GMT -5
Some seem to have this issue. I feel it's worth getting it repaired. It should be arriving at Emotiva for service today . I’m starting to lean towards keeping the McCormack though. If I were using it only for ht or mixing I would go with the sa250 in a heartbeat but the ht5 just does something right with music. I wouldnt say it’s BETTER for for music with any confidence, but they definitely have a different sound and I just found the ht5 to be a little more natural soundings (lifelike). I do wonder with more time on the sa250 if I would eventually prefer it’s sound. It sounds fuller, less grain, wider soundstage that projects more outside of the speakers but i found it a little “digital” sounding or something. Music coming out of it sounded a little more processed. The ht5 in comparison just has the perfect tonality. Maybe different source or pre amp combination would make the difference? Or maybe it he sa250 just so good it’s highlighting artifacts in the mix I generally don’t pick up on? Maybe, but at the end of the day the ht5 just sounds consistently great with ALL music and has been rock solid even though it’s 15+ years old. Both are fantastic sounding amps for sure. The sa250 is the best sounding Emotiva amp I’ve heard by a decent margin, but sadly, any fantasy I had about it being rock solid in terms of reliability have now vanished. |
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