wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30 
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Post by wvu80 on May 17, 2018 22:10:58 GMT -5
Is the standard connection TRS or TS? If TS, use the cable or one like it from my link, maybe 15 posts BACK. I ordered the TS. I started with your link for a 10 footer and found two 6 foot cables for the same price.
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Post by RichGuy on May 17, 2018 23:08:55 GMT -5
And it was stated repeatedly. Protection means hundreds of thousands of joules must dissipate somewhere. Properly earthed 'whole house' protection means hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Then a surge or spike (also called lightning) is not inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. Then superior protection already inside appliances is not overwhelmed. Facilities that cannot have damage even 100 years ago did and do this. Because an effective protector (which means protection from lightning and other such surges) always has a low impedance (ie hardwire not inside metallic conduit) connection to single point earth ground. Protectors never do protection. Effective protectors always have that low impedance connection to earth. Profit center protectors have no earth ground, do not claim to protect from typically destructive surges, fail on surges too tiny to damage appliances, and are promoted to consumers who all but want to be scammed. Definitely NOT my words. |
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Post by millst on May 18, 2018 10:04:23 GMT -5
The mono one is standard for the trigger cable. That should always work.
However, I'm fairly sure I've successfully used a stereo version before on some equipment. YMMV depending on what equipment you have. Ideally, devices on both ends use the tip and the lowest part of the sleeve so that the cable doesn't matter. Obviously, that's not the case.
-tm
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 21, 2018 17:50:03 GMT -5
This will be a short post, followed up by another more in-depth. +++ I got my mono M-M 3.5 mm TS cable in. It did not work. In fact the XPA-5 started with the blue light on even with the Onk 717 turned off and never went to orange. I could manually switch it to orange. Confirmation: I double checked my Onk 717 manual and Zone 2 is a 12v trigger. Confirmation: The stereo cable should work as well. I found a Youtube vid showing an Emotiva ET-3 12v trigger box. All three cables included with the Emo kit were stereo. www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBgJn241KNc |
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 21, 2018 18:09:11 GMT -5
I used a cheap $10 Sperry SP-5A analog multi-meter. I am not confident with a MM so I'd like some help.
I used DC mA 250. I had to use Red on the tip, Black on the sheath. Reversing the leads showed an open circuit.
The reading on the 250 mA scale if I'm correct read 102, or just a notch past 100 mA.
Comments? Suggestions?
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2018 20:00:08 GMT -5
Meter as you used it, for CURRENT, should probably show 'positive' current with probes one way and 'negative' current with probes reversed.
Open circuit from a current meter?
I don't know why you'd use a stereo cable (3 wires) with a circuit which I understand is essentially 'on' or 'off'.
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 21, 2018 20:45:49 GMT -5
Meter as you used it, for CURRENT, should probably show 'positive' current with probes one way and 'negative' current with probes reversed. Open circuit from a current meter? I know I didn't put that well. I was trying to say the MM only worked Pos to Pos, Neg to Neg. In other words no success in getting auto on or auto off with either cable. I don't know why you'd use a stereo cable (3 wires) with a circuit which I understand is essentially 'on' or 'off'. I used a stereo cable because that was what I had. 
In trying to get my 12v trigger to work the Emo Collective suggested using a mono cable. They have both functioned the same.
At this point I am looking suspiciously at my 2014 Onk 717 AVR which has 12v out only on Zone2. I'm still not sure what current the Onk is outputting, although the manual claims 12v.
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2018 21:54:38 GMT -5
Voltage and current are 2 different things, the PRODUCT of which is 'power'. Volts X Amps = Watts or.....in the shorthand of the electrical types? P=IE. 'Pie' for short. 12 volts @ 1 amp is 12 watts which is a lot of power for a mere signal circuit. USB is only a couple watts, maybe 1/2 amp = 500ma. (milliamps) You could insert your meter IN SERIES with the trigger cable and press 'go' to see current. It won't be much at all. Those kinds of cable are Not Meant for much current capacity with voltage limit being based on insulation type and thickness, not to mention the connectors at each end and on the cable itself. Sure, Stereo cable worked for 'ya. That's a good thing. I just have no real experience with this connection, always having done 'other' things, For example? My amps have signal sensing. Turn on preamp and source. The signal is sensed and takes the amps OUT of standby. I could do something similar with time delay using my Power Conditioner but I've never experimented with THAT, either. hometheaterhifi.com/blogs/little-things-triggering-multiple-amplifiers-from-a-single-12v-trigger/While actual current is NOT mentioned, the article does note that SOME gear is OK with the Stereo (TRS) connector while other stuff prefers the Mono connector (TS) Your AVR SHOULD have enough current to drive the FIRST component in a series with this component driving the next in line and so forth. You MIGHT get away with a 'splitter', but within the limits noted in the article. |
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 21, 2018 22:19:42 GMT -5
Voltage and current are 2 different things, the PRODUCT of which is 'power'. Volts X Amps = Watts or.....in the shorthand of the electrical types? P=IE. 'Pie' for short. You could insert your meter IN SERIES with the trigger cable and press 'go' to see current. It won't be much at all. Those kinds of cable are Not Meant for much current capacity with voltage limit being based on insulation type and thickness, not to mention the connectors at each end and on the cable itself. Sure, Stereo cable worked for 'ya. That's a good thing. (snip!) First, thank you for the clear explanation. I was a psych major which means all I am qualified to do is ask you how you feel about it. 
The stereo and mono cables both operated the same, neither worked for me.
You did get me to thinking, this is a 12v "trigger." Does that mean it puts out a "jolt" or is it continuous? I get the impression by my multi-meter is is continuous and never off. That includes when the AVR is switched "off" which is technically stand-by.
Did you have an opinion on my reading of the multi-meter on the mono cable from 12v trigger out of the AVR? When set to DC mA at 250 I get a reading of about 100. I don't know how much voltage that is.
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2018 22:35:38 GMT -5
FIRST? 100ma is 0.10 amp which TIMES the 12 volts results in 1.2 WATTS. A not unreasonable measure, IMO, barring someone who KNOWS what this stuff should measure. Such low current readings should be done with CARE and as hands-off as possible. Your body can apparently actually induce a small current which will adversly effect such readings. Have a friend who can SOLDER, make you up some SHORT (100mm) 'Alligator Clip' leads. www.walmart.com/ip/Unique-Bargains-10-Pcs-Red-Black-Insulated-Alligator-Clips-Test-Lead-Crocodile-Clamps/45515495As they taught you in any Bio or Anatomy class, nerves are Electro-Chemical. Thus? The 'Magnetic Personality'. If the 12v trigger DIDN'T work from the AVR, than I'd go thru the SETUP again. If you DID measure 100ma, why DIDN'T that work would be next on the list. Fly me out wherever and I'll fix it Gratis. AS for 'jolt' or 'continuous' ? If you have a trigger that works, LISTEN to it. I slight 'click' when enabled is a relay. If it clicks again when shut off, it is a continuous current, probably. You should be able to EASILY determine this with your meter. I'd use the meter on VOLTS and across the 2 wires in the connector. At least of the MONO wire. Using the stereo wire will require a little experimentation to determine the current carrying wires. Use the 20 volt scale, that one is high enough in value to NOT 'pin' the meter (over range) or be influenced by 'BioElectricity'. That help? You DO know the difference between SERIES and PARALLEL, don't you? We may have to start with VERY basic terminology. |
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Post by teaman on May 21, 2018 22:58:10 GMT -5
KeithLDo you have an idea on where we are going wrong? Trying to get the trigger thing figured out. Thank you in advance Tim
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Post by teaman on May 21, 2018 23:01:22 GMT -5
FIRST? 100ma is 0.10 amp which TIMES the 12 volts results in 1.2 WATTS. A not unreasonable measure, IMO, barring someone who KNOWS what this stuff should measure. Such low current readings should be done with CARE and as hands-off as possible. Your body can apparently actually induce a small current which will adversly effect such readings. Have a friend who can SOLDER, make you up some SHORT (100mm) 'Alligator Clip' leads. www.walmart.com/ip/Unique-Bargains-10-Pcs-Red-Black-Insulated-Alligator-Clips-Test-Lead-Crocodile-Clamps/45515495As they taught you in any Bio or Anatomy class, nerves are Electro-Chemical. Thus? The 'Magnetic Personality'. If the 12v trigger DIDN'T work from the AVR, than I'd go thru the SETUP again. If you DID measure 100ma, why DIDN'T that work would be next on the list. Fly me out wherever and I'll fix it Gratis. AS for 'jolt' or 'continuous' ? If you have a trigger that works, LISTEN to it. I slight 'click' when enabled is a relay. If it clicks again when shut off, it is a continuous current, probably. You should be able to EASILY determine this with your meter. I'd use the meter on VOLTS and across the 2 wires in the connector. At least of the MONO wire. Using the stereo wire will require a little experimentation to determine the current carrying wires. Use the 20 volt scale, that one is high enough in value to NOT 'pin' the meter (over range) or be influenced by 'BioElectricity'. That help? You DO know the difference between SERIES and PARALLEL, don't you? We may have to start with VERY basic terminology. Appreciative of the help but I don't think the sarcasm is of benefit to any of us. I'm no whiz with this kind of stuff and basic terminology would help me to better understand exactly what is going on. |
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2018 23:06:49 GMT -5
What sarcasm? I'm not picking on anybody, least of all you! If you are referring to my series / parallel remark? I'm serious. Based on wvu80 using a current scale to measure the 12v trigger, I'd say I'm on reasonable ground.
I really do NOT know what wvu80 does or does not know. His reference in his post about measuring current tells me that much.
Please add to the help for that poor fellow.
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Post by socketman on May 21, 2018 23:22:45 GMT -5
The op needs to use the mono cable , plug it into the onkyo set his dvom to 20v scale and use aligator clips on the cable and observe the voltage on the dvom when the onkyo is power cycled.
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Post by teaman on May 22, 2018 1:05:03 GMT -5
What sarcasm? I'm not picking on anybody, least of all you! If you are referring to my series / parallel remark? I'm serious. Based on wvu80 using a current scale to measure the 12v trigger, I'd say I'm on reasonable ground. I really do NOT know what wvu80 does or does not know. His reference in his post about measuring current tells me that much. Please add to the help for that poor fellow. That's cool. I just thought you were trying to be a smart ass....lol. Honestly there is so much I still don't know that the more I read posts like this, the more it helps me. Tim |
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Post by leonski on May 22, 2018 1:32:15 GMT -5
Thank you for keeping me Honest.
I AM a very cynical person after 65+ years of being a memeber of the 'Human Zoo'.
But sometimes I DO OVERSHOOT from cynacism to sarcasm!
Let's stick with wvu80 and assist him in getting this figured out......
I may find the instruction manual for his AVR and see what it says about the 12v trigger.
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 22, 2018 6:06:19 GMT -5
 FIRST? 100ma is 0.10 amp which TIMES the 12 volts results in 1.2 WATTS. A not unreasonable measure, IMO, barring someone who KNOWS what this stuff should measure. I changed the scale to DCV and set the meter at 50. It read 12. So far so good.
Such low current readings should be done with CARE and as hands-off as possible. Your body can apparently actually induce a small current which will adversly effect such readings. My hands did not induce any current in the readings. The body is a poor conductor.
Have a friend who can SOLDER, make you up some SHORT (100mm) 'Alligator Clip' leads. I've put together several crossovers using a Hakko FX888D-23BY Digital Soldering Station. I'm not the greatest but I can put two wires together. www.walmart.com/ip/Unique-Bargains-10-Pcs-Red-Black-Insulated-Alligator-Clips-Test-Lead-Crocodile-Clamps/45515495As they taught you in any Bio or Anatomy class, nerves are Electro-Chemical. Thus? The 'Magnetic Personality'. If the 12v trigger DIDN'T work from the AVR, than I'd go thru the SETUP again. If you DID measure 100ma, why DIDN'T that work would be next on the list. No, why didn't it work is first on the list. I toggled the 12v trigger on from the menu, the SETUP doesn't address the 12v trigger. There is no question there is no output with Zone2 not enabled. With Zone2 enabled I am getting 12v, but it is continuous. When the AVR goes off (into standby) the voltage doesn't to to zero as expected.Fly me out wherever and I'll fix it Gratis. AS for 'jolt' or 'continuous' ? If you have a trigger that works, LISTEN to it. I slight 'click' when enabled is a relay. If it clicks again when shut off, it is a continuous current, probably. You should be able to EASILY determine this with your meter. There is no "click." When the AVR is on the front display shows me all my active speakers and that the Z2 is enabled , but when shut off the speaker indicator lights go off, the Z2 light remains on.I'd use the meter on VOLTS and across the 2 wires in the connector. At least of the MONO wire. Using the stereo wire will require a little experimentation to determine the current carrying wires. I am not using the stereo cable. When I got the mono cable I have been using that exclusively.
Use the 20 volt scale, that one is high enough in value to NOT 'pin' the meter (over range) or be influenced by 'BioElectricity'. That help? You DO know the difference between SERIES and PARALLEL, don't you? We may have to start with VERY basic terminology. Yes, I do know the difference between series and parallel, but I don't know what it has to do with the Zone2 12v trigger from the Onk not doing it's thing to turn the XPA-5 on and off.
The problem is with Zone2 enabled and connected to the Emo the Emo is ON all the time (blue light). Turning off the Onk (going into standby) does not affect the Emo because it seems the voltage never drops to zero.
I am using the Onk 717 as a pre-pro but the implementation of the 12v trigger is not what I expected. I don't think a dedicated pre-pro would be having this problem.
Unless someone comes up with something else for me to try or test I will probably abandon trying to use the 12v trigger function of the Onk. I have an auto-sensing surge protector which toggles the XPA-5 into stand-by mode (orange), then all the off (no light).
Turning the XPA-5 on manually and then auto off seems like the best I can do using the Onk 717 as a pre-pro.
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Post by millst on May 22, 2018 10:38:42 GMT -5
Follow socketman's advice with the multimeter. Connect the black to the sleeve and the red to the tip. You should get 12v when the trigger is active and nothing when it's not (it's not a pulse, it's constant). The results will determine where the fault lies.
-tm
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Post by leonski on May 22, 2018 12:36:22 GMT -5
From wvu80:
"No, why didn't it work is first on the list. I toggled the 12v trigger on from the menu, the SETUP doesn't address the 12v trigger. There is no question there is no output with Zone2 not enabled. With Zone2 enabled I am getting 12v, but it is continuous. When the AVR goes off (into standby) the voltage doesn't to to zero as expected."
That's very clear, thank you. And indicates, IMO, a problem with the AVR. I would hope that when AVR to standby, the Zone#2 trigger output would go to Zero Volts. Sorry if I seem harsh. It wasn't clear to me that you knew series from parallel based on your
statements. I would not have used the current scale (ma) for this measure until after I had perhaps confirmed voltage was present. I don't know what the standard calls for, but 100ma should be MORE than enough. To install the meter In Series with one wire of the trigger to measure current would be a hassle for me.
Your 'work around' using your outlet strip is good. At least for now. If the AVR is working AS Onkyo Intended, it is NOT as useful as it might have been, especially given the way most people use the device.
Any help from the dealer or fellow owner, or just a neighbor who has a device with trigger output?
And yes, the human body is fairly high resistance. But also seems to have a SMALL amount of current associated with it. Very high sensitivity readings can be effected by touching probes. On the 200mv scale, DC, I get about -30mv and similar on 2v scale. nothing on higher scales. In both cases, touching the probe tips together INSTANTLY renderrs the reading to Zero. No effect on AC volts. I also get 'nonsense' readings on the 20MegOhm and 2MegOhm resistance scales. In all resistance scales, touching probe tips together gives zero or near zero measured result. Even when I worked in the field, the company's provided Fluke or Beckman meter would do similar stuff. My meter these days is functional but cheap
I
I just looked at the Onkyo manual. I SEE the picture with the trigger connector but before I could find written reference, my Eyes Crossed! Wow. What a book. Is there some MODE where it'll do what you want? 'Direct' or some such? I see pages of mode / output choices for biamp and more. Will Onkyo help in any way? I'd give 'em a call and keep fingers crossed.
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wvu80
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by wvu80 on May 22, 2018 14:23:33 GMT -5
Follow socketman's advice with the multimeter. Connect the black to the sleeve and the red to the tip. You should get 12v when the trigger is active and nothing when it's not (it's not a pulse, it's constant). The results will determine where the fault lies. -tm I already did that, maybe that post "passed" by your post. 
I am getting 12v with Zone2 active and when the Onk is turned off (technically standby) the voltage does NOT go to zero, it remains at 12v.
The XPA-5 responds by turning ON (blue) and when the Onk is turned off the XPA-5 remains ON (blue).
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