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Post by leonski on Jul 16, 2018 17:55:38 GMT -5
Of course, long term 'derate' is 20% so your 1800 watt (provided you actually have 120vac) is only 1440 watts. A total of maybe 12 amps. Which is still a lot of current.
I'd actually like to know LINE VOLTAGE from novisnick when he cranks it up. That's the real best excuse to run 12ga or 10ga on a 20 amp breaker.
Here in the summer, I start turning stuff OFF when I see 115 or less. In winter, my voltage hovers just UNDER 120 most of the time. Current draw to ding it 5 volts is HUGE considering the size of the grid.
Don't come close? What is transformer size on each respective amp? I think the XPA-1 is 1200va EACH. If nothing else, that's an indicator of Potential turn-on surge. Amps of that capacity probably, or SHOULD
have some form of built-in soft start. Usually a thermistor.
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Post by craigl59 on Jul 16, 2018 17:57:28 GMT -5
Think novisnick is right and that 15 amps is fine. ALSO, Emotiva sends out a 15 amp power cord and this suggests to me that the unit should never draw more.
NOW...am having the 2 air cooling units delivered today and will install them and check out their abilities with Class A operation. WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW is whether there is an ideal temperature for class A operation. As cool as possible? Can you get the mono too cool -- does it have to be a certain temperature to operate best?
Let me know Emotiva gurus; you folks are the best.
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Post by craigl59 on Jul 16, 2018 18:03:04 GMT -5
leonski:
Think it might make sense for me to get 40 feet of the Belden to go from my dining room (20 amps) to one of the monos. Are there regular shaped plugs that will carry 20 amps (as opposed to 15)? The outlets in the dining room are regular shape but the Romax behind carries 20 amps.
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Post by donh50 on Jul 16, 2018 18:07:28 GMT -5
Makes sense -- your concern will be what plug to use -- the 15 and 20 amp plugs are different (although there are adaptors). Have been trying to find out from Emotiva how much amperage the XPA-1 can actually draw but no luck so far. Novisnick has suggested that both monos can be run off of a single 15 amp circuit. I have no idea but have run both off of a 15 amp Furman Elit and they work OK. Believe that the Pangea AC9 cords will carry 20 amps if you want to supply that much to each mono. At least here (CO, USA) 20-A outlets and 15-A plugs are compatible (30-A plugs are not). The 20-A combo outlets have the crossbar for 20-A plugs but retain the vertical bar for 15-A usage. Wire should follow code, which here is 14-AWG for 15-A circuits and 12-AWG for 20-A circuits. For a couple of runs I would install 10-AWG so you never have to worry about it. Chances are the vast majority of XPA-1 users will be fine running them off a single 15-A outlet because they are using nowhere near max power. |
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Post by DavidR on Jul 16, 2018 18:25:48 GMT -5
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Post by milt99 on Jul 16, 2018 19:39:26 GMT -5
Like Don said, no need to use an actual 20A plug if you have a 20A circuit.
Personally I would and did do a single 20A romex, breaker and a quad outlet.
Think about it, when have you ever thought, I got too damn many outlets?
Depending on where the romex has to go, 10AWG can be a *bleep* to run but you've got 2 guys doing the run and 1 is a pro so have at it!
I would also use a Hubbell Pro-Grade outlet. Lots more metal and far better prong gripping.
The material cost is insignificant.
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Post by leonski on Jul 16, 2018 21:26:26 GMT -5
leonski: Think it might make sense for me to get 40 feet of the Belden to go from my dining room (20 amps) to one of the monos. Are there regular shaped plugs that will carry 20 amps (as opposed to 15)? The outlets in the dining room are regular shape but the Romax behind carries 20 amps. Please see what Donh50 wrote. A 15 amp plug will go into a 15 OR 20 amp outlet. A 20 amp plug will work only in a 20 amp outlet. I'm a perfectionist, I'll admit. Running a pair of XPA-1 on a single 15 amp circuit will work. But if you had Maggies or other very low sensitivity speaker? You might 'redline' it, especially for those who run a SINGLE circuit of 15 amps THAN run everything from the popcorn machine to TV to source components from it. My fallback position would be a single 20 amp circuit for JUST the amps and perhaps add the sub. I won't even belabor the noise factor of running amps and other stuff on a single circuit which has some bad potentials (pardon the pun). Than, another circuit, even the 'house' circuit, for the remainder of your gear. When upgrading and adding another circuit, It's not like the old was THAT bad, but in comparison, i had to 'pop my ears' since it changed so dramatically for the better. As soon as I can warrant a 100 foot buy of the 83803 Belden, I'll be in touch with those who are interested. And at that point, I'll have a more exact than 'around $11.50' pricing. 100 feet is $9.80 per foot at Parts Express. A very reasonable savings. And to Donh50? It's called the NEC for a reason. National Electrical Code. Except for some minor details, it's all pretty much the same. www.nfpa.org/NEC |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 16, 2018 21:38:52 GMT -5
Think novisnick is right and that 15 amps is fine. ALSO, Emotiva sends out a 15 amp power cord and this suggests to me that the unit should never draw more. NOW...am having the 2 air cooling units delivered today and will install them and check out their abilities with Class A operation. WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW is whether there is an ideal temperature for class A operation. As cool as possible? Can you get the mono too cool -- does it have to be a certain temperature to operate best? Let me know Emotiva gurus; you folks are the best. Interestingly Lonnie mentioned that the XPA_1 gen 2 can produce 1700 something watts @ 2 ohms limited by voltage sag! Now what kind of distortion level it does it at , I don't know but that's impressive. They said the reason that it's not rated for 2 ohm loads is that then somebody would stick something under 2 ohms which it's definitely not rated for. Since it is a balanced amp it sees 2 ohm loads as ONE ohm! So a 1 ohm load would be seen as 0.5 ohms which is too much for it. So anyway, yes, this balanced amp is stable to 2 ohm loads unofficially. |
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Post by counterpoint on Jul 16, 2018 21:52:54 GMT -5
I just checked and my panel is all 20A breakers and the main wiring is all 12 gauge. The problem is the 3 outlets that power my HT and the ceiling fan are all on a single breaker. /shrug I'm running a 60" plasma, 2 subs, xpa-5, receiver, dvr, bluray, htpc, occasional misc items. What do you guys think? It might be fine for Bach and Mozart but I still watch movies now and then.
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Post by donh50 on Jul 17, 2018 0:00:08 GMT -5
And to Donh50? It's called the NEC for a reason. National Electrical Code. Except for some minor details, it's all pretty much the same. www.nfpa.org/NECThanks, but I was an electrician for a while before getting the degrees so know (or knew, anyway) the NEC, just didn't feel it worth bringing up here. It has changed significantly since my days, however, with less local leeway and more "European/universal" focus. Some of the stuff they had to do finishing our basement made little sense to me; not sure how much was the new NEC and how much was local code, but since it had to pass inspection didn't really have a say in it. I did have some nice discussions with our electrician about the state of things today. I have two (rear) 370 W subs and a few lights on a 15-A circuit, then the rest of the system (processor, amps, TV, front subs, BD player, etc.) is spread across three 20 A outlets on the front wall. Most folk would be surprised by how little power to the speakers they use in normal operation. I had Maggies before (and in some form since ~1979) so needed higher power; the Revels have a little higher sensitivity but much larger impedance excursions. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 17, 2018 2:10:11 GMT -5
Sure, wide impedance excursions. The real stick in the spokes will be the reactance and the amps reaction TO the reactance. Kind of a reactance reaction, if you get my drift.
The reason I drug NEC into this was that is the primary governing rule for our electric installations. With minor variance, an electrician in New York could move to Illinois or Florida and get along just fine.
Somebody a few posts UP mentions a Plasma TV. In the larger sizes, these can be QUITE power intensive. Just feel the HEAT coming off the darn thing. My heating bill went UP and my A/C bill DOWN after
I swapped my Plasma (only a 50") for a modern OLED.
And : donh50? I like your power setup. I'm out of spots in my panel, can't even add any 'half-width' breakers and the house is only a 100 amp service. My first Maggies were pre-loved MG-1 and they were terrific.
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Post by counterpoint on Jul 17, 2018 6:16:01 GMT -5
It might be fine for Bach and Mozart but I still watch movies now and then. Doh, I forgot about the organ works... |
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Post by craigl59 on Jul 17, 2018 10:02:48 GMT -5
novisnick, leonski:
Finally got the aircom T8 fans installed last night and they are over-the-top good. Superbly well made with heavy metal construction and well-done electronics. They are mostly quiet. Here are my initial results.
Placed the units on Auto and they kick in at 85 degrees. Then the temp slowly rises until the 92-95 range where the fans stabilize the XPA-1 (class A mode, of course). Here the top and case are warm to the touch but not much different than A/B operation. Over a two-hour span of listening the temp remained within the 92-95 range -- roughly 15 to 20 degrees cooler than prior Class A operation.
SO, these units are keepers and I will be getting additional units for the Sanus rack in my winter home. THANKS AGAIN, novisnick for the recco.
Cannot get in touch with CS people at Emotiva and they do not call back. Seems as if something is now different. In any case, have been unable to find out from them the amperage draw of the XPA-1.
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Post by leonski on Jul 17, 2018 13:40:36 GMT -5
BUY a Kill-A-Watt meter. They are commodity cheap. Might be up to 25$ now.
Prior to fan, how'd you measure temp?
Don't forget that heat-sink temp will be higher than you measure....using airflow.
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Post by craigl59 on Jul 17, 2018 13:44:12 GMT -5
Damon from Emotiva returned my calls and was very helpful. Here's the gist of our conversation:
1. As regards amperage draw the unit will never exceed 15 amps nor get close in normal usage
2. A single 15 or 20 amp circuit for two XPA-1s is sufficient for demanding music and HT use
3. Class A quality may improve with higher temperatures and one of their engineers likes the XPA-1Ls at 150 degrees (!); Damien suggested experimentation here and there seems no problem with running the unit at much lower temperatures. Lower temperatures promise increased lifespan
Also checked with him about any possibility AT ALL of additional XPA-1s for sale and answer is a resounding NO.
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Post by teaman on Jul 17, 2018 13:56:05 GMT -5
Damien from Emotiva returned my calls and was very helpful. Here's the gist of our conversation: 1. As regards amperage draw the unit will never exceed 15 amps nor get close in normal usage 2. A single 15 or 20 amp circuit for two XPA-1s is sufficient for demanding music and HT use 3. Class A quality may improve with higher temperatures and one of their engineers likes the XPA-1Ls at 150 degrees (!); Damien suggested experimentation here and there seems no problem with running the unit at much lower temperatures. Lower temperatures promise increased lifespan Also checked with him about any possibility AT ALL of additional XPA-1s for sale and answer is a resounding NO. Damon is a pretty straight shooter. He will usually get you the facts you need. It sucks these amps are discontinued. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 17, 2018 18:09:15 GMT -5
Think novisnick is right and that 15 amps is fine. ALSO, Emotiva sends out a 15 amp power cord and this suggests to me that the unit should never draw more. NOW...am having the 2 air cooling units delivered today and will install them and check out their abilities with Class A operation. WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW is whether there is an ideal temperature for class A operation. As cool as possible? Can you get the mono too cool -- does it have to be a certain temperature to operate best? Let me know Emotiva gurus; you folks are the best. Interestingly Lonnie mentioned that the XPA_1 gen 2 can produce 1700 something watts @ 2 ohms limited by voltage sag! Now what kind of distortion level it does it at , I don't know but that's impressive. They said the reason that it's not rated for 2 ohm loads is that then somebody would stick something under 2 ohms which it's definitely not rated for. Since it is a balanced amp it sees 2 ohm loads as ONE ohm! So a 1 ohm load would be seen as 0.5 ohms which is too much for it. So anyway, yes, this balanced amp is stable to 2 ohm loads unofficially. Which is why testers will use a VARIAC to stabilize line voltage to amp under test. A PAIR of the XPA-1 used in certain conditions SHOULD have a 20 amp service. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 17, 2018 20:00:04 GMT -5
Interestingly Lonnie mentioned that the XPA_1 gen 2 can produce 1700 something watts @ 2 ohms limited by voltage sag! Now what kind of distortion level it does it at , I don't know but that's impressive. They said the reason that it's not rated for 2 ohm loads is that then somebody would stick something under 2 ohms which it's definitely not rated for. Since it is a balanced amp it sees 2 ohm loads as ONE ohm! So a 1 ohm load would be seen as 0.5 ohms which is too much for it. So anyway, yes, this balanced amp is stable to 2 ohm loads unofficially. Which is why testers will use a VARIAC to stabilize line voltage to amp under test. A PAIR of the XPA-1 used in certain conditions SHOULD have a 20 amp service. What do you mean by "stabilize?" If you mean to deliver a constant voltage, a Variac doesn't do that. It only proportionately increases or decreases the incoming voltage and if that voltage varies, so does the output of the Variac. |
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Post by mack71 on Jul 17, 2018 20:10:07 GMT -5
The very good XPA-1 gen2 test, with exact current capabilities, was performed by the Swedes (240 volts); www.hembiobutiken.se/extra/emotiva_xpa1.pdfThink novisnick is right and that 15 amps is fine. ALSO, Emotiva sends out a 15 amp power cord and this suggests to me that the unit should never draw more. NOW...am having the 2 air cooling units delivered today and will install them and check out their abilities with Class A operation. WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW is whether there is an ideal temperature for class A operation. As cool as possible? Can you get the mono too cool -- does it have to be a certain temperature to operate best? Let me know Emotiva gurus; you folks are the best. Interestingly Lonnie mentioned that the XPA_1 gen 2 can produce 1700 something watts @ 2 ohms limited by voltage sag! Now what kind of distortion level it does it at , I don't know but that's impressive. They said the reason that it's not rated for 2 ohm loads is that then somebody would stick something under 2 ohms which it's definitely not rated for. Since it is a balanced amp it sees 2 ohm loads as ONE ohm! So a 1 ohm load would be seen as 0.5 ohms which is too much for it. So anyway, yes, this balanced amp is stable to 2 ohm loads unofficially.
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Post by leonski on Jul 17, 2018 23:06:48 GMT -5
Which is why testers will use a VARIAC to stabilize line voltage to amp under test. A PAIR of the XPA-1 used in certain conditions SHOULD have a 20 amp service. What do you mean by "stabilize?" If you mean to deliver a constant voltage, a Variac doesn't do that. It only proportionately increases or decreases the incoming voltage and if that voltage varies, so does the output of the Variac. EVERY Variac I've ever used has a knob which allows you to up or down the output voltage. As load increases and line voltage drops, you can 'up' the Variac output and continue your test w/'perfect' line voltage. Others persons will 'Wake Up' long dormant gear by giving them maybe 50vac to 60vac for a while to allow Capacitors to reform, than slowly increase the voltage to the rated quantity. Do this over a period of maybe a couple days. By Stabilize? When you take a PAIR of XPA-1 and crank-em-up you will eventually SAG the AC line voltage. Lonnie mentions doing this when driving a 2-ohm load to the limit. The idea is to turn UP the line voltage BACK to 120 or whatever (118 would work, too, right?) but be sure your Variac is rated to that extreme load. I don't know the limits, but I'd suspect that any voltage under 105 could be harmful to the amp under high-load conditions. And the amp simply WON'T put out max rated under those conditions even IF it holds together. www.variac.comCheck the website, please. The highest capacity models are NOT cheap and usually won't be found in someones home, but those few who benchtest gear for a living SHOULD have one. |
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