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Post by seraphic on Nov 26, 2018 15:14:33 GMT -5
Wouldn't "The new Dolby licensing restrictions are also destined to reduce the market penetration of Auro 3D into the US." be a violation of United States antitrust/competition law and thus illegal? Dolby is not targeting Auro specifically, they simply don't want any upmixers (except their own) being used to synthesise more channels (speakers) than are on the disc. The DTS upmixer (Neural) is their primary target as it does great job of upmixing. The DTS algorithm is currently way more effective (less fake sounding) than Dolby's own. Dolby's "excuse" is that they don't want people playing with the sound output that Atmos produces. They run the spin that the movie sound engineer/mixer used Atmos to get the sound that they want and we shouldn't play with it. Problem is they then provide their own upmixer, Ooooops, liar liar pants on fire.  FWIW I prefer Neural to Auro for upmixing 7.1.4 Atmos to more channels, however both are superior to Dolby's surround upmixer. Auro is really good for multi channel music eg; SACD's. Cheers Gary
Isn't Auro3D's Auro-Matic upmixer its own stand alone upmixer though? Why is there all Dolby does this and Dolby doesn't allow that talk? Why does Dolby even get brought up if Auro3D's Auro-Matic does its own thing?
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 26, 2018 15:32:42 GMT -5
I think there is a bit of a disconnect here about how all this works. The "Pinned" channels are used for streaming purposes to keep the amount of data to reasonable levels. Theatrical and BluRays are not pinned. Even if a signal is pinned, lets say 7.1.4 and you have a 9.1.6 system, the DSU will take the object channels, run them through the appropriate algorithm and give you 9.1.6. That is what the DSU does. For example. Lets say you are streaming a movie which has x.x.4 Pinned channels. but your actual system has x.x.6 speakers. The system architecture knows you have two additional height channels. The front and back pinned channels are sent to the front and back and the DSU will run the algorithm to move the object from front, to middle to back. In this way they "honor the mixing engineer's intent". I hope this makes since. Lonnie .....DSU is an upmixer of non ATMOS content....so your saying this isnt the case? Me too... which is why I'm confused. I also believe, lonnie , that at least Disney also "pins" their physical discs. I'd be more than happy to be wrong and hope that it "does" work exactly as you say...  |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 26, 2018 15:34:10 GMT -5
I think there is a bit of a disconnect here about how all this works. The "Pinned" channels are used for streaming purposes to keep the amount of data to reasonable levels. Theatrical and BluRays are not pinned. Even if a signal is pinned, lets say 7.1.4 and you have a 9.1.6 system, the DSU will take the object channels, run them through the appropriate algorithm and give you 9.1.6. That is what the DSU does. For example. Lets say you are streaming a movie which has x.x.4 Pinned channels. but your actual system has x.x.6 speakers. The system architecture knows you have two additional height channels. The front and back pinned channels are sent to the front and back and the DSU will run the algorithm to move the object from front, to middle to back. In this way they "honor the mixing engineer's intent". I hope this makes since. Lonnie .....DSU is an upmixer of non ATMOS content....so your saying this isnt the case? Me too... which is why I'm confused. I also believe, Lonnie , that (at least) Disney also "pins" their physical discs. I'd be more than happy to be wrong and hope that it "does" work exactly as you say... |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Nov 26, 2018 15:38:37 GMT -5
I think there is a bit of a disconnect here about how all this works. The "Pinned" channels are used for streaming purposes to keep the amount of data to reasonable levels. Theatrical and BluRays are not pinned. Even if a signal is pinned, lets say 7.1.4 and you have a 9.1.6 system, the DSU will take the object channels, run them through the appropriate algorithm and give you 9.1.6. That is what the DSU does. For example. Lets say you are streaming a movie which has x.x.4 Pinned channels. but your actual system has x.x.6 speakers. The system architecture knows you have two additional height channels. The front and back pinned channels are sent to the front and back and the DSU will run the algorithm to move the object from front, to middle to back. In this way they "honor the mixing engineer's intent". I hope this makes since. Lonnie this is the first i have EVER heard DSU working on atmos native content.....DSU is an upmixer of non ATMOS content....so your saying this isnt the case? Yes, it works on native Atmos. This is how it has always been. Now with anything, there are limitations to what it can do. But having said that Dolby is working to remove the current limitations. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Nov 26, 2018 15:41:03 GMT -5
Dolby is not targeting Auro specifically, they simply don't want any upmixers (except their own) being used to synthesise more channels (speakers) than are on the disc. The DTS upmixer (Neural) is their primary target as it does great job of upmixing. The DTS algorithm is currently way more effective (less fake sounding) than Dolby's own. Dolby's "excuse" is that they don't want people playing with the sound output that Atmos produces. They run the spin that the movie sound engineer/mixer used Atmos to get the sound that they want and we shouldn't play with it. Problem is they then provide their own upmixer, Ooooops, liar liar pants on fire. FWIW I prefer Neural to Auro for upmixing 7.1.4 Atmos to more channels, however both are superior to Dolby's surround upmixer. Auro is really good for multi channel music eg; SACD's. Cheers Gary Isn't Auro3D's Auro-Matic upmixer its own stand alone upmixer though? Why is there all Dolby does this and Dolby doesn't allow that talk? Why does Dolby even get brought up if Auro3D's Auro-Matic does its own thing?
The only reason this is brought up is because some people want to run Dolby encoded material through the Aura up mixer. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Nov 26, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -5
this is the first i have EVER heard DSU working on atmos native content.....DSU is an upmixer of non ATMOS content....so your saying this isnt the case? Me too... which is why I'm confused. I also believe, lonnie , that at least Disney also "pins" their physical discs. I'd be more than happy to be wrong and hope that it "does" work exactly as you say... Drop on by anytime and you can see it for yourself.  We have a full 9.1.6 setup here. Lonnie |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 26, 2018 15:48:57 GMT -5
The way in which Dolby now words it perplexes me. They say that, with Atmos, the DSU will "honor the mixing engineer's intent". But we now see that it has become a trend (when disclosed) that Atmos mixes are "pinned" at 7.1.4. Without the use of an upmixer, what happens to the additional two "height" channels in a 7.1.6 system...? I assume that if Dolby is true to their word, only 4 of the 6 height channels are utilized. I should have followed the many pages of discussion in this thread more closely, but at that time, I thought Emotiva's "proprietary" upmixer would take care of it. I have not yet taken the Atmos plunge, but it may be next on my list. So, without having to backtrack, the short answer is what...? I think there is a bit of a disconnect here about how all this works. The "Pinned" channels are used for streaming purposes to keep the amount of data to reasonable levels. Theatrical and BluRays are not pinned. Even if a signal is pinned, lets say 7.1.4 and you have a 9.1.6 system, the DSU will take the object channels, run them through the appropriate algorithm and give you 9.1.6. That is what the DSU does. For example. Lets say you are streaming a movie which has x.x.4 Pinned channels. but your actual system has x.x.6 speakers. The system architecture knows you have two additional height channels. The front and back pinned channels are sent to the front and back and the DSU will run the algorithm to move the object from front, to middle to back. In this way they "honor the mixing engineer's intent". I hope this makes since. Lonnie Hi Lonnie, I have a number of BD and 4K discs that are pinned 7.1.4, quite a lot in fact, mostly Disney which are labelled "Atmos 7.1.4". When I played them using a Storm 32 processor they only played out of 7.1.4 channels/speakers. That's without an up mixer, switch on Neural for example and it expands to the available channels/speakers. I have some streamed content that pays 5.1.2 which seems to me to be utilising the Dolby offering of Atmos over Dolby Digital 5.1, which is their bandwidth saving product. As a result it's lossy and doesn't sound as good as the same programming played off a disc, that's with Atmos over Dolby True HD, which is not lossless. When I say it doesn't sound as good that's not referring to the lesser number of channels/speakers, it's that the sound quality itself isn't as good. I also have a number of DTS-X discs and they al play 7.1.4, which I understand is what they are supposed to do. Again add Neural and it expands to whatever channels/speakers are available. That's what I have experienced myself, with over 20 movies. Cheers Gary |
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Post by usxplong on Nov 26, 2018 16:58:51 GMT -5
This place is too busy with Atmos rather than where is shipping of RMC-1. We need reviews.
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 26, 2018 18:13:12 GMT -5
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Post by lrobertson on Nov 26, 2018 21:58:22 GMT -5
I thought the DSU had some updates maybe this is one?? I wonder if Lonnie’s experience behind the DSU is limited to this version if he’s saying it’s always been and there are those that disagree. Either way if he’s right that is great!
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Post by cwt on Nov 27, 2018 1:55:35 GMT -5
Hi Lonnie, I have a number of BD and 4K discs that are pinned 7.1.4, quite a lot in fact, mostly Disney which are labelled "Atmos 7.1.4". When I played them using a Storm 32 processor they only played out of 7.1.4 channels/speakers. That's without an up mixer, switch on Neural for example and it expands to the available channels/speakers. I have some streamed content that pays 5.1.2 which seems to me to be utilising the Dolby offering of Atmos over Dolby Digital 5.1, which is their bandwidth saving product. As a result it's lossy and doesn't sound as good as the same programming played off a disc, that's with Atmos over Dolby True HD, which is not lossless. When I say it doesn't sound as good that's not referring to the lesser number of channels/speakers, it's that the sound quality itself isn't as good. The sound quality you experience Gary equates well to the delivery method. The " bandwidth saving product " is dolby digital plus which can support more full bandwidth audio channels than dd5.1[5 compared to 15] at a higher bit rate ; but of course it isn't lossless and the bit rate is variable so multi channel sound can be downrezed due to those bandwidth restrictions  Lets hope that DSU will get front wide capabilities for a start |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 27, 2018 3:48:36 GMT -5
Lets hope that DSU will get front wide capabilities for a start With DTS Neural it simply upmixes to whatever channels/speakers you have told the processor that you have. It uses a very sophisticated algorithm to place the sound, which with my limited exposure works very well. Sounds very "real" not at all "fake' like Dolby Pro Logic. Cheers Gary |
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Post by cwt on Nov 27, 2018 4:15:51 GMT -5
Lets hope that DSU will get front wide capabilities for a start With DTS Neural it simply upmixes to whatever channels/speakers you have told the processor that you have. It uses a very sophisticated algorithm to place the sound, which with my limited exposure works very well. Sounds very "real" not at all "fake' like Dolby Pro Logic. Cheers Gary Good to hear Gary ; sounds like its more circumspect with what it sends to the ceilings's ; a tad more discrete maybe . Read somewhere if you don't apply say DSU to a 7.1.6 setup with a pinned 7.1.4 soundtrack the middle height is ignored and back/front pans aren't as good as with just the 4 ceiling speakers . Good thing the RMC1 can apply an upmixer at least.. |
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Post by Delco on Nov 29, 2018 15:55:33 GMT -5
Me too... which is why I'm confused. I also believe, lonnie , that at least Disney also "pins" their physical discs. I'd be more than happy to be wrong and hope that it "does" work exactly as you say... Drop on by anytime and you can see it for yourself. We have a full 9.1.6 setup here. Lonnie Hey Lonnie, Any plans to add IMAX decoding to the RMC-1? |
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Post by cwt on Nov 30, 2018 5:52:32 GMT -5
Hey Lonnie, Any plans to add IMAX decoding to the RMC-1? Maybe when they start releasing enough IMAX discs and its a recognised standard ; not very confident  Lonnie did mention something concerning dolby coming so whatever dsp mode comes will be good |
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Post by theblackangus on Dec 8, 2018 8:33:10 GMT -5
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this up-mixing part too.
I run 9.1 (wides) today and will be running 9.1.4 at my end game.
Today I can apply Nerual or DSX to spread the bed channels from 7 to 9 speakers. I really like this affect in my room since its about 20' wide and my L/R's are about 3.5' from each side wall.
My understanding is that Dolby has said that if you are decoding ATMOS content you are not allowed to use a 3rd party up-mixer with that content going forward. (So no using Nerual or Auro3d upmixers to spread the bed channels to the front wide speakers)
Also my understanding is that DSU doesn't upmix the bed channels to the wide position (or anything in between the front L/R if you have 5 fronts).
Is this correct?
Also can I still use Auro3d or Nerual to upmix to front wides on TrueHD content, or does Dolbys new licensing agreement remove that capability?
If the above is true does the RMC-1 provide a way to copy the side channels to a pair of sides that are independently level and distance controlled?
Thanks!
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Post by cwt on Dec 9, 2018 0:39:26 GMT -5
My understanding is that Dolby has said that if you are decoding ATMOS content you are not allowed to use a 3rd party up-mixer with that content going forward. (So no using Nerual or Auro3d upmixers to spread the bed channels to the front wide speakers) Also my understanding is that DSU doesn't upmix the bed channels to the wide position (or anything in between the front L/R if you have 5 fronts). Is this correct? Yes ;"Native Dolby Atmos content shall NOT be up-mixed, surround or height virtualized by any 3rd party competitor upmixer (ie. DTS or Auro-3D)". But if its proprietary and not licensed to others '"Dolby will permit 3rd party upmixing and/or surround virtualization of channel-based codecs that support Dolby Atmos rendering as long as the 3rd party doesn't license their own upmixing technologies to 3rd parties.'' If Emo decided to license the older dts neo x upmixer ;you would have your wides back again ..within the dolby constraints of course.. ''Also can I still use Auro3d or Nerual to upmix to front wides on TrueHD content, or does Dolbys new licensing agreement remove that capability?" Yes ;its not just atmos "Channel-Based DD/DD+, Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and 7.1 codecs shall not be height virtualized by any 3rd party upmixer (ie. DTS)." Yes ignores the wides Maybe p.m. Deewan on the surround duplication he's running dual surrounds |
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Post by lrobertson on Dec 9, 2018 10:25:03 GMT -5
Then again Lonnie recently suggested you can upmix a pinned 7.1.4 mix so that would mean you can apply DSU to Atmos. I’m still waiting for verification from someone with a 9.1.6 or 7.1.6 setup.
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Post by cwt on Dec 9, 2018 11:46:36 GMT -5
Then again Lonnie recently suggested you can upmix a pinned 7.1.4 mix so that would mean you can apply DSU to Atmos. I’m still waiting for verification from someone with a 9.1.6 or 7.1.6 setup. Yes dsu to atmos is ok ; shame neural x isn't Like many I just considered dsu was an upmixer for channel based audio alone but then I reread how Craig Eggers [dolby head honcho] described it and taking it literally reads like it can be used for object audio ; citing the key words "atmos enabled" . What do you reckon ? Read more at www.soundandvision.com/content/meet-new-dolby-surround#zE5HPOLZVmSw8G9j.99 |
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Post by lrobertson on Dec 9, 2018 12:16:45 GMT -5
Yeah I guess so. I was skeptical but that is a relief after all the talk I’ve heard of pinned. I’m anxious to hear the difference or hear from the people who already have the RMC.
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Lonnie did mention something concerning dolby coming so whatever dsp mode comes will be good 