KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Sept 5, 2018 17:09:09 GMT -5
Antenna amplifiers do amplify both signal and noise - which hopefully makes the front end in the tuner more able to sort them out. (Most tuners have better selectivity - which is the ability to pick signals apart from each other - when you have a stronger signal.) HOWEVER, if you have multiple stations on the same frequency in different directions your only real solution is a directional antenna.
The best solution - by far - IS a directional antenna. And, yes, the best solution for you would be a rotor. (And a smallish antenna with a rotor may actually fit in your attic).
If you look at the specs on antennas you'll find that going from tiny to a few feet long increases performance considerably... While moving from medium sized to huge doesn't gain you nearly as much...
There is actually another solution - that may seem a little goofy but may actually be practical for you. There are some smaller antennas that are actually pretty good - and pretty directional - and pretty cheap. You could actually get two or three small, low cost, reasonably directional antennas... and switch between them. You would have to be careful to arrange them so they don't block each other...... It would also be possible to combine the signals between multiple antennas onto a single wire...
But that makes things more complicated and reduces your signal strength from each quite a bit.
You will also find that a REALLY high performance tuner might help matters somewhat. (You can get some really impressive tuners used on eBay for a few hundred bucks.... unfortunately, it's hard to know how well they're working, and if they're still properly calibrated.)
Antenna amps SEEM to amplify noise as well as signal. Several commercial solutions including stuff like the TERK amplified antenna. Mainly for Urban / Indoor use, as near as I can tell. I'm in an awful spot and would go for something more directional, to increase gain. My location is between several markets. LA is far to the north. SD is to the south and Riverside is......out THERE. Trouble is? Higher gain antenna is more directional so I'd have to choose which market I was interested in most. OR install a rotor. That would make the whole deal MUCH more $$$ than I would wish to spend. a LOT. Rotor system will not fit in attic so I'd have to go outside and then the problems start with HOA and the rest. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 5, 2018 20:40:36 GMT -5
Sensitivity and selectivity are just 2 measures of FM receiver performance.
My semi-rural situation would need good sensitivity, maybe high-blend and maybe even a mono switch (increases quieting)
While the dial isn't so crowded as to require monster selectivity. And ZERO multipath issues. I hope.
My situation is simply the following.
Outer zone of at least 2, maybe 3 markets, depending on how you count San Bernardino (The Inland Empire!)
I don't have a lot of metal buildings around me. None, in fact, except for an antenna farm about 1/4 mile west.
So I don't have a Multipath Problem.....where a signal is absorbed by metal and retransmitted a short time later.
This gives you the 'ghost image' situation and puts a premium on selectivity, the signal already being pretty strong.
The MAIN market (Los Angeles) is mainly to my NNW, which is good, since to my west and south is a pretty large
slope which puts me in a signal shadow.
To my SSE would be San Diego. Not as many desireable stations, but it IS closer.
I'd thought of multiple antennas, but would need additional support and maybe switching between them.
Attic space is not 'cramped' but certainly not generous, either.
I'm going to walk / scan my immediate neighborhood and see who has an external antenna. When we first moved
here (about '87 or so) we could get 3 broadcast stations. Sort Of. Even the Magic Rabbit Ears didn't help much.
And when small dish became available (I was an early adopter) one local station sent me not ONE but THREE (3) rejection letters
not granting me a WAIVER, but requiring signal strength testing, the testers certification and some OTHER paperwork. I don't
watch those jerks to this day.
As an aside, my weather radio will pick up the transmitter on Catalina Island but only from the top of the nearest big hill.
My GMRS radios are nearly worthless in these hills an my best case is about a mile or so, staight line to a shopping site.
At one point a LONG time ago (25+ years) I bought the cheapest RadioShack tuner. Nearly worthless with a background hiss
I could NEVER rid myself of. It was so annoying I gave the darn thing away. My Tivoli #1 with a 'T-Antenna' that I built a rotor for
works fine as a garage radio. I can get 3 or 4 decent FM stations and a bunch of stuff I wouldn't wish on ANYBODY.
I've been slowly going thru the Antenna Pages on that wonderful FMTUNERINFO site. But some of the links are to the UK!
I'll call Ham Radio Outlet (local branch) tomorrow and start searching for an antenna dealer who can answer some area specific
questions for me.
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Post by leonski on Sept 5, 2018 20:45:50 GMT -5
A note about tuners:
I've seen a bunch of stuff on Epray. I'd suggest it is 'top market' priced and the ubiquitous 'Tested and Works Fine' is not the last word in 'confidence building'.
If I raised my top $$$ to 200$, I wonder what I could get? I'll check that out. Maybe NAD? Rotel? Adcom? And how good is the tuner part of EMOs Tuner Preamp....at
least in low signal strength areas? Any specs available. Sensitivity / quieting and selectivity would be the main hitters. And even though I'm not a 'big' specs guy, that would
give me something to go on.
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 7, 2018 8:42:07 GMT -5
Antenna amps SEEM to amplify noise as well as signal. Several commercial solutions including stuff like the TERK amplified antenna. Mainly for Urban / Indoor use, as near as I can tell. I'm in an awful spot and would go for something more directional, to increase gain. My location is between several markets. LA is far to the north. SD is to the south and Riverside is......out THERE. Trouble is? Higher gain antenna is more directional so I'd have to choose which market I was interested in most. OR install a rotor. That would make the whole deal MUCH more $$$ than I would wish to spend. a LOT. Rotor system will not fit in attic so I'd have to go outside and then the problems start with HOA and the rest. I feel your pain with this, since I am in the “burbs” and back when I was into FM, it was a nightmare getting the best possible signal from roughly 45 miles away, and two different directions (Connecticut and New York) with a powerful local station bleeding signal into the mix. Amplified antennas were useless with the local station right on top of me, the ONLY answer was a highly directional, non amplified antenna with a rotor. Maybe you can squeeze a small one in the attic with NO rotor, and use the old two guy method. One at the tuner and the other guy in the attic moving it around for the sweet spot. Bill |
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Post by DavidR on Sept 7, 2018 14:27:08 GMT -5
Antenna amps SEEM to amplify noise as well as signal. Several commercial solutions including stuff like the TERK amplified antenna. Mainly for Urban / Indoor use, as near as I can tell. I'm in an awful spot and would go for something more directional, to increase gain. My location is between several markets. LA is far to the north. SD is to the south and Riverside is......out THERE. Trouble is? Higher gain antenna is more directional so I'd have to choose which market I was interested in most. OR install a rotor. That would make the whole deal MUCH more $$$ than I would wish to spend. a LOT. Rotor system will not fit in attic so I'd have to go outside and then the problems start with HOA and the rest. I feel your pain with this, since I am in the “burbs” and back when I was into FM, it was a nightmare getting the best possible signal from roughly 45 miles away, and two different directions (Connecticut and New York) with a powerful local station bleeding signal into the mix. Amplified antennas were useless with the local station right on top of me, the ONLY answer was a highly directional, non amplified antenna with a rotor. Maybe you can squeeze a small one in the attic with NO rotor, and use the old two guy method. One at the tuner and the other guy in the attic moving it around for the sweet spot. Bill A Carver TX-11. TX-11a and the TX-11b with a properly functioning ACCD circuit will sort all this out and pull in weak stations. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 7, 2018 23:05:02 GMT -5
Are schematics of the Carver Tuner readily available along with alignment instructions? If I buy one, the first stop will be the local shop for a 'tune-up'.
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Post by DavidR on Sept 7, 2018 23:25:05 GMT -5
The Owners manual and Service manual are too big to attach. If you want you can PM me your email addy and I will email them or you can go to The Carversite and download them without having to join the site.
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Post by DavidR on Sept 7, 2018 23:29:57 GMT -5
In the upper left find drop down menu (default is Amps)
Click on Tuners Select your tuner model
Find your manual(s)
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 8, 2018 13:33:50 GMT -5
I feel your pain with this, since I am in the “burbs” and back when I was into FM, it was a nightmare getting the best possible signal from roughly 45 miles away, and two different directions (Connecticut and New York) with a powerful local station bleeding signal into the mix. Amplified antennas were useless with the local station right on top of me, the ONLY answer was a highly directional, non amplified antenna with a rotor. Maybe you can squeeze a small one in the attic with NO rotor, and use the old two guy method. One at the tuner and the other guy in the attic moving it around for the sweet spot. Bill A Carver TX-11. TX-11a and the TX-11b with a properly functioning ACCD circuit will sort all this out and pull in weak stations. Those TX Carvers were Great tuners indeed. My 5000 Phase Linear tuner was one of Bob Carver’s original designs, and the Carvers were a step up in the interference rejection department. However not a guarantee or a cure all in every instance. Must integrate properly with the best antenna for the geography, if you get my “drift” ha ha....no pun intended Bill |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 8, 2018 20:08:40 GMT -5
No true personal experience at all, but I remember reading about, listening at the store, getting the sales pitch, and more importantly, having a rival dealer in town say the other guy had the best one ever made, was a Sony EX model from circa 1991 - 1992. It was back when Sony first introduced their EX line of products. There were 2 products that went off the wheels with features and performance. The dual tape deck with direct track access, and the tuner. It could "supposedly" bring in everything and sound awesome doing it. Unfortunately I don't know the model number.
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Post by leonski on Sept 8, 2018 20:22:44 GMT -5
No true personal experience at all, but I remember reading about, listening at the store, getting the sales pitch, and more importantly, having a rival dealer in town say the other guy had the best one ever made, was a Sony EX model from circa 1991 - 1992. It was back when Sony first introduced their EX line of products. There were 2 products that went off the wheels with features and performance. The dual tape deck with direct track access, and the tuner. It could "supposedly" bring in everything and sound awesome doing it. Unfortunately I don't know the model number. somewhere buried in the Extensive Reviews and mountains of information over at the FMTUNER site, you should be able to recover the model number. Sony was active in tuners till fairly recenly and those, of the last model, are getting a premium on Ebay. For some reason. Sony is up against some pretty major competition for Best Tuner Ever honors. The Marantz 10b and something I've never seen called a 'Sequerra' or some such......I know my spelling is Messed Up. www.highperformancestereo.com/tuners/sequerra-original-series-fm-reference-1.html for 3000$ it better be Good! |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 8, 2018 20:22:52 GMT -5
So talking about separate tuners, here's what I would consider something worth buying as a separate tuner, something any EMO processer can't do by itself and why removing the basic tuner makes sense to me. Remove it, then make an all in one tuner that does everthing, not just one part.
FM/AM analog
FM/AM HD digital
Sirius/XM digital
Pandora/Spotify/Tidal (or others)
Wifi/Bluetooth interface
Other (like maybe a Roon endpoint)
This way the processor can do it's job, and the incoming radio and streaming can do its job. And its a product that would sell to masses instead of specific need folks.
Just talking out loud....
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Post by leonski on Sept 8, 2018 20:29:52 GMT -5
I briefly considered suggesting something like that. I see NO specs for the tuner part of the PT-100. I suspect the tuner is a simple 'module' sourced from SAngean or somebody.
If EMO were to go for a good tuner? Maybe at a popular 200$ or maybe 250$ price point? How many would they sell?
How much would it run to ADD a good tuner to the XSP-1? And Call it the XSP-1T?
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 8, 2018 20:55:26 GMT -5
I briefly considered suggesting something like that. I see NO specs for the tuner part of the PT-100. I suspect the tuner is a simple 'module' sourced from SAngean or somebody. If EMO were to go for a good tuner? Maybe at a popular 200$ or maybe 250$ price point? How many would they sell? How much would it run to ADD a good tuner to the XSP-1? And Call it the XSP-1T? That's why I think it needs to be sort of an all in one tuner. Analog, digital, and streamer. Then, and only then would it sell. Dunno, but makes sense to me. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 9, 2018 0:04:12 GMT -5
Add a tuner to a DAC? That's gonna be a T-DAC. Than include some kind of WiFi connectivity. You'll need an APP to control from your phone.
Wanna REALLY have some fun? Include a Phono Input. MC/MM, of course, with some tuning features. Than have a Digital Output. Yep. Digitize the Phono input so you can put your albums to Digital.
You can make SOME of the above as 'modules' with a card-cage style construction. Add a headhone module. The Phono can be 'modular', as well.
Make the PS at least 5x Maximum Anticipated load. That way you'll never run out of headroom or 'sag' the voltage.
Sell the basic as the T-DAC. Phono module includes dedicated Digital Out. Headphone as module or included? Additional module for more digital inputs. Analogue Module for Line Level inputs?
And for the real overachiever.....A Tone Control module. Make 'em semi-parametric with variable turnover frequency, boost/cut AND 'width' of effect.
Depending on what you come up with, you might end up with as many as 3 option slots.
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Sept 29, 2018 23:11:56 GMT -5
Radio is only for in the car when I want news.
It is useless and sounds awful.
- Rich
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 30, 2018 8:59:37 GMT -5
Radio is only for in the car when I want news. It is useless and sounds awful. - Rich Yes and even at that it’s DOA.... You can kick data on in the car and get the headlines FASTER than radio 📻. These days radio news is yesterday’s.... Bill |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 30, 2018 11:48:50 GMT -5
I think if you live in or near a large metropolitan area with good internet speeds, WiFi, and cell coverage, it’s easy to forget (or not to be aware) that large parts of the US don’t have those things. I drive through remote parts of California, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Colorado every year. In many places there’s no cell service to access streaming services, but there’s often FM and of course satellite, we usually go to our iTunes library at those times. Just saying that streaming isn’t the answer to all programming needs.
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Post by leonski on Sept 30, 2018 16:02:27 GMT -5
Yep, lots of stuff including everything Audio lists and more. A buddy had a portable XM receiver.
FM has gone off a cliff, which is not to confuse the current situation with the capability of the system. Good vintage tuners are sought after in places where you
can still get a reasonable signal and good programming.
I briefly worked at an FM station when I was in High School. It was a 10 watt station which did exclusively community stuff and broadcast our sports games.
In the control room was a Level Devil. this thing was part of the problem with current FM fidelity. People are more accustomed to non-compressed or at least minimally compressed
sound from CD and streaming services. This makes what is the new norm in FM of being Way Compressed sound bad.
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Post by jackfish on Sept 30, 2018 19:00:30 GMT -5
There is also incredible low power FM programming in many urban locales. I’ve got a half mile of oak, maple, alder, and doug fir trees between me and the very good KRVM FM in Eugene. So I use the high rez stream from their website. Try it, you’ll like it. I’m evaluating my antenna options for FM stations to the north.
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