|
|
Post by qdtjni on Nov 3, 2018 2:43:05 GMT -5
qdtjni : I personally don't have any interest in defending any snake-oilers, or purveyors of snake-oil, but just as a matter of keeping the record straight : Do any manufacturers, in general, make it a common practice of making public (or making available to consumers) measurements covering the workings of internal components, such as the ones you seem to be demanding? I never asked for that at all! Read again, thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Nov 3, 2018 2:45:49 GMT -5
Nope, I don’t have any measurements either! But do you like what you see? Do you really need measurements to KNOW you like? NOPE, I DONT 🤤  I do have more examples! 😁I also like how the SoTM SMS-200 looks.   |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Nov 3, 2018 3:12:48 GMT -5
Aqvox switch special edition, better look at it predecessor,  That's another example but at least that one has a ground connector so it could help preventing ground loops when using wrong type of CatX (shield connected to both plugs) with equipment using ethernet ports with connection to the shield and no grounding. So when using wrong type of cables with poorly designed equipment it could possibly make things better. It should be noted that their first version seemed to be nothing else than a D-link DGS-108. www.amazon.com/D-Link-Gigabit-Unmanaged-Desktop-DGS-108/dp/B000BCC0LO As for the SoTM switch, it does provide means to galvanically isolate it from the by use SFPs and fiber optic cabling. So where the galvanic isolation that's already built in to ethernet ports is not enough, it may improve things. Since SoTM don't provide SFPs, you then have to get an SFP from some other manufacturer, so in the switch where SoTM did all their magics you all of a sudden don't know if the SFP makes things worse. Besides, the SoTM switch looks suspicially similar to a Netgear GS110TP.  I paid roughly $150 for mine in Dec 2014. Now it's even cheaper. |
|
|
|
Post by sahmen on Nov 3, 2018 3:27:38 GMT -5
qdtjni : I personally don't have any interest in defending any snake-oilers, or purveyors of snake-oil, but just as a matter of keeping the record straight : Do any manufacturers, in general, make it a common practice of making public (or making available to consumers) measurements covering the workings of internal components, such as the ones you seem to be demanding? I never asked for that at all! Read again, thanks you. Sorry if I have misunderstood your point, I really mean that. However, in my own defense, I read your complaint about there being no measurements of the analog stage of some DACs either from manufacturers or reviewers of their products: ********* This is you: " There are none, none from the manufacturers, none from the magazines that normally present measurements in their reviews and almost none from all the community of consumers. Not even a simple audiodiffmaker test. ************ And then you also speak of asking Sonore for some measurements which you did not receive : ************** "EDIT: I already asked J@Sonore about this a few years ago an he didn't share any measurements and was very diplomactic about any sound improvements"
**************
As for "snake oil" part, I think I have read the expression more than once in your posts, and it seems also to be implicit in the points you make in the post about the emperors new clothes, and the effects of expectation biases...
Still it is possible I am not getting some of the real conclusions you want us to draw from your statements, or the intentions behind them, and if that is the case, I'd like to smoke a peace pipe with you and move on  |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Nov 3, 2018 4:27:10 GMT -5
I never asked for that at all! Read again, thanks you. Sorry if I have misunderstood your point, I really mean that. However, in my own defense, I read your complaint about there being no measurements of the analog stage of some DACs either from manufactures and reviewers: ********* This is you: " There are none, none from the manufacturers, none from the magazines that normally present measurements in their reviews and almost none from all the community of consumers. Not even a simple audiodiffmaker test. ************ And then you also speak of asking Sonore for some measurements which you did not receive : ************** "EDIT: I already asked J@Sonore about this a few years ago an he didn't share any measurements and was very diplomactic about any sound improvements"
**************
As for "snake oil" part, I think I have read the expression more than once in your posts, and it seems also to be implicit in the points you make int post about the emperors new clothes, and the effects of expectation biases...
Still it is possible I am not getting some of the real conclusions you want us to draw from your statements, or the intentions behind them, and if that is the case, I'd like to smoke a peace pipe with you and move on Let me try to clarify I have no doubts that a cleaner USB out form these digital players could make difference, even a big one, in some cases with some equipment combinations The we have things like this - Super Clock in the player, not in the receiving end of the USB stream were it could matter, makes a significant improvement?
- Super Clock in an ethernet switch?
Extra ordinary claims calls for extra ordinary evidence, I'm not the one making the extra ordinary claims here am I? Apart from the measurements from the Audioscience guy, which are a bit dodgy, there are no other measurements that I can find. DYohn said such exists, but I have yet to see any reference. So while the manufacturers have their right to choose to not publish any evidence - why don't the magazines and reviewers who normally publish measurements publish anything? Even if they can't detect any improvements, that is at least that, no improvement measured by them. That would be a null evidence and it doesn't mean there's no improvement so it may still be there. It's not like the test would be much different to the tests they already done on multiple DACs, just use the same digital player USB source that normally is used as a reference and then one or a few of the super players from Sonore and SoTM. Keep in mind that I did have a few of these devices and I never experienced the nigh and day difference mentioned by many including fellow board members. I'd be first one to admit that it could well have been expectation bias in my case but that goes both ways. Then again it could have been my combination of equipment and in other combination it does make a that much of a difference. It could also be my hearing not being good enough to detect any improvement. Finally, being open minded goes both ways. |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,098
|
Post by klinemj on Nov 3, 2018 5:45:42 GMT -5
I wish Emotiva would produce a Roon Ready device You are a broken record about this. A broken record to which I would gladly listen all day. I made this comment about the pending thin client streamer...have never heard any official comment from Emotiva. I think Roon-ready is key. So there...that's my contribution to the broken-en-en-en record. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 3, 2018 5:49:21 GMT -5
You are a broken record about this. A broken record to which I would gladly listen all day. I made this comment about the pending thin client streamer...have never heard any official comment from Emotiva. I think Roon-ready is key. So there...that's my contribution to the broken-en-en-en record. Mark Remember putting a dime on top of the cartridge as a kid? Needle stopped skipping! LOL |
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 3, 2018 8:29:55 GMT -5
Due to some well-written thoughts on the Sonore product, I checked out their website. I was intrigued until I went to a page where they sell USB cables.
Sonore sells a 1m USB cable for.... $995.
I've lost some respect for Sonore.
|
|
|
|
Post by chicagorspec on Nov 3, 2018 9:15:16 GMT -5
Due to some well-written thoughts on the Sonore product, I checked out their website. I was intrigued until I went to a page where they sell USB cables. Sonore sells a 1m USB cable for.... $995. I've lost some respect for Sonore. Sonore doesn't make USB cables, they resell cables from Cardas, which are never cheap. I think we all know you can spend as little or as much as you want on cables; you can find USB cables for even more than this if you want to really spend your money away. I am right now using a cable I bought at Wal-Mart for $6 and enjoying my system immensely, so from that side I get your point. On the other hand, I can't figure out why so many on this forum constantly want to piss and moan so much, and spend hours and hours of time arguing about something they've never heard. Hear something for yourself if you want to form an opinion, or because that's too difficult/expensive/whatever, I get that, go listen to some music on your own system. Trying to convince the world that something you've never heard sucks sure seems a fool's errand. |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,494
|
Post by DYohn on Nov 3, 2018 9:26:02 GMT -5
On the other hand, I can't figure out why so many on this forum constantly want to piss and moan so much, and spend hours and hours of time arguing about something they've never heard. Hear something for yourself if you want to form an opinion, or because that's too difficult/expensive/whatever, I get that, go listen to some music on your own system. Trying to convince the world that something you've never heard sucks sure seems a fool's errand. RIGHT ON. |
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 3, 2018 13:44:58 GMT -5
On the other hand, I can't figure out why so many on this forum constantly want to piss and moan so much, and spend hours and hours of time arguing about something they've never heard. Hear something for yourself if you want to form an opinion, or because that's too difficult/expensive/whatever, I get that, go listen to some music on your own system. Trying to convince the world that something you've never heard sucks sure seems a fool's errand. RIGHT ON. Challenge is that we have no way to determine if there is an improvement in the sound. |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 3, 2018 13:51:33 GMT -5
Challenge is that we have no way to determine if there is an improvement in the sound. Silly statement! Just listen!  |
|
|
|
Post by chicagorspec on Nov 3, 2018 13:55:32 GMT -5
Challenge is that we have no way to determine if there is an improvement in the sound. Is this a trick? As Nick said below... In the absence of hearing a note, just bad mouth the company? |
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 3, 2018 14:20:58 GMT -5
OK - how does one listen - test?
They have only one US dealer near me - in NJ. However, I go to their website, and see no indication they sell the Sonore product line.
For me, $1K for an (ultra + power supply) is a lot of money to spend on something for which I have not personally tested. For example, when I purchased my XMC-1, I did so knowing that it could be returned if if I wasn't happy with it. Sonore offers no such offer on their website. I'm also a little concerned the contact people don't have Sonore e-mail addresses. No postal address or phone numbers were found.
------------------
PS - Tidal does not require a front-end like Roon (answering the original question posed)
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,494
|
Post by DYohn on Nov 3, 2018 14:37:04 GMT -5
Challenge is that we have no way to determine if there is an improvement in the sound. Use Your Ears. |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,494
|
Post by DYohn on Nov 3, 2018 14:39:19 GMT -5
OK - how does one listen - test? They have only one US dealer near me - in NJ. However, I go to their website, and see no indication they sell the Sonore product line. For me, $1K for an (ultra + power supply) is a lot of money to spend on something for which I have not personally tested. For example, when I purchased my XMC-1, I did so knowing that it could be returned if if I wasn't happy with it. Sonore offers no such offer on their website. I'm also a little concerned the contact people don't have Sonore e-mail addresses. No postal address or phone numbers were found. ------------------ PS - Tidal does not require a front-end like Roon (answering the original question posed) 30-day return policy no questions asked. Andrew at SGC is great to work with and will answer any emails. And Tidal DOES require a 'front end" even if it is just the Tidal player. |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 3, 2018 14:46:00 GMT -5
OK - how does one listen - test? They have only one US dealer near me - in NJ. However, I go to their website, and see no indication they sell the Sonore product line. For me, $1K for an (ultra + power supply) is a lot of money to spend on something for which I have not personally tested. For example, when I purchased my XMC-1, I did so knowing that it could be returned if if I wasn't happy with it. Sonore offers no such offer on their website. I'm also a little concerned the contact people don't have Sonore e-mail addresses. No postal address or phone numbers were found. ------------------ PS - Tidal does not require a front-end like Roon (answering the original question posed) I’ve posted on several occasions about my salesman Kamal at cruxaudio.com , he’s been great. Any questions about the sotm sms-200 basic or sms-200 Ultra or any of their other gear, he can answer, cruxaudio.com/pages/return-policy30 day return policy as stated above. Nobody said this hobby was inexpensive, it can be! Just depends on you and your wallet. Don’t want to go there? Fine, but that gives you no right to criticize anybody for their choices. Especially when you haven’t auditioned the item. Phi and similar products aren’t in the same league. Like a Tonka toy is to a John Deer tractor. So heres your safe way to try if you like, the option is yours. Like you said before, you’re happy! You could leave it at that. |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Nov 3, 2018 15:02:13 GMT -5
Challenge is that we have no way to determine if there is an improvement in the sound. Use Your Ears. Amazing. One group has heard the microRendu and UltraRendu and universally likes what it does. Another group has not heard either the microRendu or UltraRendu, does not like the concept that electrical noise reduction could improve system sound, demands measurements as proof of the virtues of the devices and refuses any possibility of hearing it for themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Nov 3, 2018 15:18:28 GMT -5
...One group has heard the microRendu and UltraRendu and universally likes what it does. Another group has not heard either...does not like the concept...and refuses any possibility of hearing it... 's got a point, there. I, for one, will eventually hear it. |
|
|
|
Post by chicagorspec on Nov 3, 2018 15:27:17 GMT -5
...One group has heard the microRendu and UltraRendu and universally likes what it does. Another group has not heard either...does not like the concept...and refuses any possibility of hearing it... 's got a point, there. I, for one, will eventually hear it. I hope the equipment and the process bring you a new level of enjoyment; they have for me. If not, no harm in trying and coming to the conclusion "It didn't work for me, in my system." Everyone's different. Good luck, and we look forward to someday soon reading your thoughts. |
|
