Physical media

[geeqner]

We still buy an occasional CD (or two or 3)

We replaced our aging CD Changer at home last year with THIS one
www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CD-C600BL-5-Disc-Changer-Black/dp/B002NKM4C2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541429798&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+cd+changer
(My wife likes to listen to Christmas music, while making her Christmas Cards, and the old Technics one "gave up the ghost" last year when she had some friends over for card-making)

I find that it has pretty decent sound quality for what I paid

But I AM in the midst of getting my CD Collection "Professionally Digitized" - So I suspect that it'll be getting less use
But I'll probably keep a CD Player around for those times where we get a new CD or two and want to play them BEFORE my lazy butt decides to ADD them to the Digital Archive...

[KeithL]

I tend to look at it differently....

I always want anything I really care about on physical media....

That way there's no possibility it will mysteriously disappear due to some odd licensing issue, or simply be "pulled' because of low demand, or anything like that.

Likewise, for music I really care about, I find the provenance of the version important (I don't care about the album liner, but I want to be able to choose which version to listen to, and streaming services usually omit to tell you).

When I want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon, I want to be able to choose the MFSL version, or the EMI 2003 version, or the SACD version - most streaming services offer one choice (unspecified).

Nov 4, 2018 13:05:42 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

I only purchase CDs if a title is unavailable via streaming so I probably average 2 discs per year.

However, the CD gets ripped and stored on my NAS so I only need it for a few minutes.

I have not owned a dedicated CD player since 2000 and I think the last time I actually listened to a CD was.... I don't even remember, maybe 5 or 6 years ago in a Blu-ray player.

[novisnick]

Nov 5, 2018 9:59:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I tend to look at it differently....

I always want anything I really care about on physical media....

That way there's no possibility it will mysteriously disappear due to some odd licensing issue, or simply be "pulled' because of low demand, or anything like that.

Likewise, for music I really care about, I find the provenance of the version important (I don't care about the album liner, but I want to be able to choose which version to listen to, and streaming services usually omit to tell you).

When I want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon, I want to be able to choose the MFSL version, or the EMI 2003 version, or the SACD version - most streaming services offer one choice (unspecified).

Nov 4, 2018 13:05:42 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

I only purchase CDs if a title is unavailable via streaming so I probably average 2 discs per year.

However, the CD gets ripped and stored on my NAS so I only need it for a few minutes.

I have not owned a dedicated CD player since 2000 and I think the last time I actually listened to a CD was.... I don't even remember, maybe 5 or 6 years ago in a Blu-ray player.

I agree completely! 👏👏👏👏👏

[geeqner]

Nov 5, 2018 9:59:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I tend to look at it differently....

...When I want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon, I want to be able to choose the MFSL version, or the EMI 2003 version, or the SACD version - most streaming services offer one choice (unspecified).

I agree - and THAT's one that I think sounds pretty "schweet" when played on Vinyl via the trusty AR / Shure....
There are times when I actually ENJOY "putzing around" with my physical media

[Casey Leedom]

I wasn’t saying that I couldn’t get CDs at Amazon, just that I see a disturbing [for me] trend towards only having MP3s available for an increasing number of the things I want ...

Casey

[KeithL]

I have to sort of agree there.

However, from what I've seen, the biggest cause of that particular situation in recent years has been iTunes.

I can think of a few recent albums that were only made available on the iTunes store... and so only in lossy AAC compressed format.

However, with the iTunes store going away next year, and streaming taking over most of the market, I'm somewhat optimistic that trend may reverse.

Once the iTunes store is gone, the balance will tip back to most of the sources of actual discs and downloads NOT being in lossy compressed formats.

As long as, hopefully, we don't start seeing actually "ownable" downloads disappear entirely.

(I personally doubt that will happen... because it is essentially impossible to physically prevent people from recording the content they stream if they make it impossible to get your own copy any other way.)

Nov 5, 2018 10:44:40 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

I wasn’t saying that I couldn’t get CDs at Amazon, just that I see a disturbing [for me] trend towards only having MP3s available for an increasing number of the things I want ...

Casey

[Casey Leedom]

Uhmmm, "iTunes Store going away" I hadn't heard that and the only web search reference I see notes that as "Fake News". Is it real?

But back to the general topic. I do prefer physical media if only for disaster recovery if things go completely Tits Up on our RIP'ed Music Volume. Of course, for purchased music that limits me to 44.1kHz/16bits. But I suppose I could start the practice of copying my downloads to CDs/DVDs. We're doing lots of off-site backups as our primary disaster recovery because re-RIP'ing all those CDs, etc. properly would be a nightmare. (We're up over 7,000 recordings now I think.)

Casey

[DYohn]

I buy a number of CDs every week. I use the physical media as the ultimate backup for my music server. And I'm currently over 10K.

[Loop 7]

Nov 5, 2018 9:59:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I tend to look at it differently....

I always want anything I really care about on physical media....

That way there's no possibility it will mysteriously disappear due to some odd licensing issue, or simply be "pulled' because of low demand, or anything like that.

Likewise, for music I really care about, I find the provenance of the version important (I don't care about the album liner, but I want to be able to choose which version to listen to, and streaming services usually omit to tell you).

When I want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon, I want to be able to choose the MFSL version, or the EMI 2003 version, or the SACD version - most streaming services offer one choice (unspecified).

I think we agree but I didn't make myself clear.

When I'm unable to find a title, or a specific release of a title, I buy the physical media. I then tag the specifics of the ripped title in Roon. Liner notes are really valuable and I like how Qobuz includes them for many releases.

Still, the mysteries of licensing are always going to suddenly make a title unavailable for streaming. Most of my friends are streaming only but I like a combination of the two.

[KeithL]

The impending close-down of the iTunes store next March or thereabouts has been reported quite widely, by lots of so-called "reputable sources", but is also being denied by Apple.

It's being reported as "information from an Apple insider".

Apparently Apple is totally denying it.

And, of course, the fact that they're denying it doesn't mean that it isn't true either

Of course, with something like that, "reality" is a relative term.

- it could be entirely fake

- or it could be entirely real, but Apple is just denying it, until they're ready to announce it

- or it could be something that they've actively discussed internally, but still isn't definite

- or, even if it's something they definitely plan to do, until it happens, they could still change their mind

Here's one vaguely reputable article on the subject:

www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/945768/Apple-iTunes-not-shutting-down-iPhone-iPad-iOS

Personally, as an audiophile, but not a big Apple fan, I've always found the whole thing rather offensive.

Apple claims to "care about music"; they actually recommend submitting music to iTunes in 24/96k digital format; yet the iTunes store started out selling only relatively low quality lossy content - AAC 128k.

Then, when complaints about poor quality and DRM began to pile up, they offered an "upgrade" to 256k AAC, minus the DRM, but still don't offer even CD quality lossless music.

I find it hypocritical that, at the same time as claiming to be champions of high quality music, they were selling what was essentially "the lowest quality music their customers would accept".

Likewise, I was especially disappointed the first time an album I actually wanted was ONLY available from the iTunes store, in lossy format.

(As it turned out, the band did eventually sell it on an actual CD from their own website, so all ended well.)

Incidentally, IF YOU'RE THINKING OF BUYING MOVIES FROM ITUNES YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THIS (I consider Forbes to be a reputable source):

www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/09/17/apple-responds-to-disappearing-itunes-movie-purchases-issue/#19486b1d72b6

Incidentally, if you want to do backups of digital audio content in file form, you should realize that a 4 tB USB hard drive is currently selling for less than $150.

(And, for absolute reliability, make TWO backup copies.)

Nov 5, 2018 11:54:01 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

Uhmmm, "iTunes Store going away" I hadn't heard that and the only web search reference I see notes that as "Fake News". Is it real?

But back to the general topic. I do prefer physical media if only for disaster recovery if things go completely Tits Up on our RIP'ed Music Volume. Of course, for purchased music that limits me to 44.1kHz/16bits. But I suppose I could start the practice of copying my downloads to CDs/DVDs. We're doing lots of off-site backups as our primary disaster recovery because re-RIP'ing all those CDs, etc. properly would be a nightmare. (We're up over 7,000 recordings now I think.)

Casey

[KeithL]

Obviously we each have different priorities.

I personally almost never read the liner notes... and none of the cool extras you get with Roon actually interest me.

(I simply have no interest in "deep content"... If I want to know something, which doesn't happen all that often, I just Google it.)

However, I worry a lot about those odd licensing issues.

One thing that especially makes me wonder about the future is the current revenue problems being faced by all of the large streaming providers.

Spotify and Tidal are currently both losing a lot of money... and simply signing up more subscribers at the same rate will not fix it... so something has got to change... soon.

As I see it, the only possibilities are for them to raise the overall price for their service, or to offer more narrow content categories.

For example, they could raise the price of their full subscription, but start offering low cost subscriptions to individual genres.

To me, this suggests an "end game business model" quite similar to what we now have on cable TV.

The problem, as I see it, is that we may someday see a situation where Spotify has a whole group of "exclusive content", while Tidal has their own exclusive content, and Apple has theirs.

If this happens, then, just as I'm forced to subscribe to HBO and Showtime and Cinemax to see all the latest movies, I may someday be unable to listen to "every album every made" without subscribing to multiple streaming services.

And, at that point, it's not simply a matter of "if my streaming provider goes out of business I can get all my music back by simply subscribing to a different one"....

Instead, just as with cable, if that happens I may end up looking for another service that carries my favorite artist or genre package, then trying to figure out which package to buy that includes it.

I simply find it much easier to sleep nights KNOWING that I have actual physical copies of all my favorite albums, stored on disc, where they can't possibly vanish on some dark and stormy night...

Nov 5, 2018 14:27:29 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

Nov 5, 2018 9:59:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I tend to look at it differently....

I always want anything I really care about on physical media....

That way there's no possibility it will mysteriously disappear due to some odd licensing issue, or simply be "pulled' because of low demand, or anything like that.

Likewise, for music I really care about, I find the provenance of the version important (I don't care about the album liner, but I want to be able to choose which version to listen to, and streaming services usually omit to tell you).

When I want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon, I want to be able to choose the MFSL version, or the EMI 2003 version, or the SACD version - most streaming services offer one choice (unspecified).

I think we agree but I didn't make myself clear.

When I'm unable to find a title, or a specific release of a title, I buy the physical media. I then tag the specifics of the ripped title in Roon. Liner notes are really valuable and I like how Qobuz includes them for many releases.

Still, the mysteries of licensing are always going to suddenly make a title unavailable for streaming. Most of my friends are streaming only but I like a combination of the two.

[Gary Cook]

Nov 5, 2018 15:08:28 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I simply find it much easier to sleep nights KNOWING that I have actual physical copies of all my favorite albums, stored on disc, where they can't possibly vanish on some dark and stormy night...

So true

I also find it annoying to have to search for the "best" version, or at the very least "my favourite" version. Whereas with a CD/SACD I have "my favourite" version accessible without any effort, right there ripped or on the disc.

With discs I find that I almost always listen to the complete album. The journey is greater than the sum of the individual parts. Often a better experience, rather than just picking out the "hit" track/s, which is what happens most often when streaming.


Cheers
Gary

[Loop 7]

Nov 5, 2018 15:08:28 GMT -5 KeithL said:

One thing that especially makes me wonder about the future is the current revenue problems being faced by all of the large streaming providers.

Spotify and Tidal are currently both losing a lot of money... and simply signing up more subscribers at the same rate will not fix it... so something has got to change... soon.

Agree. 

Spotify and TIDAL, as far as I know, have never had a profit generating quarter and I don't see how that would change; TIDAL has such a tiny marketshare so I almost write them off long term.

Amazon, Apple and Google streaming are bulletproof because their streaming services are just loss leaders. 

[klinemj]

Nov 5, 2018 17:24:50 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Nov 5, 2018 15:08:28 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I simply find it much easier to sleep nights KNOWING that I have actual physical copies of all my favorite albums, stored on disc, where they can't possibly vanish on some dark and stormy night...

So true

I also find it annoying to have to search for the "best" version, or at the very least "my favourite" version. Whereas with a CD/SACD I have "my favourite" version accessible without any effort, right there ripped or on the disc.

With discs I find that I almost always listen to the complete album. The journey is greater than the sum of the individual parts. Often a better experience, rather than just picking out the "hit" track/s, which is what happens most often when streaming.


Cheers
Gary

I found it annoying that new versions of music I owned kept coming out that were better than what I owned...so I have several copies of the same music in different versions. With Tidal, I can tag the latest one I like best, and that comes up as my primary choice each time. If I later decide a different one is better, I can tag that instead.

Really handy!

Mark

[klinemj]

I have purchased exactly 2 CD's in...well, as long as I can recall. And I only bought those because I wanted physical copies of those 2 for sentimental reasons.

Mark

[Gary Cook]

Nov 5, 2018 19:16:37 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Nov 5, 2018 17:24:50 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

So true

I also find it annoying to have to search for the "best" version, or at the very least "my favourite" version. Whereas with a CD/SACD I have "my favourite" version accessible without any effort, right there ripped or on the disc.

With discs I find that I almost always listen to the complete album. The journey is greater than the sum of the individual parts. Often a better experience, rather than just picking out the "hit" track/s, which is what happens most often when streaming.

I found it annoying that new versions of music I owned kept coming out that were better than what I owned...so I have several copies of the same music in different versions. With Tidal, I can tag the latest one I like best, and that comes up as my primary choice each time. If I later decide a different one is better, I can tag that instead.
Really handy!
Mark

Undoubtedly for the second (or more) play, but the first play takes me a long time to find the one that I want/like. Plus I have the same problem as with discs, there always seems to be a better version around that I haven't heard or tagged yet.

On Tidal, it's one of those companies that charges more for their Australian customers than it does the US or UK customers. I can get Tidal, Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music for $US9.99 (via VPN). Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music are all $A11.99 in Australia, which corresponds to the exchange rate and GST. But Tidal is $A14.99, so they charge $A3.00 a month more here for no reason. That's Tidal basic, Tidal HiFI is $A23.99. Personally I don't support companies that have discriminatory pricing depending on where one lives, so no Tidal in my place.


Cheers
Gary

[novisnick]

Nov 5, 2018 20:41:29 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Nov 5, 2018 19:16:37 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I found it annoying that new versions of music I owned kept coming out that were better than what I owned...so I have several copies of the same music in different versions. With Tidal, I can tag the latest one I like best, and that comes up as my primary choice each time. If I later decide a different one is better, I can tag that instead.
Really handy!
Mark

Undoubtedly for the second (or more) play, but the first play takes me a long time to find the one that I want/like. Plus I have the same problem as with discs, there always seems to be a better version around that I haven't heard or tagged yet.

On Tidal, it's one of those companies that charges more for their Australian customers than it does the US or UK customers. I can get Tidal, Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music for $US9.99 (via VPN). Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music are all $A11.99 in Australia, which corresponds to the exchange rate and GST. But Tidal is $A14.99, so they charge $A3.00 a month more here for no reason. That's Tidal basic, Tidal HiFI is $A23.99. Personally I don't support companies that have discriminatory pricing depending on where one lives, so no Tidal in my place.


Cheers
Gary

Are you sure there’s no other reason for the price difference? As in government taxex or regulation? Trade issues etc? Just want to lay blame whereit belongs and make sure we know all the facts. 

I haven’t a clue but its a question worth asking IMHO.
Thanks Gary

[Gary Cook]

Nov 5, 2018 20:46:40 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Nov 5, 2018 20:41:29 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Undoubtedly for the second (or more) play, but the first play takes me a long time to find the one that I want/like. Plus I have the same problem as with discs, there always seems to be a better version around that I haven't heard or tagged yet.

On Tidal, it's one of those companies that charges more for their Australian customers than it does the US or UK customers. I can get Tidal, Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music for $US9.99 (via VPN). Spotify, Google Play and Apple Music are all $A11.99 in Australia, which corresponds to the exchange rate and GST. But Tidal is $A14.99, so they charge $A3.00 a month more here for no reason. That's Tidal basic, Tidal HiFI is $A23.99. Personally I don't support companies that have discriminatory pricing depending on where one lives, so no Tidal in my place.

Are you sure there’s no other reason for the price difference? As in government taxex or regulation? Trade issues etc? Just want to lay blame whereit belongs and make sure we know all the facts. 
I haven’t a clue but its a question worth asking IMHO.
Thanks Gary

Hi Nick, the other 3 are $US9.99 and $A11.99 whilst Tidal is $US9.99 and $A14.99. Why would Tidal have any more costs than the other 3? There is only the exchange rate and GST @ 10%, no duty, import taxes etc as we have a Free Trade Agreement between the 2 countries.

This is not at all unusual, there are plenty of other examples of companies who charge more here for no real reason. Sony TV's for example are more expensive here than the maths show that they should be, whereas Apple don't charge any extra for supplying their Australian customers. It's not unique to electronics, Mercedes charge more for their cars and parts in Australia but Jaguar don't. Even Amazon is not immune, I can often buy stuff cheaper (including freight and GST) from amazon.com than I can from amazon.com.au . Let's not get into Emotiva's Australian pricing, it's ridiculous.

We call it the "Australia Tax", because that's all it is, extra dumped on us because of where we live. It used to be far worse 10 or 15 years ago, but the internet is gradually killing it off. Everyone can easily look up what the rest of world is paying for the same stuff, so there's constant pressure to price match internationally.


Cheers
Gary

[novisnick]

Nov 5, 2018 21:56:11 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Nov 5, 2018 20:46:40 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Are you sure there’s no other reason for the price difference? As in government taxex or regulation? Trade issues etc? Just want to lay blame whereit belongs and make sure we know all the facts. 
I haven’t a clue but its a question worth asking IMHO.
Thanks Gary

Hi Nick, the other 3 are $US9.99 and $A11.99 whilst Tidal is $US9.99 and $A14.99. Why would Tidal have any more costs than the other 3? There is only the exchange rate and GST @ 10%, no duty, import taxes etc as we have a Free Trade Agreement between the 2 countries.

This is not at all unusual, there are plenty of other examples of companies who charge more here for no real reason. Sony TV's for example are more expensive here than the maths show that they should be, whereas Apple don't charge any extra for supplying their Australian customers. It's not unique to electronics, Mercedes charge more for their cars and parts in Australia but Jaguar don't. Even Amazon is not immune, I can often buy stuff cheaper (including freight and GST) from amazon.com than I can from amazon.com.au . Let's not get into Emotiva's Australian pricing, it's ridiculous.

We call it the "Australia Tax", because that's all it is, extra dumped on us because of where we live. It used to be far worse 10 or 15 years ago, but the internet is gradually killing it off. Everyone can easily look up what the rest of world is paying for the same stuff, so there's constant pressure to price match internationally.


Cheers
Gary

Damn! That just sucks!
I guess the only retaliation to get them to stop raping you guys is to NOT BUY THEIR STUFF! Good luck organizing that! 
I just wanted to be clear and understand. 
Thanks for sharing your world!

[Gary Cook]

Nov 5, 2018 22:36:33 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Nov 5, 2018 21:56:11 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Hi Nick, the other 3 are $US9.99 and $A11.99 whilst Tidal is $US9.99 and $A14.99. Why would Tidal have any more costs than the other 3? There is only the exchange rate and GST @ 10%, no duty, import taxes etc as we have a Free Trade Agreement between the 2 countries.

This is not at all unusual, there are plenty of other examples of companies who charge more here for no real reason. Sony TV's for example are more expensive here than the maths show that they should be, whereas Apple don't charge any extra for supplying their Australian customers. It's not unique to electronics, Mercedes charge more for their cars and parts in Australia but Jaguar don't. Even Amazon is not immune, I can often buy stuff cheaper (including freight and GST) from amazon.com than I can from amazon.com.au . Let's not get into Emotiva's Australian pricing, it's ridiculous.

We call it the "Australia Tax", because that's all it is, extra dumped on us because of where we live. It used to be far worse 10 or 15 years ago, but the internet is gradually killing it off. Everyone can easily look up what the rest of world is paying for the same stuff, so there's constant pressure to price match internationally.

Damn! That just sucks!
I guess the only retaliation to get them to stop raping you guys is to NOT BUY THEIR STUFF! Good luck organizing that! 
I just wanted to be clear and understand. 
Thanks for sharing your world!

My pleasure Nick, the world is big place and it's good to learn about the differences.

FWIW the tactic of "NOT BUY THEIR STUFF" works pretty well. Whenever I can I tell people why I'm not buying from them. I can't say that I have personally changed anything, but change is happening so maybe there's enough of us complaining. It's a good fight, so I'll keep at it.

So Tidal, if you are reading this maybe that's why your not doing so well in Australia, we don't like paying more than the rest of the world.

Cheers
Gary