klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 23, 2019 19:30:08 GMT -5
This camp:
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Post by Bonzo on May 23, 2019 19:45:16 GMT -5
There is even a poll thread and what might surprise you is last time I saw it, was like 50/50. Although people here are not normal. So Bonzo, which camp are you in? "Normal" or "Not Normal/Abnormal"?  Well I always knew they broke the mold after I was born, and boy I knew it a LONG time ago. Then a few years ago I was REALLY bored and took one of those tests. Come to find out, I'm INTJ personality, one of the rarest of them all. Add too that, my heritage is German, I'm an only child, grew up in Michigan (where people tend to always point out the best of the best which can translate as arrogance even when its not), my Dad was as anal retentive as they come, and I share my Mom's ability to be better than average at many things. In a nut shell, I'm not only abbey normal, I'm completely F * * K E D! 😁 |
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Post by Bonzo on May 23, 2019 19:45:49 GMT -5
Yep, that's it. Saw that coming! 😆 |
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Post by Bonzo on May 23, 2019 19:47:46 GMT -5
There is even a poll thread and what might surprise you is last time I saw it, was like 50/50. Although people here are not normal. So Bonzo, which camp are you in? "Normal" or "Not Normal/Abnormal"? By the way, you just HAD to go there didn't you? 🤣 |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on May 23, 2019 19:57:17 GMT -5
So Bonzo, which camp are you in? "Normal" or "Not Normal/Abnormal"? By the way, you just HAD to go there didn't you? 🤣 I saw the opportunity and couldn’t resist.  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 23, 2019 22:27:21 GMT -5
So Bonzo, which camp are you in? "Normal" or "Not Normal/Abnormal"? By the way, you just HAD to go there didn't you? 🤣 You gave us a slow pitch. LOL! Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 23, 2019 22:29:23 GMT -5
So Bonzo, which camp are you in? "Normal" or "Not Normal/Abnormal"? Well I always knew they broke the mold after I was born, and boy I knew it a LONG time ago. Then a few years ago I was REALLY bored and took one of those tests. Come to find out, I'm INTJ personality, one of the rarest of them all. Add too that, my heritage is German, I'm an only child, grew up in Michigan (where people tend to always point out the best of the best which can translate as arrogance even when its not), my Dad was as anal retentive as they come, and I share my Mom's ability to be better than average at many things. In a nut shell, I'm not only abbey normal, I'm completely F * * K E D! 😁 Off the scale INTP here. But, my wife has softened the "T" into more of a "F". Darn feelings... Mark |
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Post by routlaw on May 24, 2019 10:09:04 GMT -5
Dare I bring this thread back to its origins but I have a few questions regarding the new ERC-4 which hopefully Keith or others at Emotiva can answer. The new design looks nice and as other have stated the center drawer is more appealing than the off center drawer of the previous ERC-3 design.
1. Why the opamp at the I/V stage as opposed to discreet circuits? Does this constitute a compromise. There are many who would believe it does.
2. Why not include a USB input in conjunction with the optical and coax inputs?
3. One of the purported drawbacks to the ERC-3 was the implementation of only one AD 1995 chip, but the specs for the ERC-4 state "chips". Can we now assume there is one DAC chip per channel as implemented in the DC-1?
4. Specs state balanced outputs, but is this component a true differentially balanced design?
5. And finally, how does this unit perform and sound compared to the previous ERC-3, especially with SMPS vs the linear power supply of the previous model.
Thanks
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2019 11:30:07 GMT -5
Dare I bring this thread back to its origins but I have a few questions regarding the new ERC-4 which hopefully Keith or others at Emotiva can answer. The new design looks nice and as other have stated the center drawer is more appealing than the off center drawer of the previous ERC-3 design. 1. Why the opamp at the I/V stage as opposed to discreet circuits? Does this constitute a compromise. There are many who would believe it does. 2. Why not include a USB input in conjunction with the optical and coax inputs? 3. One of the purported drawbacks to the ERC-3 was the implementation of only one AD 1995 chip, but the specs for the ERC-4 state "chips". Can we now assume there is one DAC chip per channel as implemented in the DC-1? 4. Specs state balanced outputs, but is this component a true differentially balanced design? 5. And finally, how does this unit perform and sound compared to the previous ERC-3, especially with SMPS vs the linear power supply of the previous model. Thanks Numbers 3 & 4 are of definite interest to me. |
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Post by DavidR on May 24, 2019 11:35:24 GMT -5
I'm disappointed in the digital inputs. Nothing there to hook up a computer to. Now I wait for the release of the DC-2.
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Post by Bonzo on May 24, 2019 12:00:11 GMT -5
I'm disappointed in the digital inputs. Nothing there to hook up a computer to. Now I wait for the release of the DC-2. Now you know how I feel with their processors and lack of analog outputs and small number of inputs. Same thing from the opposite perspective. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 24, 2019 12:55:43 GMT -5
Nope (correct).... no source auto-detect. Okay cool, love direct command buttons. Next question. Is it only manual input switching, or is there a menu setting for manual or auto sensing? Either way is fine with me just asking to know. , since you are here answering questions. What about this one. Like I said I'm just asking. The fact that you guys put a hard button on the outside is fantastic. Makes me assume there isn't an auto detect but just asking to confirm. Thanks. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 24, 2019 12:56:42 GMT -5
Yup.... that little arrow/box thingy means "Input Select". Next question. Is it only manual input switching, or is there a menu setting for manual or auto sensing? Either way is fine with me just asking to know. I don't know one way or the other, but I doubt it's auto sensing. I'm not sure but is the key on the remote between the "Repeat" & "Display" for switching between CD playback & digital inputs?  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 24, 2019 14:06:01 GMT -5
1)
An I/V conversion stage is one of the textbook examples of what op-amps are exceptionally GOOD at. Op-amps are often easier to design with than transistors, and not all op-amps perform well, which has led to there being a lot of poor quality designs that use op-amps.
(In the early days of solid state there were specifically many op-amps that had good basic specifications but sounded bad for more complex reasons.)
However, in many applications, op-amps perform better than discrete transistors, and this is one of them. And the LM4562 is a really high-quality op-amp.
2) I would have preferred to also have a USB input... but it just didn't fit in with the rest of the design. The Coax and Optical inputs will work with a variety of digital audio sources... and can be used with an external USB-to-S/PDIF converter if you really need a USB input.
3) The DAC and analog portions of the ERC-4 are fully balanced and fully differential (in terms of audio that statement is meaningless for the purely digital circuitry).
The ERC-4 uses one AD1955 DAC chip per unit like the ERC-3. (I wouldn't exactly call it a drawback. Using separate chips, in differential mono mode, as we did with the DC-1, does yield a slight improvement in S/N and THD, but it really is very slight.) The AD1955 itself is a fully differential stereo DAC chip (it has four outputs; left+, left-, right+, and right-).
4) Yes, the ERC-4 is a true fully balanced fully differential design. (That means that everything, from the DAC to the output stage, has separate Left+, Left-, Right+, and Right- signal paths.)
5) In audio terms the ERC-4 sounds very much the same as the ERC-3. Mechanically it seems to be a bit quieter.
(in principle, the SMPS would suggest less hum, but I don't honestly ever recall hearing hum with the ERC-3 anyway.)
Dare I bring this thread back to its origins but I have a few questions regarding the new ERC-4 which hopefully Keith or others at Emotiva can answer. The new design looks nice and as other have stated the center drawer is more appealing than the off center drawer of the previous ERC-3 design. 1. Why the opamp at the I/V stage as opposed to discreet circuits? Does this constitute a compromise. There are many who would believe it does. 2. Why not include a USB input in conjunction with the optical and coax inputs? 3. One of the purported drawbacks to the ERC-3 was the implementation of only one AD 1995 chip, but the specs for the ERC-4 state "chips". Can we now assume there is one DAC chip per channel as implemented in the DC-1? 4. Specs state balanced outputs, but is this component a true differentially balanced design? 5. And finally, how does this unit perform and sound compared to the previous ERC-3, especially with SMPS vs the linear power supply of the previous model. Thanks |
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Post by routlaw on May 24, 2019 16:45:53 GMT -5
Thanks Keith for taking the time to answer those questions. Interesting regarding the AD 1955 being a fully differential DAC chip itself.
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Post by Bonzo on May 24, 2019 19:07:17 GMT -5
1)
An I/V conversion stage is one of the textbook examples of what op-amps are exceptionally GOOD at. Op-amps are often easier to design with than transistors, and not all op-amps perform well, which has led to there being a lot of poor quality designs that use op-amps.
(In the early days of solid state there were specifically many op-amps that had good basic specifications but sounded bad for more complex reasons.)
However, in many applications, op-amps perform better than discrete transistors, and this is one of them. And the LM4562 is a really high-quality op-amp.
2) I would have preferred to also have a USB input... but it just didn't fit in with the rest of the design. The Coax and Optical inputs will work with a variety of digital audio sources... and can be used with an external USB-to-S/PDIF converter if you really need a USB input. 3) The DAC and analog portions of the ERC-4 are fully balanced and fully differential (in terms of audio that statement is meaningless for the purely digital circuitry).
The ERC-4 uses one AD1955 DAC chip per unit like the ERC-3. (I wouldn't exactly call it a drawback. Using separate chips, in differential mono mode, as we did with the DC-1, does yield a slight improvement in S/N and THD, but it really is very slight.) The AD1955 itself is a fully differential stereo DAC chip (it has four outputs; left+, left-, right+, and right-).
4) Yes, the ERC-4 is a true fully balanced fully differential design. (That means that everything, from the DAC to the output stage, has separate Left+, Left-, Right+, and Right- signal paths.) 5) In audio terms the ERC-4 sounds very much the same as the ERC-3. Mechanically it seems to be a bit quieter.
(in principle, the SMPS would suggest less hum, but I don't honestly ever recall hearing hum with the ERC-3 anyway.)
Dare I bring this thread back to its origins but I have a few questions regarding the new ERC-4 which hopefully Keith or others at Emotiva can answer. The new design looks nice and as other have stated the center drawer is more appealing than the off center drawer of the previous ERC-3 design. 1. Why the opamp at the I/V stage as opposed to discreet circuits? Does this constitute a compromise. There are many who would believe it does. 2. Why not include a USB input in conjunction with the optical and coax inputs? 3. One of the purported drawbacks to the ERC-3 was the implementation of only one AD 1995 chip, but the specs for the ERC-4 state "chips". Can we now assume there is one DAC chip per channel as implemented in the DC-1? 4. Specs state balanced outputs, but is this component a true differentially balanced design? 5. And finally, how does this unit perform and sound compared to the previous ERC-3, especially with SMPS vs the linear power supply of the previous model. Thanks On the topic of mechanical noise, the ERC-3 has received plenty of criticism for a noisy DVD drive. Maybe not the drive itself, but because it spun so fast. I believe it was a Toshiba drive. Since much of the reason for the ERC-4 is because the old drive was discontinued, can you comment on the new drive, what brand it is, and if its a fast spinner too? If so, was any extra sound deadening material added to help quite the whirl noise? This disc spinner is in my wheelhouse, so I'd like to know every detail. Thanks. |
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Post by seraphic on May 25, 2019 9:34:02 GMT -5
3) The DAC and analog portions of the ERC-4 are fully balanced and fully differential (in terms of audio that statement is meaningless for the purely digital circuitry).
The ERC-4 uses one AD1955 DAC chip per unit like the ERC-3. (I wouldn't exactly call it a drawback. Using separate chips, in differential mono mode, as we did with the DC-1, does yield a slight improvement in S/N and THD, but it really is very slight.) The AD1955 itself is a fully differential stereo DAC chip (it has four outputs; left+, left-, right+, and right-).
4) Yes, the ERC-4 is a true fully balanced fully differential design. (That means that everything, from the DAC to the output stage, has separate Left+, Left-, Right+, and Right- signal paths.) Are the L/R Balanced XLR inputs on the RMC 1/L also a fully differential design? (meaning you could use the XLR outputs on the ERC-4 into the RMC-1/L XLR inputs and maintain a fully differential path)
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Post by donh50 on May 25, 2019 9:44:25 GMT -5
Op-amps get a bum rap in the audio community as if discrete is somehow better. In fact, and especially for differential designs, it is virtually impossible to get a discrete implementation to match and track over PVT (process, voltage, temperature) variations as well as the lowly opamp. It is also hard to achieve as good of power-supply and common-mode noise rejection, again due to the device matching and layout features easy to implement in an IC and hard to do in a discrete design. A good discrete design may offer greater headroom, lower noise, and lower distortion in some cases, but those tend to be few and very expensive. And those are still unlikely to have as good PSRR and CMRR (power supply rejection ratio, common-mode rejection ratio) as a good op-amp. As KeithL said, you do have to choose the right op-amp for the job, and that is where a lot of implementations fall down. There are a myriad of outstanding audio op-amps these days, but I have seen video op-amps used that just are not appropriate (wide bandwidth also means greater noise), bipolar-input op-amps used in phono circuits (wrong choice, the input current will raise the noise compared to a JFET), etc.
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Post by creimes on May 25, 2019 13:29:37 GMT -5
3) The DAC and analog portions of the ERC-4 are fully balanced and fully differential (in terms of audio that statement is meaningless for the purely digital circuitry).
The ERC-4 uses one AD1955 DAC chip per unit like the ERC-3. (I wouldn't exactly call it a drawback. Using separate chips, in differential mono mode, as we did with the DC-1, does yield a slight improvement in S/N and THD, but it really is very slight.) The AD1955 itself is a fully differential stereo DAC chip (it has four outputs; left+, left-, right+, and right-).
4) Yes, the ERC-4 is a true fully balanced fully differential design. (That means that everything, from the DAC to the output stage, has separate Left+, Left-, Right+, and Right- signal paths.) Are the L/R Balanced XLR inputs on the RMC 1/L also a fully differential design? (meaning you could use the XLR outputs on the ERC-4 into the RMC-1/L XLR inputs and maintain a fully differential path)
Yes |
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Post by Loop 7 on May 25, 2019 19:56:59 GMT -5
The more I read, the more I am starting to believe that USB and toslink have a lot of disadvantages compared to coax.
I know my next streamer will not be a computer but an Allo Raspberry Pi box with a coax and BNC only output hat.
Like others, I'm not longer convinced computers are the best way to go.
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