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Post by whovous on Dec 11, 2018 9:22:17 GMT -5
My system includes a UMC-200, an XPA-5, a Comcast X1 cable box, an Amazon Fire stick, an LG Blu-Ray, an old 1080i Panasonic plasma, and a Logitech Harmony remote.
The remote has programmed power on sequences for cable, the Fire stick, and the Blu Ray.
A pattern has appeared in recent weeks (months?). If I power on, all devices light up, but I get no picture or sound. It happens the same way with all three devices. If I then power off, wait a few seconds and power the same device on again, everything works fine. One exception is that if I power on to one device (cable, Fire or LG), power off and then power on to a different device, then I continue to get the blank screen. It seems that I must power on the same device twice before I get a handshake.
Now, if this remains the full extent of my problem, I can live with it. It will take me about 60 seconds to watch TV instead of 20 or so seconds.
My question: Is this sequence a likely sign of further failure to come, or is this just a quirk that will remain like this until some other unrelated item fails?
I think I am out of warranty, so I am likely to replace rather than repair if this item is on its last legs.
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 11, 2018 12:11:53 GMT -5
Well it's certainly possible you have a device that is failing. But, it might also be the HDMI hand-shake not correctly going from source to TV. It's possible some firmware updates to your components have caused the always complicated HDMI handshake to start being more problematic.
I have a similar situation with a Direct-TV cable box, Emo MC-700, and Sony 900F series TV when the cable box's last remembered channel is the 4K channel, and I'm starting it all up fresh. Sometimes I get nothing, more often I get a picture with a Direct-TV error message that says my equipment doesn't support 4K (ha!) and the picture is being sent in 720p or 1080i instead. Sometimes the Direct-TV menu system will allow me to change the resolution to 4K, but if not, if I turn off the direct-TV box and then back on again it usually fixes the problem. My guess is this is a HDMI handshake issue. The remote for the Direct-TV box also turns on the TV at the same time and I think this is the problem. I'm going to have to try turning one component on at a time, TV first, then MC-700 then Direct-TV, allowing each to stabilize first.
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Post by whovous on Dec 11, 2018 12:17:13 GMT -5
It does seem to be a handshake issue, but it seems odd that I have the same issue with all three input components. A firmware update on one would not affect them all, would it?
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 11, 2018 12:27:24 GMT -5
It would depend on which component the firmware update occurred. The common signal path for all is through the UMC-200 and the TV, so any changes to these could cause your issue, no matter which input is being selected. On the other hand, not being an HDMI guru, I don't know if your situation could be caused by any of the inputs. You say you are turning ALL inputs on at the same time, so theoretically they are all having an HDMI conversation with the UMC-200 etc., so if there is a problem with any of those handshakes I suppose it could cause the downstream problem. Perhaps try only turning on one input device in your sequence, such as the Comcast box, then Emo and TV (or the reverse, not sure which is best), instead of all components at the same time.
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Post by whovous on Dec 11, 2018 12:32:23 GMT -5
I should have been more clear. The remote turns devices on in sequence, not all at once. Also, FWIW, I am pretty sure the cable box is always on. Otherwise, it can take many minutes to reboot.
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 11, 2018 12:44:09 GMT -5
Ok, well my non-guru understanding is that every HDMI device that is connected has to do a complete handshake with everything in its signal path, so even turning all those on one at a time that could be a "choke" issue. I still think it would be worth trying a minimal turn-on sequence, letting each component come up fully, and only use one active input. |
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Post by whovous on Dec 11, 2018 17:29:52 GMT -5
Would such a handshake include devices that are turned off? If no, then I should be able to rule out the Blu-Ray. In that case, if I pull the HDMI cable for either Comcast or the Fire stick and the other one works, then I've probably found my problem.
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 11, 2018 21:40:46 GMT -5
I decided I better try my own solution too  Sure enough, although it was only one try, I booted up the gear one at a time, with the Direct-TV still remembering the last channel as the 4K one, and no complaints, it came right up. I'll keep trying it this way and see if it stays consistent or if I was just lucky this one time. BTW, the sequence I used was, TV first, then processor (MC700), then source (Direct-TV). No other devices were turned on (probably like yours, they are on "standby" not completely turned off). I didn't pull any HDMI cables. |
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 13, 2018 20:30:40 GMT -5
Well, that's 3 for 3, 3 days in a row. I've turned each component on one at a time making sure they were up before turning on the next item. TV, then MC700, then Direct TV, and each time it came up on the 4K channel with no errors or problems. Gotta love that HDMI handshake ;-)
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Post by whovous on Dec 15, 2018 11:30:46 GMT -5
I will have to try this when I get home. It seems to defeat the purpose of a universal remote, but I've grown less than enamored of the Logitech Harmony over the years anyway.
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 15, 2018 13:16:39 GMT -5
I will have to try this when I get home. It seems to defeat the purpose of a universal remote, but I've grown less than enamored of the Logitech Harmony over the years anyway. The staggered turn-ons are fine when all we had to worry about was turn-on thump, but in the era of HDMI it's a whole new ballgame. The Logitech will still work if you can place enough time between each component turning on, but you still have to hold it pointed at the gear all that time. If you really want to turn all your sources on, plus the processor and TV, that could be a while! I was using a cheapo learning Sony universal remote before to handle up to 8 units, but no pretty pictures, and no turn-on sequencing, you just switch to each component and deal with it. For the moment, all separates. |
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Post by whovous on Dec 17, 2018 15:18:20 GMT -5
I am getting periodic USB error messages. It has been so long since I flashed the firmware that I've forgotten how to do so. Time to relearn it, I guess. This could be the source of my problem.
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Post by Loop 7 on Dec 17, 2018 15:36:01 GMT -5
My UMC-200 started failing so I sent it in for the well-known power supply replacement which resolved all issues.
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Post by vibroverbus on Dec 18, 2018 8:46:34 GMT -5
My UMC-200 started failing so I sent it in for the well-known power supply replacement which resolved all issues. I'd place large sums of money on it being this. We own both a UMC-200 - which has been flawless for many many years - and, a "Fusion 8100" which we handmedown-inherited. It's pretty well known that the Fusion 8100 is nearly identical internally to the UMC-200 with the exception of the addition of the on-board power amps. The Fusion 8100 has had to go back twice for the "power supply fix" under warranty, and symptoms are virtually exactly as described. At least in my two-time experience of this failure mode, the unit will appear to start up and be running, but it won't pass sound or video. In early stages this will manifest as signals dropping out during use, at first only the sound dropping out, and at that point, sometimes a hard reboot (the switch on the back, not just standby) or a full flash reset (ugggh setup again) might bring it back, but even if it does, your days are numbered as it will get more and more frequent until it won't recover at all. With our Fusion this was warranty serviced in late 2016, then again in late 2017. I'm praying that the last fix lasts more than a year this time, but fingers crossed its been working immaculately ever since. Oddly our UMC-200, which is older than the Fusion by quite a few years, has never had one minute of downtime or symptoms. Perhaps there were QC problems late in the UMC-200/8100 lifecycle that affected later units more than early. While I'm at it, the Fusion (which of course has been back to the Emotiva mothership twice in last couple years) is at V1.52.02.54 while the UMC-200 is at V1.52.02.52. I occaisionally wonder if there's a ".54" update for the UMC-200 but am in kinda a aintbrokedontfix mindset about it at the moment... |
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Post by whovous on Dec 19, 2018 7:06:12 GMT -5
The latest UMC-200 update is .52. It took me a lot of trouble to get it installed yesterday. All device handshakes now seem to work on the first try now. There may be new problems, but I really need to run setup and EMO-Q again before I can be sure. Unfortunately, the setup microphone is at our other house and it's gonna be awhile.
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Post by ssalb on Jan 13, 2019 13:18:51 GMT -5
The latest UMC-200 update is .52. It took me a lot of trouble to get it installed yesterday. All device handshakes now seem to work on the first try now. There may be new problems, but I really need to run setup and EMO-Q again before I can be sure. Unfortunately, the setup microphone is at our other house and it's gonna be awhile. What eventually worked to get your UMC-200 firmware updated. I recently replaced a couple of the capacitors on my UMC-200s power supply to get it working again. Since it was out of the rack, decided to update the firmware. Running v39 which is what it came with. Using Win10. Followed the instructions and alternate instructions none of which worked. Tried two different usb cables. The best result I got was the firmware getting 12% done then it failed. Worked on it for a many hours and finally gave up concerned I would brick it. Thanks |
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Post by whovous on Jan 26, 2019 11:26:55 GMT -5
The latest UMC-200 update is .52. It took me a lot of trouble to get it installed yesterday. All device handshakes now seem to work on the first try now. There may be new problems, but I really need to run setup and EMO-Q again before I can be sure. Unfortunately, the setup microphone is at our other house and it's gonna be awhile. What eventually worked to get your UMC-200 firmware updated. I recently replaced a couple of the capacitors on my UMC-200s power supply to get it working again. Since it was out of the rack, decided to update the firmware. Running v39 which is what it came with. Using Win10. Followed the instructions and alternate instructions none of which worked. Tried two different usb cables. The best result I got was the firmware getting 12% done then it failed. Worked on it for a many hours and finally gave up concerned I would brick it. Thanks Sorry, I don't remember very well. The order of install was very important, as was paying close attention to the software. I recall screwing up both before the install took. However, it turns out it did not matter. My handshake problem is now worse, not better. It can take up to ten minutes to watch TV sometimes. |
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Post by vibroverbus on Feb 15, 2019 11:15:45 GMT -5
whovous: this has been mentioned repeatedly but you don't seem to comment... Has this unit had the notorious power supply service done? On our 8100 (roughly same guts as UMC-200, as I said already) that symptom of not passing video was exactly what it did and indeed it just slowly got worse and worse and worse... Once or twice it seemed like firmware re-flash helped but in the end the only thing that fixed it was Emotiva servicing it. As a long time automotive and electronic repair-er, whenever you have something that worked as-is for years, you want to be very careful of going down rat-holes of erroneous diagnosis with things that have worked perfectly fine for long periods. If your system was perfectly fine before, and you haven't introduced a massive change to any other components, its highly unlikely to be HDMI cables or firmware etc. Especially when there's a notorious failure-mode (the PS issue) that 100% fits the symptoms. Bottom line, I think the firmware flash thing is a red herring and focusing on it and turn-on order and all the other stuff is probably a waste of time and unless you say it was just done, the PS needs looking at. Now that I've done the PS on my UMC-200 (I bet ssalb will agree), its a ridiculously easy job. And even if you're not a solder jockey, you should be able to provide any electronics guy with the information and it should take less than 1/2 hr from start to "all screwed back together and ready to go". Cost of parts is a few bux, max.
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Post by whovous on Feb 15, 2019 20:13:54 GMT -5
A week or so ago the unit pretty much died. It made a loud popping sound and the onscreen image flickered and froze. After I powered it down, it did nothing but deliver error messages. I confirmed with Emotiva that it was out of warranty. I've been thinking of getting a 4K screen for a while now, and this was the incentive I needed. An MC-700 arrived a few days ago.
Does this sound like a PS problem? I will probably simply sell the unit on Craiglist. What price should I seek?
I appreciate all of the replies. Is anyone here interested in buying this one?
PS. My other UMC-200, the one that is working just great, is still in warranty!
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Feb 15, 2019 23:31:44 GMT -5
Here's the story with the UMC-200... and what can go wrong with one... As with any complex product, there are a lot of reasons why a UMC-200 could eventually fail. I'm just going to talk about the most likely few of them... One of the most common reasons why a UMC-200 would fail would be a failure of the power supply. A power supply failure is usually relatively easy to fix. There are no replacement power supplies available; therefore, when they fail, they must be repaired at the component level. However, when a UMC-200 power supply fails, the most common cause is the failure of one or more of three specific capacitors. Replace those three caps and there is a very good chance that the power supply will work again. (Note that the power supply in the UMC-200 produces several voltages and is complicated enough that you can't just replace the whole thing for a few $$$.) Another relatively common reason for a UMC-200 to fail is a failure of the HDMI switching board. Unfortunately, the HDMI switching components used in the UMC-200 are no longer manufactured. This means that, if your UMC-200 has a bad HDMI board, it really can't be fixed. (The cost to design a replacement board using current parts would be more than the UMC-200 is worth.) So........ - If the problem is just a bad power supply, then it can be fixed (probably for about $20 in parts; and $100 worth of labor at a repair shop). - If the problem is a bad HDMI board, then it probably can't be fixed; period. - There's no way to be sure which it is, or if the problem is another less common one, without opeing up the unit and performing some diagnostic tests. This is the reason why we no longer offer out-of-warranty service on the UMC-200. As an out-of-warranty service we would have to charge for the labor involved to disgnose the problem. And, to be quite blunt, we didn't like the idea of charging people to diagnose their unit, when there is a good chance we might end up being unable to repair it. Here's the best guidance I can offer on "informal diagnosis"..... - if your UMC-200 tends to drop back into Standby after you turn it on - then it probably has a bad power supply - if the audio works perfectly on your UMC-200, but the video doesn't work - then it probably has a bad HDMI board - if it's just plain acting oddly then the problem could be a bad power supply or it could be something else (for example, a bad HDMI board could cause the power supply to malfunction, or you could have another problem entirely) - if your UMC-200 is just plain acting oddly, then it COULD be a firmware problem, and re-flashing the firtmware might fix it - re-loading the firmware is a pain in the butt... but it doesn't cost anything... and you can get what you need to try here: ( emotivalounge.proboards.com/board/204/umc-200-firmware-legacy-product ) We believe that, compared to paying us, or a local repair shop, $100 or so to attempt to repair a broken UMC-200, you're better off trading it in on a nice new MC-700... I should note that our trade-in policy only applies to original owners (so you cannot trade in a unit you bought used). Therefore, since a non-working UMC-200 may well turn out to be irreparable, I would NOT advise someone to purchase a non-working one used. To answer the original question directly.... The symptoms you describe could be due to a power supply problem... but they don't specifically suggest that to be the cause. (So, in this case, it really is a gamble.... and I would advise anyone buying or selling to treat it accordingly.) A week or so ago the unit pretty much died. It made a loud popping sound and the onscreen image flickered and froze. After I powered it down, it did nothing but deliver error messages. I confirmed with Emotiva that it was out of warranty. I've been thinking of getting a 4K screen for a while now, and this was the incentive I needed. An MC-700 arrived a few days ago. Does this sound like a PS problem? I will probably simply sell the unit on Craiglist. What price should I seek? I appreciate all of the replies. Is anyone here interested in buying this one? PS. My other UMC-200, the one that is working just great, is still in warranty! |
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Sure enough, although it was only one try, I booted up the gear one at a time, with the Direct-TV still remembering the last channel as the 4K one, and no complaints, it came right up. I'll keep trying it this way and see if it stays consistent or if I was just lucky this one time. BTW, the sequence I used was, TV first, then processor (MC700), then source (Direct-TV). No other devices were turned on (probably like yours, they are on "standby" not completely turned off). I didn't pull any HDMI cables.
