cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 2, 2020 10:52:27 GMT -5
There is no way it takes 20 seconds to change inputs. Maybe 7 to 10 at the most. Website maintenance has improved over the years, but certainly lags behind real time. I think the "future proof" XMC-1 was a dream that unfortunately hit reality for the company. It was upgradeable to a certain extent, but has hit a wall. My current concern now is audio issues that need resolution on the XMC-2 as well as the release of Dirac. 7-10 seconds should still be considered unacceptable considering it takes my Anthem about 3. What’s to say the future-proof, upgradeable, expandable new series of processors won’t hit the same reality wall in 3 years? If the XMC1 truly did hit a wall of reality, it might say something about the company if they didn’t learn anything from that and continue to sell a new line of processors based on the same promise. What it says is up to you to decide. Agree that it's still on the long side, but I believe this has been answered by someone else here stating that it concerns DSD and that a future firmware update is in the works so that the user can choose to continue with the current "check" process, or to speed things up by saying "don't check". We shall see. In the meantime, it really does not bother me. I've decided that whether the XMC-2 is upgradeable in reality or not, to stay with the product because it sounds great, is well built, well priced with my XMC-1 trade-in. I would have held on to my XMC-1 with V3 board as it provided me all that I really needed, but the trade-in was too good of a deal.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 2, 2020 11:18:20 GMT -5
7-10 seconds should still be considered unacceptable considering it takes my Anthem about 3. Anyone who has been around for Emotiva's previous processors knows that they always start out with slow switching times and get better as the firmware updates come out. We also know that the XMC-1 had faster switching times and that the XMC-2/RMC-1/1L use the same board. Look for switching times to be XMC-1 speed soon. What’s to say the future-proof, upgradeable, expandable new series of processors won’t hit the same reality wall in 3 years? If the XMC1 truly did hit a wall of reality, it might say something about the company if they didn’t learn anything from that and continue to sell a new line of processors based on the same promise. What it says is up to you to decide. The reality of the XMC-1 is that it was always a 7.1 processor, and people wanted more channels than it was ever going to be able to handle. Just like the current processors (except the RMC-1 with its expansion bays) will never handle more than 16 channels. Other than physical limitations, any box should be able to handle any upgrade.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 11:22:25 GMT -5
There is no way it takes 20 seconds to change inputs. Maybe 7 to 10 at the most. Website maintenance has improved over the years, but certainly lags behind real time. I think the "future proof" XMC-1 was a dream that unfortunately hit reality for the company. It was upgradeable to a certain extent, but has hit a wall. My current concern now is audio issues that need resolution on the XMC-2 as well as the release of Dirac. 7-10 seconds should still be considered unacceptable considering it takes my Anthem about 3. What’s to say the future-proof, upgradeable, expandable new series of processors won’t hit the same reality wall in 3 years? If the XMC1 truly did hit a wall of reality, it might say something about the company if they didn’t learn anything from that and continue to sell a new line of processors based on the same promise. What it says is up to you to decide. Emotiva has really back off the "future proof" sales pitch on the new lines of pre/pros. Dan has talked about HDMI upgrades (which should be do able on the modular HDMI board), but they really have never promised anything about supporting future audio standards. Where with the XMC-1 they went out of their way to promise it would support things well into the future (a huge mistake). I look at upgrading a pre/pro much the same as a PC. Sure you can add things to a PC and upgrade it some, but at some point the mother board is just dated and it makes more sense to buy a new unit instead of upgrading. It's really the same thing with these processors since they are basically Linux boxes. You can upgrade some things, but once you get to a point where the main boards wont support what ever features come out in the future. Emotiva never should have promised the amount of upgrade ability they offered on the XMC-1, its not economically viable to offer that. I think they did a solid to their customer base by offering the XMC-2 upgrade. The new processors still have their issues for sure, the biggest being no Dirac. The HDMI switch is painfully slow and I've timed it a few times it comes in around 15 seconds or so. For the most part that's not a huge deal to me because I don't switch inputs a ton, but I can see it being a big deal if someone is bouncing back and forth on inputs.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 2, 2020 11:25:24 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something here: the HTP-1 is the same price as the RMC-1L? And, dollar to dollar the only thing it has (currently) over the RMC-1L is that it has working DIRAC room correction? Otherwise it looks cheaper, has cheaper connectors, and less inputs... for the same money.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 11:26:34 GMT -5
What’s to say the future-proof, upgradeable, expandable new series of processors won’t hit the same reality wall in 3 years? If the XMC1 truly did hit a wall of reality, it might say something about the company if they didn’t learn anything from that and continue to sell a new line of processors based on the same promise. What it says is up to you to decide. The reality of the XMC-1 is that it was always a 7.1 processor, and people wanted more channels than it was ever going to be able to handle. Just like the current processors (except the RMC-1 with its expansion bays) will never handle more than 16 channels. Other than physical limitations, any box should be able to handle any upgrade. The XMC-1 really never was designed to handle more than the 7 channels. I think the flaw in Emotiva's sales pitch was promising to stay current with audio codecs and not really thinking about what that could look like in the future. I'm guessing maybe they could have had the XMC-1 support Atmos in a 5.1.2 setup and that would have stayed true to the original sales pitch to some extent. But the biggest mistake was placing the XMC-1 as a unit that you would buy once and keep in your shelf for 10 years+ and it still be a modern unit. That's just too much to promise.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 2, 2020 11:28:43 GMT -5
The reality of the XMC-1 is that it was always a 7.1 processor, and people wanted more channels than it was ever going to be able to handle. Just like the current processors (except the RMC-1 with its expansion bays) will never handle more than 16 channels. Other than physical limitations, any box should be able to handle any upgrade. The XMC-1 really never was designed to handle more than the 7 channels. I think the flaw in Emotiva's sales pitch was promising to stay current with audio codecs and not really thinking about what that could look like in the future. I'm guessing maybe they could have had the XMC-1 support Atmos in a 5.1.2 setup and that would have stayed true to the original sales pitch to some extent. But the biggest mistake was placing the XMC-1 as a unit that you would buy once and keep in your shelf for 10 years+ and it still be a modern unit. That's just too much to promise. Agreed!
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 11:29:13 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something here: the HTP-1 is the same price as the RMC-1L? And, dollar to dollar the only thing it has (currently) over the RMC-1L is that it has working DIRAC room correction? Otherwise it looks cheaper, has cheaper connectors, and less inputs... for the same money. From what I've read on AVS the HTP-1 seems to be a more stable Dirac enabled version of the RMC-1L. Sound wise the RMC-1L should have a slight benefit due to the fully balanced nature of the unit. IMO if the RMC-1L was as stable as I've read the HTP-1 is and if it had Dirac the RMC-1L would be a hands down better unit.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 11:37:07 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something here: the HTP-1 is the same price as the RMC-1L? And, dollar to dollar the only thing it has (currently) over the RMC-1L is that it has working DIRAC room correction? Otherwise it looks cheaper, has cheaper connectors, and less inputs... for the same money. From what I've read on AVS the HTP-1 seems to be a more stable Dirac enabled version of the RMC-1L. Sound wise the RMC-1L should have a slight benefit due to the fully balanced nature of the unit. IMO if the RMC-1L was as stable as I've read the HTP-1 is and if it had Dirac the RMC-1L would be a hands down better unit. Here is a quick review. Looks like the guy who bought it returned the RMC-1 for it. I say this as a fan of my RMC-1, but I am jealous of this review. My friend received his earlier today (or last year at this point). It seems to be serial number 1, which cracked us up a bit. We had a few hours to do the physical setup, configuration, and get a little listening and watching in, so this isn't a detailed assessment and I'll probably forget a bunch of stuff I said to myself that I would post. The HTP-1 replaced his RMC-1 which was recently returned due to...umm...displeasure. His old XMC-1 was standing in until the Monolith arrived. Anyway, I'll skip to the point: The HTP-1 just works. You hook it up, turn in on, go through the very logical HTTP-based GUI (we skipped Dirac for today, just quickly setting distance as well as levels with an SPL meter), and start playing. There are bound to be bugs, but right now you can use and enjoy it in the way that most people expect to be able to use a piece of AV hardware. It is not fiddly. The three main sources in the system are an Oppo 203, Intel NUC (video & music source), and LG C8 apps like Netflix. HDMI switching was just like Marc said, roughly 3 seconds. CEC/ARC appear to work just as they should. The front display and the GUI definitely mirror one another and show what's going on nicely. I'm not sure if an ATMOS or TrueHD source is just supposed to say "Dolby Digital" or not, which it did, but maybe reflecting the actual codec is an update for later. IMHO, in this JTR-based system the unit just flat out sounds great for movies. In our unscientific testing with the UHD versions of Blade Runner 2049 and Alita: Battle Angel it seemed to be at the very least the equal of the RMC-1. Detail, dynamics, and sub-bass extension, as well as articulation, were excellent and, to our ears, sounded even better than the RMC-1. It will be interesting to hear other opinions on this. We didn't do much of any critical music listening yet. We checked out a handful of tracks via Foobar2000 in WASAPI event mode ranging from 320 MP3 to 24/96 FLAC files and they sounded quite good, but it was too casual to give any comparative opinion vs the Emotiva units. Basically we talked too much. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in with a brief something to let people know that they are arriving and the dern thing really does work, just like Marc has said. I'm super impressed and can't wait to spend more time working with it, especially with Dirac 2.0.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 12:05:19 GMT -5
Mostly valid points. But Emo is still pushing upgradeability on the new line, however. They are still making the mistake of promising things they have no idea what they will even be. They haven’t even delivered on the initial promise, they haven’t updated firmware since when(?) and that was a disaster, and they’re still talking about walking into the sunset hand in hand with their customers on this new magical software platform that’s built entirely in house (by a company who has admitted they’re NOT a software development company), and everyone is happy and content and everything Danny Boy touches turns to gold. They have made these mistakes all throughout the development and now the beta program of the new line of processors. I’m absolutely not endorsing Monoprice either. I’ll never buy anything from them again. I’ll always be fair. Emo looks better than the Monoprice, it’s likely a more sturdy, solid build, and I love their efforts to bring mfg back to the US. But they’re in over their heads, they refuse to admit it, they continue to point fingers, and they still walk around like everything is fine. I worked for Apple for awhile, and the motto was “Surprise and Delight”. Quite different than Emo’s “Overpromise and Underdeliver”. I do not see them pushing the upgrade aspect on the new line, but most of your other points I agree with. They went 100% in house with the RMC-1/L/XMC-2 and functionally it is light years behind Marantz (which is understandable), but sounds like the HTP-1 on day one is more stable/featured than the RMC-1 platform after being out for a year+. I do think saying that the 1.7 FW is a disaster is a little strong, as my unit is fairly stable (has issues, but still very usable). But I have no issues with the Monoprice equipment and I very much wanted to buy the 15" Monolith subs, but they were too tall for my space. And the pre/pro is just a re-badged ATI unit mostly so there is no huge issue there. The one issue I have is how Emotiva seems to blame the HDMI issues on the other components. I get that there may be some truth to that, but frankly most other processors do not have near the amount of HDMI issues that Emotiva has. I'm not sure what they do differently, but whatever they are doing just works.
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 2, 2020 12:06:37 GMT -5
Looks like the guy who bought it returned the RMC-1 for it. I say this as a fan of my RMC-1, but I am jealous of this review. Not to worry. I would expect it to be very difficult to determine whether the RMC or HTP would be better for movies. However, I would expect in 2 channel listening the RMC to be better - maybe not by a lot, but I would think it would be noticeable. Like their amps, Lonnie is *very* good at preamps/DACs. Serial #1 is kind of cool. Similar to some of the cool low serial numbers people got with their XPA-1L's.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 2, 2020 12:10:20 GMT -5
Looks like the guy who bought it returned the RMC-1 for it. I say this as a fan of my RMC-1, but I am jealous of this review. Not to worry. I would expect it to be very difficult to determine whether the RMC or HTP would be better for movies. However, I would expect in 2 channel listening the RMC to be better - maybe not by a lot, but I would think it would be noticeable. Like their amps, Lonnie is *very* good at preamps/DACs. Serial #1 is kind of cool. Similar to some of the cool low serial numbers people got with their XPA-1L's. Yeah, I think at the end of the day the RMC is the better pre/pro from an overall SQ standpoint (looking at both 2 channel and HT applications) IMO. I guess the Dirac thing is starting to bug me just a tad. I get that Emotiva was thrown a curve ball, but it is disappointing to see a competitor unit basically roll off the shelf at day 1 and seem to work pretty well. And my RMC-1 does sound awesome paired with my DR-2 amp in reference stereo. That SQ would make it super hard to think about returning the RMC-1.
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richb
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Post by richb on Jan 2, 2020 12:14:14 GMT -5
Mostly valid points. But Emo is still pushing upgradeability on the new line, however. They are still making the mistake of promising things they have no idea what they will even be. They haven’t even delivered on the initial promise, they haven’t updated firmware since when(?) and that was a disaster, and they’re still talking about walking into the sunset hand in hand with their customers on this new magical software platform that’s built entirely in house (by a company who has admitted they’re NOT a software development company), and everyone is happy and content and everything Danny Boy touches turns to gold. They have made these mistakes all throughout the development and now the beta program of the new line of processors. I’m absolutely not endorsing Monoprice either. I’ll never buy anything from them again. I’ll always be fair. Emo looks better than the Monoprice, it’s likely a more sturdy, solid build, and I love their efforts to bring mfg back to the US. But they’re in over their heads, they refuse to admit it, they continue to point fingers, and they still walk around like everything is fine. I worked for Apple for awhile, and the motto was “Surprise and Delight”. Quite different than Emo’s “Overpromise and Underdeliver”. I do not see them pushing the upgrade aspect on the new line, but most of your other points I agree with. They went 100% in house with the RMC-1/L/XMC-2 and functionally it is light years behind Marantz (which is understandable), but sounds like the HTP-1 on day one is more stable/featured than the RMC-1 platform after being out for a year+. I do think saying that the 1.7 FW is a disaster is a little strong, as my unit is fairly stable (has issues, but still very usable). But I have no issues with the Monoprice equipment and I very much wanted to buy the 15" Monolith subs, but they were too tall for my space. And the pre/pro is just a re-badged ATI unit mostly so there is no huge issue there. The one issue I have is how Emotiva seems to blame the HDMI issues on the other components. I get that there may be some truth to that, but frankly most other processors do not have near the amount of HDMI issues that Emotiva has. I'm not sure what they do differently, but whatever they are doing just works. The RMC-1 switches inputs on my LG C9 in about 3 seconds. HDMI has driven small manufactures out of the market and Emotiva has a point but that is what they signed up for. I expect improvements in the future. IMO, it would be best to continue to remove issues and solidify the product before Dirac integration which I believe is the current direction. The HTP-1 and other MDS platform processors have a leg up sharing a common DSP architecture and, possibly simplied HDMI architecture. Emotiva processors span many price points and they have a lot invested in it. I expect them to get the remaining issues ironed out and deliver Dirac. Then, the game will be a foot. - Rich
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richb
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Post by richb on Jan 2, 2020 12:23:13 GMT -5
I do not see them pushing the upgrade aspect on the new line, but most of your other points I agree with. They went 100% in house with the RMC-1/L/XMC-2 and functionally it is light years behind Marantz (which is understandable), but sounds like the HTP-1 on day one is more stable/featured than the RMC-1 platform after being out for a year+. I do think saying that the 1.7 FW is a disaster is a little strong, as my unit is fairly stable (has issues, but still very usable). But I have no issues with the Monoprice equipment and I very much wanted to buy the 15" Monolith subs, but they were too tall for my space. And the pre/pro is just a re-badged ATI unit mostly so there is no huge issue there. The one issue I have is how Emotiva seems to blame the HDMI issues on the other components. I get that there may be some truth to that, but frankly most other processors do not have near the amount of HDMI issues that Emotiva has. I'm not sure what they do differently, but whatever they are doing just works. They do have this on all the new processor pages. The Path To The Future Home theater technology has made rapid strides since we first introduced our XMC-1, and continues to advance at a rapid pace. Because of this, we designed the RMC-1 with three hardware accessory bays for future expansion. We plan to make a variety of expansion options and modules available (we’ll release more details about those later). The main circuitry in the RMC-1 is also fully modular, and so can be upgraded to keep up with the latest and greatest options as they become available.I expect the software lags the hardware for expansion, so more should be coming. The hardware is always based on available components so as time passes, parts become an issue. Expansion is great, but I'd rather see a hardware spin every few years. EBAY is also an upgrade path - Rich
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 2, 2020 12:27:46 GMT -5
My XMC-2 has been stable.
I have a couple of issues. As I've already stated, 1.7 caused me to lose "Video on Standby" functionality. No idea why. Had to go back to 1.5 to have that capability.
Other than the slow switching speed which I have become used to, the biggest issue is missing Dirac.
As to future upgradeability, it would be nice to pop in a board to have HDMI 2.1, but other than that, I'm not counting on anything regardless of promise.
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 2, 2020 13:36:58 GMT -5
I guess the Dirac thing is starting to bug me just a tad. I get that Emotiva was thrown a curve ball, My guess is they have the majority of their software resources feverishly working on the Dirac port Keith mentioned that they were forced to undertake, which is causing the slowness in them deploying new firmware updates.
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 2, 2020 13:43:23 GMT -5
As to future upgradeability, it would be nice to pop in a board to have HDMI 2.1, but other than that, I'm not counting on anything regardless of promise. I would think Emotiva has earned a lot of goodwill from us for both their upgrade board in the XMC-1, and especially for their trade-in program on the XMC-2. Even if the RMC/XMC-2 end up not being upgradable, it's fair to believe somehow Dan would supply a solution that most would be happy with. I assume the HTP-1 won't be upgradable, nor would they supply a trade-in option.
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Post by brazensol on Jan 2, 2020 14:22:01 GMT -5
The design of that thing looks like it might appeal to Tesla Cybertruck buyers. Yes the Emotiva's do look better. Appears the Monoprice's actually work.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 2, 2020 14:26:00 GMT -5
The design of that thing looks like it might appeal to Tesla Cybertruck buyers. Yes the Emotiva's do look better. Appears the Monoprice's actually work. Maybe, maybe not.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 2, 2020 14:50:38 GMT -5
What’s to say the future-proof, upgradeable, expandable new series of processors won’t hit the same reality wall in 3 years? If the XMC1 truly did hit a wall of reality, it might say something about the company if they didn’t learn anything from that and continue to sell a new line of processors based on the same promise. What it says is up to you to decide. I wouldn't say the XMC-1 hit some imaginary wall of technology. From my point of view, the reality is that when they first designed what the XMC-1 became, they fully expected to build the RMC-1 off the same chip technology platform using the same external partners they had used with the XMC-1. At some point, they decided to build the RMC-1 off a different chip technology platform...and that drove them to different external partners. Upgrading the XMC-1 from the old platform to the new would require a lot more change than they previously foresaw. Or, they could have upgraded the XMC-1 within the older platform but that would have required them to be working with 2 different external partners...which doesn't make business sense. So, from my point of view - it made more sense to start from a clean slate. I think that's a very good call, and I'm very appreciative of the generous trade-in offer. I'm very likely to use that offer (fairly soon). Will the RMC-1/1L and XMC-2 reach a point they can't or should not be upgraded? They likely will. But, until something like what I describe above happens, I expect they will be around for a while (longer than typical products from the big makers). I fully expect that the HDMI board will be the first hardware to change, other than whatever happens with expansion modules. Mark
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 2, 2020 17:19:41 GMT -5
There is no way it takes 20 seconds to change inputs. Maybe 7 to 10 at the most. Website maintenance has improved over the years, but certainly lags behind real time. I think the "future proof" XMC-1 was a dream that unfortunately hit reality for the company. It was upgradeable to a certain extent, but has hit a wall. My current concern now is audio issues that need resolution on the XMC-2 as well as the release of Dirac. I just timed it - going from DirecTV SDR to Oppo UDP-203. 15 seconds and the normal double visual flash of the new source as it seems to be trying to lock.
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