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Post by rbk123 on Jan 26, 2020 10:58:29 GMT -5
I think the point is it sounded pretty different than when he heard Atmos tracks on the XMC. Getting hung up on semantics is silly.
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Post by cwt on Jan 26, 2020 13:26:03 GMT -5
The objects in dolby atmos are scalable to as few as 2 chs ; hence you find it in smartphones ; it just gives the mixer more placement opportunity as the channel count goes up . It depends on how good the mixer is as to whether he uses static objects or the size of objects or the steering www.dolby.com/in/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.htmlWhat I found fascinating about the HTP1 [ as did Roger Dressler I noticed ] was that the HTP1 didn't seem to have any test tones built in ; never seen this before and it looks like REW and downloaded files are the workaround ; fun
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 26, 2020 13:39:53 GMT -5
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all..
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 26, 2020 17:56:28 GMT -5
With overhead speakers, Atmos will render objects to the bed channels as well as the overheads. I see no reason it wouldn't still render objects to any and all available speakers, even if overhead speakers do not exist. I don't know, just speculating. In general I just thought with any DolbyAtmos/DTS:X capable processor/receiver that if immersive channels weren’t selected and the speaker setup was 2.0/5.1/7.1 that the track would be the appropriate bed track, ie: DolbyTrueHD or DTS-HD MA 2.0/5.1/7.1. Now I’m curious to know if this is otherwise, or if the immersive metadata info in the bitstream gets diverted to the remaining 2/5/7 bed channels.?
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 26, 2020 18:26:26 GMT -5
The objects in dolby atmos are scalable to as few as 2 chs ; hence you find it in smartphones ; it just gives the mixer more placement opportunity as the channel count goes up . It depends on how good the mixer is as to whether he uses static objects or the size of objects or the steering www.dolby.com/in/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.htmlWhat I found fascinating about the HTP1 [ as did Roger Dressler I noticed ] was that the HTP1 didn't seem to have any test tones built in ; never seen this before and it looks like REW and downloaded files are the workaround ; fun True about the lack of test tones. However, Dirac 2 does a better job than Dirac 1, and once I understood the paradigm shift, I accepted it. Dirac 2 measures distance and sets the speaker trims. Unlike Dirac 1, there's no need to run a calibration, load a filter, and pull out the Radio Shack meter to set the trims. The actual trims determined are viewable and can be adjusted in the browser interface. As much as I wanted to tweak them "just to be sure", listening to a few movies convinced me that it sounds really nice as-is. I do need to redo Dirac 2 from start-to-end - only because I understand more about how it works. But it does take longer - Dirac 2 listens to 17 different mic locations. I also need to learn more about house curve tweaking.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 26, 2020 18:28:38 GMT -5
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all.. hsamwel - That doesn't appear to be the case (I thought it'd work that way too, but it doesn't). When I'm playing an Atmos movie, I see "Atmos" on the source input indicator.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 26, 2020 18:56:54 GMT -5
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all.. hsamwel - That doesn't appear to be the case (I thought it'd work that way too, but it doesn't). When I'm playing an Atmos movie, I see "Atmos" on the source input indicator. I THINK that the Atmos meta data is there so since the system knows there are no top speakers it tries to place those sounds to the normal 7 channel speakers in a way to create a faux ceiling speaker approach.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 26, 2020 20:28:23 GMT -5
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all.. hsamwel - That doesn't appear to be the case (I thought it'd work that way too, but it doesn't). When I'm playing an Atmos movie, I see "Atmos" on the source input indicator. My buddy when he got his anthem AVM60, said the same thing before he installed the ceiling speakers. I’m very happy with what you ended up with. You were very patient.
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Post by cwt on Jan 26, 2020 22:28:30 GMT -5
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all.. hsamwel - That doesn't appear to be the case (I thought it'd work that way too, but it doesn't). When I'm playing an Atmos movie, I see "Atmos" on the source input indicator. Watch this video ; it was enough to convince me www.dolby.com/in/en/brands/dolby-atmos.htmlTaken literally ; that's obviously talking about objects ; if you take out the bed channels ; those objects aren't subsequently rendering in a xyz 3d space anymore.Heres how av forums described it with a 5.1 soundtrack
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nephi
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Post by nephi on Jan 26, 2020 23:55:32 GMT -5
Which processor, the Emotiva or the Monoprice, uses better parts? I know the Monoprice has a slightly newer DAC but what about all the other components? Is there reason to believe one would sound better than the other, especially on stereo music? I believe the Emotiva will run Dirac at 96 vs 48 so that's a point in the Emotiva's favor.
I'm just wondering overall if one or the other uses superior parts.
Thanks!
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Post by tabbycph on Jan 27, 2020 3:17:01 GMT -5
They specs says,
RMC-1 "AKM4490 Verita DAC operating in fully balanced Mono" and the
HTP-1 "1 AK4493 for every 2 channels".
So at least there, the RMC wins !
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Post by cwt on Jan 27, 2020 5:54:33 GMT -5
Which processor, the Emotiva or the Monoprice, uses better parts? I know the Monoprice has a slightly newer DAC but what about all the other components? Is there reason to believe one would sound better than the other, especially on stereo music? I believe the Emotiva will run Dirac at 96 vs 48 so that's a point in the Emotiva's favor. I'm just wondering overall if one or the other uses superior parts. Hopefully Emo will facilitate the sort of info it released for the XMC1, heres a good synopsis of what we know from Richb forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/monolith-by-monoprice-htp-1-16-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-home-theater-processor-w-dirac-alexa-compatibility.113559/post-1359523With a stereo analogue 2ch input the RMC1 has 2 things going for it ; a clean passthrough without the ad/da conversions of the HTP1[which has easier less isolated presumably routing with everything in lpcm after the decoders or converted by the adc;s] and being dual differential after the dacs = not cheap ;common mode noise reduction . The RMC1 also has analogue ladder volume controls[Cirrus CS3318] which are very nice and anti jitter dsp between the decoders and dsp processors . The volume control specs of the htp1 are in the avs thread somewhere so in lieu of anything there it would be nice if some testing were done for a reference ; by Amir over at ASR ; which would be fascinating edit bigguyca has examined the innards of the HTP1 ; nice design if you don't have a bias towards toroidal psu's Rather enjoyed the 8805 comments www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3112176-official-monoprice-monolith-htp-1-owners-thread-37.html#post59157618
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 27, 2020 11:03:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry.... but, to me, Dolby Labs tends to drift a bit too far into the philosophical side of things... and a bit to far away from the legitimate practical benefits....
First off, from a purely "local - here and now" point of view, 51. channels is 5.1 channels.
And, within those 5.1 channels, there is nothing that Dolby Atmos can do that "ordinary non-object-oriented sound" cannot do. Once you render a Dolby Atmos sound-track to 5.1 channels it is just 5.1 channel sound... and the fact that it originated as object oriented sound makes no difference.
So, if you have a 5.1 channel system, the real benefits of "Atmos technology" occur along the way.
For starters, because the content itself is object oriented, it can be rendered differently for 5.1 channels and other channel layouts. So, if you have more speakers, or ceiling speakers, that Atmos mix can be rendered optimally for them. And, if you only have 5.1 channels, it can be rendered optimally for them, rather than simply mixed down from content intended for more channels.
It's the difference between a flat photograph and a 3D model...
A given flat photograph can only be intended to be viewed optimally from one angle... But, with a single true 3d model, you can render a variety of different flat photographs, each optimized to be viewed from a specific angle.
The other benefit to Atmos technology is one that is not visible to end users at all... Atmos mastering and editing applications allow you to visualize and manipulate Atmos content as objects. So, for example, when placing an object "to the left, behind, and above you", they can actually visualize it as an object sitting in 3-space... This is much easier and more intuitive than attempting to position an object by moving left/right, front/back, and up/down panning sliders.
As a result, for people authoring Atmos content, producing a good quality result can be achieved more easily and more quickly. And, when you provide an artist with better tools, or tools that are easier to use, they have more time to focus on the art.
hsamwel - That doesn't appear to be the case (I thought it'd work that way too, but it doesn't). When I'm playing an Atmos movie, I see "Atmos" on the source input indicator. Watch this video ; it was enough to convince me www.dolby.com/in/en/brands/dolby-atmos.htmlTaken literally ; that's obviously talking about objects ; if you take out the bed channels ; those objects aren't subsequently rendering in a xyz 3d space anymore.Heres how av forums described it with a 5.1 soundtrack
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 27, 2020 11:35:28 GMT -5
Yes... and no... you are conflating "the system" with "the output" and "how it all comes about". The short answer is that, while the end result is exactly that, how you get there is, at least in principle, slightly different.
In the general philosophy of the Dolby Atmos system there are two types of audio constructs and two types of speakers.
You have bed channels - which are audio channels that are always played by certain speakers or sets of speakers. These are channels like "front left", "front right", and "center", and are assigned to speakers which occupy those locations.
(In a theater, multiple speakers may be assigned to each bed channel; in the home version it is always one speaker per bed channel.)
And you have audio objects - which are individual tracks or objects which each have a location and a size. Audio objects may be assigned to different speakers or groups of speakers by the renderer - depending on what speakers you have.
(In a theater, bed speakers and object speakers are different things, although some speakers may belong to both groups, and multiple object speakers may belong to a single bed group.)
In a home system with 7.1 channels there is a total overlap between the bed and object speakers. (You have 7.1 bed channels and 7.1 object speakers and they are the same eight speakers.)
And, from a philosophical perspective, if you're playing an Atmos track on a 7.1 channel system, it will still be decoded by the Atmos renderer... But the result will be exactly the same as if it were played in TrueHD on a 7.1 channel TrueHD system. (But it is perfectly reasonable for it to be displayed as Atmos content... because that's what it is.)
At the practical level of how channels are encoded and decoded it becomes even more confusing. In an Atmos content stream, there is actually a "core", which is in TrueHD, and the Atmos metadata which modifies it to add the Atmos functionality to it. So, from a practical perspective, when you play an Atmos track on a 7.1 channel system, the system does in fact "just play the TrueHD track and ignore the Atmos metadata". However, from a philosophical perspective, the Atmos decoder is still deciding to do so... and "rendering those objects to the proper speakers".
(If this makes your head spin then simply don't sweat it... since there's not much you can do about it anyway.)
Shouldn’t Atmos playback as normal Dolby TrueHD unless you got any wides, height or top speakers? If a user has 7.1 setup he shouldn’t see atmos at all..
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Post by cwt on Jan 27, 2020 12:52:25 GMT -5
In a home system with 7.1 channels there is a total overlap between the bed and object speakers.(You have 7.1 bed channels and 7.1 object speakers and they are the same eight speakers.) And, from a philosophical perspective, if you're playing an Atmos track on a 7.1 channel system, it will still be decoded by the Atmos renderer... As you say Keith ; the 7.1 bed channels are also 7.1 object speakers [ to which the atmos decoder renders to them] ; would it be true to say that those objects being rendered to the 7 channels can be shrunk/expanded repositioned ;to quote dolby "exist as an independent audio object, free of channel restrictions." Understand that isn't in the xyz axis but objects may still be placed in differing places on the xy axis as opposed to fixed channels with dolby truehd ? Not as effective as using ceiling speakers as well [the art in the workflow as you put it ] btw dismayed to see we seem to be going backwards with dolby ; comments about pinned 7.1.2 soundtracks turning up at avs ; 7.1.4 was bad enough to enable an easy workflow for conjoined streaming services
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Post by bolle on Jan 27, 2020 17:38:32 GMT -5
]So, from a practical perspective, when you play an Atmos track on a 7.1 channel system, the system does in fact "just play the TrueHD track and ignore the Atmos metadata". [/div] However, from a philosophical perspective, the Atmos decoder is still deciding to do so... and "rendering those objects to the proper speakers".
[/quote] Wouldn´t this mean that you need an Atmos decoder to play back the True HD core of an Atmos track? I do have an XMC-1, which obviously doesn´t have an Atmos decoder, but perfectly fine plays back the True HD core of Atmos tracks. I guess I just understand something wrong but at the moment I understand your explanation as such that this normally shouldn´t work.
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 2, 2020 5:36:16 GMT -5
As I understand it if you have a 7.1 non atmos system the atmos track is only reqognised as Dolby TrueHD through its core. Any atmos meta data is discarded. You simply get normal 7.1 channels. If I understood Keith correctly.. While having a 7.1 system with an atmos decoder you still get atmos meta data used but instead ”mixed” into the bed channels. This last part was new to me. I always thought it worked the same, as if you didn’t have atmos at all, if the wide, top or height speakers were missing. Does this mean older non atmos systems are missing some sound effects from atmos tracks?! Or does the atmos meta data only ”change” how some effects sound and where they originate when having a atmos decoder? I actually don’t see how the atmos decoder could ”change” sound.. Only add to the core sound. But I probably don’t understand how this works..
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Post by wilburthegoose on Feb 2, 2020 9:33:55 GMT -5
As far as I can tell by listening, the correct answer is what Keith said: "While having a 7.1 system with an atmos decoder you still get atmos meta data used but instead ”mixed” into the bed channels"
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Post by tagmanz on Feb 2, 2020 21:31:55 GMT -5
As I understand it if you have a 7.1 non atmos system the atmos track is only reqognised as Dolby TrueHD through its core. Any atmos meta data is discarded. You simply get normal 7.1 channels. If I understood Keith correctly.. While having a 7.1 system with an atmos decoder you still get atmos meta data used but instead ”mixed” into the bed channels. From what I understand your first statement is entirely correct. A home Atmos track consists of a TrueHD core that contains all of the object sounds already mixed for backwards compatibility. In addition there is separate meta data. When using an Atmos decoder the decoder first extracts the object sounds from the TrueHD core and then uses the meta data to place the objects as required. I believe what Keith was saying is that with a 7.1 system (No height speakers configured) an Atmos decoder recognises the meta data and so rightfully indicates playback as being Atmos. In theory it then uses the meta data to "render" objects to the appropriate speaker channels. As in this case there are no height speakers it would render those objects into the base layer 7.1 channels. Rather than extract the objects and then render them back again what in fact the decoder actually does is simply play back the TrueHD core.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 3, 2020 11:02:17 GMT -5
Exactly. As it was explained to me - the core TrueHD mix contains all the audio data. If you have a 7.1 system which doesn't include Atmos, the Atmos metadata is simply ignored, and the TrueHD core is played directly. This simplifies matters... and it allows pre-Atmos systems that don't recognize the Atmos metadata to simply ignore it.
In an Atmos system, the Atmos metadata tells the decoder how to extract the Atmos objects, which can then be positioned separately.
However, if you have an Atmos system with only 5.1 or 7.1 speakers, then the TrueHD mix already contains everything in the correct location, so is simply used as is.
Note that, from the way it was explained to me, this is the way it is supposed to work. In theory this means that, if you have a system with only 5.1 or 7.1 speakers, the Atmos metadata is not used.
It also assures perfect backwards compatibility for Atmos discs with non-Atmos systems. However, I can't promise that everyone does it exactly that way.... For example, if a company were to design both 7.1 channel AVRs, and Atmos-enabled AVRs with more channels, they might achieve good economy-of-scale by using mostly the same chips and firmware for both. And, if so, even the gear that isn't "Atmos enabled" might still recognize that Atmos metadata was present, and light an indicator lamp saying that you have an Atmos disc. I suspect that would technically not comply with the license requirements... but they would say they're telling you about the disc itself and not about how they're decoding it.
We also know that, even when playing Atmos content, on an Atmos system, it is possible to "pin" specific objects to specific speakers, or to individual speakers.
(I've seen this option in specific mastering apps... but it's quite possible that Atmos includes other command options we haven't even seen used yet.)
(And, no, I don't know what specific options they're setting when a disc is "pinned down to four height channels"... but, as end users, there's not much we can do about it anyway.)
As I understand it if you have a 7.1 non atmos system the atmos track is only reqognised as Dolby TrueHD through its core. Any atmos meta data is discarded. You simply get normal 7.1 channels. If I understood Keith correctly.. While having a 7.1 system with an atmos decoder you still get atmos meta data used but instead ”mixed” into the bed channels. From what I understand your first statement is entirely correct. A home Atmos track consists of a TrueHD core that contains all of the object sounds already mixed for backwards compatibility. In addition there is separate meta data. When using an Atmos decoder the decoder first extracts the object sounds from the TrueHD core and then uses the meta data to place the objects as required. I believe what Keith was saying is that with a 7.1 system (No height speakers configured) an Atmos decoder recognises the meta data and so rightfully indicates playback as being Atmos. In theory it then uses the meta data to "render" objects to the appropriate speaker channels. As in this case there are no height speakers it would render those objects into the base layer 7.1 channels. Rather than extract the objects and then render them back again what in fact the decoder actually does is simply play back the TrueHD core.
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