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Post by exnihilo1031 on Jan 11, 2019 23:59:45 GMT -5
Anyone had any luck running this combination together (Martin Logan ESL Electrostatics and Emotiva's DR3 Differential Reference Amp)? I have been trying to work with Emotiva to work through it but the Amp shuts off during the speakers standby wakeup. I have 2 Impression 11A and 1 Illusion C34A, and, using them in any combination (solo, or together), the DR3 will shutdown while the speakers go from standby to wakeup (charging the electrostatic panel). However, the DR3 will successfully play sound if the speakers are already awake (if you turn it back on while they are in wakeup) [Speakers wakeup due to audio signal over the speaker wire, then stay awake for at least 30minutes]. I figured I'd check here while i work with Emotiva to figure it out, in case someone has some insight. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 13, 2019 6:42:22 GMT -5
Electrostatic speakers (including your MLs) have decreasing impedance in the treble. At 20KHz, the impedance is typically significantly less than one ohm. Many amplifiers oscillate badly at those impedances, causing the amplifier to either shut down or fail. As you point out, once the amplifier is in "steady state," there is so little content at those very high frequencies so that the amplifier can run without problem, but at startup, all bets are off.
This is a typical problem with electrostatic speakers, and amplifiers intended to drive that type of speaker must have either high tolerance for or else good protection against low-impedance shorts. The fact that your DR3 amplifiers repeatedly shut down on startup indicates that they are temporarily unstable at such low impedances. Since the minimum impedance of your speakers is (far) outside the recommended impedance envelope for the amplifiers, this is not a "defect" that can be fixed. You may need to select more compatible amplifiers or different speakers.
One solution that might work would be to use longer, smaller-diameter (higher ga.) speaker wires. I've successfully used 15 feet or longer of 16 or 18ga. wires. Audioquest makes some, or you could make your own with 16-ga. lamp cord. The series impedance added by the speaker wires seems to protect the amplifiers sufficiently to allow use without further instability.
I've experienced the same problem with review samples of Martin-Logan products.
Best of luck!
Boomzilla
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Post by vcautokid on Jan 13, 2019 6:54:10 GMT -5
Anyone had any luck running this combination together (Martin Logan ESL Electrostatics and Emotiva's DR3 Differential Reference Amp)? I have been trying to work with Emotiva to work through it but the Amp shuts off during the speakers standby wakeup. I have 2 Impression 11A and 1 Illusion C34A, and, using them in any combination (solo, or together), the DR3 will shutdown while the speakers go from standby to wakeup (charging the electrostatic panel). However, the DR3 will successfully play sound if the speakers are already awake (if you turn it back on while they are in wakeup) [Speakers wakeup due to audio signal over the speaker wire, then stay awake for at least 30minutes]. I figured I'd check here while i work with Emotiva to figure it out, in case someone has some insight. Lets look at this carefully. The amp shuts off during speaker standby wake up you say. That would not be a problem with the amp. That sounds like a power service issue. Like current starvation going to the DR3. Just for giggles what if you put either on a different circuit breaker outlet. Notice I didn't say a different outlet, because it could still be on the same breaker as you are now. Bet this fixes it. If I am wrong? Well I gave it a good go with what was in front of me. |
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Post by vcautokid on Jan 13, 2019 6:57:39 GMT -5
Oh addendum to my statement. I am thinking an in rush current issue when the Logans are taken out of standby. That could eat up some current to get going and cause a momentary power sag or dip maybe enough to shut down the DR3.
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Post by adaboy on Jan 13, 2019 9:20:38 GMT -5
Directly from Martin Logans website.
IMPEDANCE:
4 Ohms (0.6 at 20kHz), compatible with any amplifier
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 13, 2019 15:19:37 GMT -5
Directly from Martin Logans website. IMPEDANCE: 4 Ohms (0.6 at 20kHz), compatible with any amplifier Martin-Logan prevaricates. Their nominal and minimum impedance numbers are correct, but what they don't say (and it's equally important) is that the impedance typically CONTINUES dropping above 20 KHz, and that at turn on, the overall impedance is lower until the electrostatic stator becomes fully charged. And now for the misdirection (to put it politely) - The Martin-Logans are definitely NOT compatible "with any amplifier." I've had an Emotiva XPA-1L blow out on startup when hooked up to ML speakers. The OP of this thread is having continued problems with his amps tripping off due to the ML speakers. These are not unique or even unusual occurrences with electrostatic speakers (of any brand). The amplifiers most compatible with electrostatic speakers are: Those with output transformers in series with the speakers' impedance (the McIntosh "autoformer-coupled" amps are in this category) Those with delayed turn-on, allowing the electrostatic stators to stabilize while the amp warms up (tube-rectified amps are in this category) Those specifically designed to be stable into low-impedance loads (Krell and most "pro" amplifiers are in this category) Note that in the Best-Buy/Magnolia kiosks nation-wide, their Martin-Logan speakers on display are ALWAYS paired with McIntosh amplifiers. This isn't to say that many (maybe even most) amplifiers won't work just fine with ML speakers - but it IS to say (emphatically) that ML speakers are not compatible with just "any" amplifier. This isn't an opinion - it's a fact (despite what Martin-Logan claims). Boomzilla |
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Post by adaboy on Jan 13, 2019 15:43:36 GMT -5
Directly from Martin Logans website. IMPEDANCE: 4 Ohms (0.6 at 20kHz), compatible with any amplifier Martin-Logan prevaricates. Their nominal and minimum impedance numbers are correct, but what they don't say (and it's equally important) is that the impedance typically CONTINUES dropping above 20 KHz, and that at turn on, the overall impedance is lower until the electrostatic stator becomes fully charged. And now for the misdirection (to put it politely) - The Martin-Logans are definitely NOT compatible "with any amplifier." I've had an Emotiva XPA-1L blow out on startup when hooked up to ML speakers. The OP of this thread is having continued problems with his amps tripping off due to the ML speakers. These are not unique or even unusual occurrences with electrostatic speakers (of any brand). The amplifiers most compatible with electrostatic speakers are: Those with output transformers in series with the speakers' impedance (the McIntosh "autoformer-coupled" amps are in this category) Those with delayed turn-on, allowing the electrostatic stators to stabilize while the amp warms up (tube-rectified amps are in this category) Those specifically designed to be stable into low-impedance loads (Krell and most "pro" amplifiers are in this category) Note that in the Best-Buy/Magnolia kiosks nation-wide, their Martin-Logan speakers on display are ALWAYS paired with McIntosh amplifiers. This isn't to say that many (maybe even most) amplifiers won't work just fine with ML speakers - but it IS to say (emphatically) that ML speakers are not compatible with just "any" amplifier. This isn't an opinion - it's a fact (despite what Martin-Logan claims). Boomzilla Good stuff Boom! As usual. Oh yeah my first run with Martin logans were at bestbuy magnolia, run by Marantz separates. I was quite impressed by the setup. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 13, 2019 16:10:30 GMT -5
Yeah - I found that an integrated amp I had on review ran the MLs perfectly, but that separate power amps were iffy. And based on your experience, my statement about MLs always being run by Mac gear is obviously not correct. But every Best-Buy/Magnolia that I've seen did use the Macs.
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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2019 17:03:46 GMT -5
Directly from Martin Logans website. IMPEDANCE: 4 Ohms (0.6 at 20kHz), compatible with any amplifier Martin-Logan prevaricates. Their nominal and minimum impedance numbers are correct, but what they don't say (and it's equally important) is that the impedance typically CONTINUES dropping above 20 KHz, and that at turn on, the overall impedance is lower until the electrostatic stator becomes fully charged. And now for the misdirection (to put it politely) - The Martin-Logans are definitely NOT compatible "with any amplifier." I've had an Emotiva XPA-1L blow out on startup when hooked up to ML speakers. The OP of this thread is having continued problems with his amps tripping off due to the ML speakers. These are not unique or even unusual occurrences with electrostatic speakers (of any brand). The amplifiers most compatible with electrostatic speakers are: Those with output transformers in series with the speakers' impedance (the McIntosh "autoformer-coupled" amps are in this category) Those with delayed turn-on, allowing the electrostatic stators to stabilize while the amp warms up (tube-rectified amps are in this category) Those specifically designed to be stable into low-impedance loads (Krell and most "pro" amplifiers are in this category) Note that in the Best-Buy/Magnolia kiosks nation-wide, their Martin-Logan speakers on display are ALWAYS paired with McIntosh amplifiers. This isn't to say that many (maybe even most) amplifiers won't work just fine with ML speakers - but it IS to say (emphatically) that ML speakers are not compatible with just "any" amplifier. This isn't an opinion - it's a fact (despite what Martin-Logan claims). Boomzilla It's actually WORSE than Boom indicates. Not only is the impedance at higher frequencies nearly a dead-short, but the REACTANCE is a dilly, too. www.stereophile.com/content/sound-lab-1-electrostatic-loudspeaker-measurementsWhile this is ONE electrostat, these measures follow the typical pattern. The 75 degrees at the highest frequencies is something that FEW amps will work well with and virtually NO HT receivers. Just read the first paragraph of the review. Than have a look at the graph of impedance and phase data. Where the 2 lines cross, if at a low impedance AND high phase angle, spells TROUBLE. Get an old Krell and be done with it. Some persons dont' agree with the Mc house sound. Another POSSIBLE solution would be to use an impedance matching transformer between amp and speaker. I can't find the link right away, but this article might be of some help. www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transformer/audio-transformer.html |
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Post by lrobertson on Jan 13, 2019 17:14:26 GMT -5
Would a Xpa-1 gen 2 be up for the task or even a Bryston? Just curious how those might handle a 11a.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 13, 2019 17:34:10 GMT -5
Impossible to predict whether the XPA-1, G-2 OR the Bryston would work. My gut feeling is that either of them SHOULD work, but you can't know until you try.
Before doing ANYTHING else, though, TRY THE LONGER, THINNER SPEAKER WIRES.
Remember that the bass of the MLs is usually self-amplified, and that you don't NEED lots of current. The slight additional impedance from the wires is probably sufficient to make almost ANY amp compatible. Audioquest makes some inexpensive 16-ga. speaker wire. Try some 15' lengths of that. I bet it solves your problems!
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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2019 18:02:59 GMT -5
Before trying the Audioquest, go to your local home store and get some ZipCord. It comes in 16 or 18, maybe even 'thinner'......
At my local store (Home Despot) you can get 25 feet of 18-2 for $4.15
Call it $.17 a foot after tax.
Problem? Issue is not JUST resistance (Impedance) but includes capacitance or inductance....together, parts of 'reactance'.
Together is when you start to get problems, even though it's certainly true that some amps simply will NOT make any power into the simpliest load
of a resistor, if the 'resistance' is too low.....
If you like planar speakers? I'm certain the DR3 would work well with Magnepan......
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Post by emofrmcgy on Jan 13, 2019 18:36:33 GMT -5
Would a Xpa-1 gen 2 be up for the task or even a Bryston? Just curious how those might handle a 11a. Sorry dude can’t find what I was looking for. Must’ve imagined it , again. |
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Post by lrobertson on Jan 13, 2019 18:41:51 GMT -5
Would a Xpa-1 gen 2 be up for the task or even a Bryston? Just curious how those might handle a 11a. Sorry dude can’t find what I was looking for. Must’ve imagined it , again. i appreciate you trying. |
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Post by exnihilo1031 on Jan 13, 2019 19:19:24 GMT -5
Thanks everyone, I have some things to try and some data to digest, it seems!
Ill be chatting with Emotiva probably Monday or Tuesday, so Ill try the thinner wire idea and the different circuit one when I get the chance.
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2019 0:01:59 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 14, 2019 14:38:22 GMT -5
Hi exnihilo1031 Please let us know what Emotiva says about this. Thanks - Boom |
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Post by donh50 on Jan 14, 2019 16:14:53 GMT -5
The impedance "seen" by a bridged amp is one-half that of a conventional (unbridged) amp so it may be a worst-case scenario for the DR-3. That said, many people are powering their ESLs with amplifiers rated far lower (and some higher) without problems at turn-on. I too am wondering if there is a power-on issue or maybe a defect in either the amp or the speaker. (Look up what old Quads did when overdriven -- short the input! Saves the speakers, hell on amplifiers...) And I would be very curious what Emotiva has to say; they do not rate the amps into 2 ohms (let alone less) but to have a turn-on surge kill the amp seems unreasonable. That very low impedance is at HF where there is usually little power (that's why ML gets away with "compatible with any amplifier"). I am betting on a problem someplace... But yeah a Sanders amp, either one, should do the trick...  |
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2019 17:23:58 GMT -5
The impedance "seen" by a bridged amp is one-half that of a conventional (unbridged) amp so it may be a worst-case scenario for the DR-3. That said, many people are powering their ESLs with amplifiers rated far lower (and some higher) without problems at turn-on. I too am wondering if there is a power-on issue or maybe a defect in either the amp or the speaker. (Look up what old Quads did when overdriven -- short the input! Saves the speakers, hell on amplifiers...) And I would be very curious what Emotiva has to say; they do not rate the amps into 2 ohms (let alone less) but to have a turn-on surge kill the amp seems unreasonable. That very low impedance is at HF where there is usually little power (that's why ML gets away with "compatible with any amplifier"). I am betting on a problem someplace... But yeah a Sanders amp, either one, should do the trick... That would be true IF we were talking resistive. Add the phase angle which could be 75 degrees and power 'demand' rises as well as the amp likely being incapable of such a load. With voltage and current so far out of whack, no wonder many amps simply......don't....... That's why, costly as it really IS, I think the Magtech is a long-term winner. You could use it for a welder..... www.stereophile.com/content/audiostatic-es-100-loudspeaker-measurementsHere's link to stereophile measure of the audiostatic speaker. they call it an easy load, but (always a but) it is of VERY low sensitivity.....about 80db, which is AWFUL and one of the lowest values I've ever seen. I'd try to find a review of the speaker in question and decide just how BAD they really were.....load wise..... |
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Post by donh50 on Jan 14, 2019 19:33:44 GMT -5
I used the word "impedance" intentionally and the power at 20 kHz and above is very low for any reasonable source. The problem I see is that the ML 11A is in the middle of ML's speaker line and many people are driving them with much less than a DR-3 with no problem. Sensitivity is rated at 91 dB/2.83 Vrms/m so not horrible (better than my current conventional speakers and much better than my old Magnepans). A quick look through some of the on-line reviews reveals a number of different integrated and power amps were used and nobody had problems driving them. If amps were routinely shutting down there would be all sorts of posts on the various audio fora and ML would be dealing with it. I really think something must be wrong with the amp or the speaker.
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