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Post by leonski on Mar 22, 2020 19:55:46 GMT -5
With balanced the impedance might be considered PER LEG. You have a 'plus' a 'minus' and a ground. ground to either, than ADD 'em up for total.......
yes, by all means, get an aqctive crossover THAN go into the speaker and disconnect the speakers internal crossover, wiring the amps directly TO the drivers....You may end up leaving
the mid / high crossover alone if running 2-way biamp...
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 22, 2020 21:05:44 GMT -5
I'm going to try something else. I just ordered some 12dB/octave inline high-pass filters with a knee at 100 Hz. If I place these in the path between the preamp and power amps, the speakers will roll off below 100 Hz. I can then use the 12dB/octave crossover on the plate amps of the subs to low-pass them at the same 100Hz. Being a second order crossover, I'll probably need to invert the phase of the sub relative to the mains, but I can test that theory with a SPL meter.
Provided that the passive, inline filters don't trash the sound, this is cheaper than any electronic crossover, and is (at least in theory) the least likely option to ruin the system's current transparency. Even if I'm not happy with the inline filters, there's nothing to keep me from "reverse engineering" them and making my own with better quality parts.
Cheers! Boomzilla
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Post by leonski on Mar 23, 2020 2:05:49 GMT -5
I PERSONALLY do not like running a crossover INTO a crossover. My low CUT (had written pass) to the mains is 3 or 4 octaves away from the internal speaker crossover.
The sub is fed a full-range signal so the subs crossover is the only one on THAT side of the coin.
Please report back on your results. Also? Forget the meter until you evaluate BY EAR, when it comes to phase flipping.
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Post by quattroll on Mar 23, 2020 14:13:35 GMT -5
I want to hear more about leaving the PA-1s on indefinitely. Is this really necessary? At first I ran them this way, at least for a couple of weeks. Over the weekend, I cleaned up my rack, dusting and removing unused wires from my old configuration. While I was at I labeled all my power cords behind my power conditioner and I decided to put the amps (3 now) on switched outlets.
I know they don’t consume much power, but leaving them on is so counter intuitive! Looking at the amp lights when everything is on seems wrong! I haven’t noticed any sound differences yet, but then again I usually have the system on for several hours, mostly tv source, before I typically turn things up and get into it.
Btw, I finally played some classical last night and it sounded great. I listened to some piano sections that blew me away, with the weight of the key strikes and the felt dampening so clear and real.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 24, 2020 2:26:09 GMT -5
I want to hear more about leaving the PA-1s on indefinitely. Is this really necessary? At first I ran them this way, at least for a couple of weeks. Over the weekend, I cleaned up my rack, dusting and removing unused wires from my old configuration. While I was at I labeled all my power cords behind my power conditioner and I decided to put the amps (3 now) on switched outlets. I know they don’t consume much power, but leaving them on is so counter intuitive! Looking at the amp lights when everything is on seems wrong! I haven’t noticed any sound differences yet, but then again I usually have the system on for several hours, mostly tv source, before I typically turn things up and get into it. Btw, I finally played some classical last night and it sounded great. I listened to some piano sections that blew me away, with the weight of the key strikes and the felt dampening so clear and real. Hi @quarttroll It depends on what you define as "really necessary". If you just turn it on and off, it'll sound just fine. But I have noticed that the treble sounds smoother and more natural if it's left on. It consumes VERY little power when left on. If after say three days you don't notice any kind of difference, I would just use the PA-1 in the manner you see fit.  There is also a thing called "light dims" that you can get on Amazon that can black out the bright power light. |
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Post by quattroll on Mar 24, 2020 23:40:54 GMT -5
Sorry if tedious to say thank you Garbulky. I switched back to always on for the 3 amps, and I also ordered the sticker blinds. Too bad they won’t be here for a month according to Amazon. No biggie, but after I switched. Trigger 1 on the XMC seems to be broken. Changed to trigger 2 and seems is working. Come to think if it, I think I toasted a trigger out on a Pioneer receiver some time ago. Anyone else have this? Maybe a question for another thread . .
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Post by arcspin on May 5, 2020 12:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on May 5, 2020 15:11:40 GMT -5
Hi arcspin - Despite the Linn's low sensitivity, and its dip to around 3 ohms at about 7KHz, the PA-1s are stable down to 2.7 Ohms, and produce between 140 and 300 honest watts each, depending on the impedance at any given frequency. I'd think that the PA-1 amps would audibly outperform your Marantz AVR. And if you don't agree, the PA-1s (being VERY small & light) are cheap to send back. But I bet that if you try them, you'll be sold. |
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Post by garbulky on May 5, 2020 21:14:20 GMT -5
I would also recommend it |
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Post by arcspin on May 5, 2020 23:14:48 GMT -5
Thank you both for your response,
Yes, these Majik 109 have quite a low sensitivity indeed.
Three PA-1´s are en route to my place and will hopefully arrive in a couple of days.
It will be an interesting weekend with some critical listening.
Fun times,
//arcspin
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Post by garbulky on May 6, 2020 3:56:46 GMT -5
Thank you both for your response, Yes, these Majik 109 have quite a low sensitivity indeed. Three PA-1´s are en route to my place and will hopefully arrive in a couple of days. It will be an interesting weekend with some critical listening. Fun times, //arcspin The only thing is that I have heard some isolated reports of a buzz from the RCA connections (the PA-1's are XLR balanced amps but can be run from unabalanced connections using an adapter which Emotiva can provide you). Hopefully you do not encounter that. On XLR connections the unit was fully silent. Congrats on your purchase. (Despite the above), I think they are excellent amps, one of the best I've heard. It may also help for you to know that I've listened extensively to amps that range between 7 watts of power and 1000 watts of power on a wide variety of speakers. Personally I've never thought even the 7 watt amp had "insufficient power". For me, it was more about whether the amps stayed robust in their output throughout the frequency range. Some amps that faltered usually show a mid range scoop or bloat in the bass or a flattened compressed sound. But all amps I've heard could get as loud as I wanted to listen without distortion. To get a sound of realistic scale and volume we are on average using only about 1/2 a watt to 1.5 watts of power imo. I remember using some mac amps and even when we tried, we couldn't get the meter to budge to the 2 watt mark. Though peaks can take a lot higher power, for the most part we are cruising at about a watt or less of power. That's why those 7 watt tube amps did just fine. Also even using the Bas-X A-100 I never encountered volume limitations on my Axiom m80 speakers. |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 6, 2020 4:03:01 GMT -5
...(the PA-1's are XLR balanced amps but can be run from unabalanced connections using an adapter which Emotiva can provide you)... Actually, the RCA adapters are included with the amps by Emotiva. |
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Post by arcspin on May 6, 2020 11:41:57 GMT -5
Yes, I have to use the RCA adapters but I have good shielded RCA cables and we in Sweden have a stable power grid with clean power so I'm not that concerned. *keeps fingers crossed*
I too are not keen on playing at crazy loud volumes, but rather have a detailed sound at moderate levels.
It will be interesting to hear my setup before and after the PA-1´s.
I'll report back.
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Post by leonski on May 6, 2020 18:57:46 GMT -5
Good review Boom, although I still have zero interest in a 140 wpc....or less monoblock Class D amp. At least if you are going to get in the game, get in it. 300 wpc should be the minimum knowing you can grab a Crown stereo amp for under $300 with way more power. This just seems like a baby step into the foray of Class D at a high price. Oh well, I'm sure they are selling plenty of them....or they will be discontinued in eight months. Usually the rule of thumb now. I wish power were the only thing that counted. Don't be blinded by a 'big' number. Also? How was, or under what conditions, was the measure taken? Even B&O has 30 sec or 60 sec time-at-power limits, not to mention freuquency limits because of the output Zobel which 'D' amps all have. |
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Post by teaman on May 6, 2020 19:04:31 GMT -5
Good review Boom, although I still have zero interest in a 140 wpc....or less monoblock Class D amp. At least if you are going to get in the game, get in it. 300 wpc should be the minimum knowing you can grab a Crown stereo amp for under $300 with way more power. This just seems like a baby step into the foray of Class D at a high price. Oh well, I'm sure they are selling plenty of them....or they will be discontinued in eight months. Usually the rule of thumb now. I wish power were the only thing that counted. Don't be blinded by a 'big' number. Also? How was, or under what conditions, was the measure taken? Even B&O has 30 sec or 60 sec time-at-power limits, not to mention freuquency limits because of the output Zobel which 'D' amps all have. All I can state from experience is that even my 102db efficient Klipsch KLF-30’s sound better with each power increase I’ve given them. I started with the UPA-2, then XPA-2, and now XPA-1’s. My ears tell me much more than any specs can. Same went for my process with my Infinity towers. To each their own. Tim |
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Post by leonski on May 6, 2020 19:06:39 GMT -5
Sort of depends on the space into which you expect this to work. The Majjk is much lower in sensitivity (by 3db) than the factory 1khz value. Your amp will drive these easily, but How Loud? And in how large a space? I think a good sub crossed 1/2 octave or so above the speakers -6db point of in the 60hz range would be good. Don't cross TOO high or you'll start to locate the sub by EAR. Arrange to low-cut the speakers at slightly above your chosen crossover. My Parasound preamp makes this kind of adjustment fairly routine. Within the limits of the amp, they should work very well. Electrically. Will the 'D' amp agree with 'em AND your ears? Test will tell. And don't overdrive the speakers. |
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Post by leonski on May 6, 2020 19:08:01 GMT -5
I wish power were the only thing that counted. Don't be blinded by a 'big' number. Also? How was, or under what conditions, was the measure taken? Even B&O has 30 sec or 60 sec time-at-power limits, not to mention freuquency limits because of the output Zobel which 'D' amps all have. All I can state from experience is that even my 102db efficient Klipsch KLF-30’s sound better with each power increase I’ve given them. I started with the UPA-2, then XPA-2, and now XPA-1’s. My ears tell me much more than any specs can. Same went for my process with my Infinity towers. To each their own. Tim Better watts are better than MORE watts. If you are happy, than I have nothing to beef about. It's all about system values and what YOU value as a listener. |
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Post by arcspin on May 10, 2020 9:36:12 GMT -5
Ok, I got the PA-1´s and installed them in my current system. As I already have an Emotiva BasX A-150 for my top center atmos channel. I did connect the top center atmos channels to the Receiver and added the two PA-1 to the front channels instead. Sure enough there is clearly an audible buzz coming from both speakers when connecting the two PA-1 with RCA and a grounded electrical plug. *damn* I did take the opportunity to listen to some music while the PA-1 was connected as an external power amplifier and I'm not an audiophile but I did clearly hear a difference in sound and clarity of the music. This was not a subtle nuance but rather a distinct clarity, I have read others saying "it was like a veil was lifted" and I did for sure hear much more details from the music with the PA-1. I do not find the right words describing this as English is not my maiden language but it was absolutely, and easy to hear, a more detailed sound coming from my speakers using the PA-1 instead of the internal amplifiers from my SR-7011. I will keep the PA-1 and are now ordering some adapters from grounded to not grounded, like this one: C8 to C13This might be an expensive buy as I now have to investigate what I need to do to be able to mix and match external amps to my system. anyways, First let see how things goes with the non grounded adapters. Take care, //arcspin |
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Post by leonski on May 10, 2020 14:55:19 GMT -5
Ground loop hum / buzz CAN be a nightmare to track down. You need to start a process-of-elimination with amps plugged in and on and connected TO the speaker. THAN work back. Connect stuff ONE at at time and listen again. You may want to check out a power conditioner to eliminate DC Offset from your power line I'd also recommend as a normal part of your kit, an OUTLET TESTER. these are dirt cheap and available everywhere. Other sources of system noise can be anything from a computer PS (a switcher) to the darn refrigerator or washer / dryer. If you live in an apartment, you may have a 'noisy' neighbor......* www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Outlet-Tester-OT-112R/206029154 |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 10, 2020 19:46:00 GMT -5
All I can state from experience is that even my 102db efficient Klipsch KLF-30’s sound better with each power increase I’ve given them. I started with the UPA-2, then XPA-2, and now XPA-1’s. My ears tell me much more than any specs can. Same went for my process with my Infinity towers. To each their own. Tim Hi teaman - I believe you, but there ARE exceptions... I’ve got a pair of 12-watt Heathkit tube amps that will give your XPA-1s a run for the money with highly-sensitive speakers like your KLF-30s! Doubt it? Ask garbulky - he owns XPA-1s and has heard the Heathkits. I’d think that some Dynaco Mk. IIIs or some Quicksilvers might surprise you. |
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