The trials and tribulations of Roon...

[KeithL]

When you actually TAG a file, the metadata you enter is physically stored in the individual file, as actual text fields embedded in the file (there are a whole bunch of different standards - one or two of which are most popular).

Then, when you "read those files into your library", or "import the library", all of the data in the tags is read, collated, and presented in a sort of report.

In that case, even if the report becomes garbled, the actual tags should be fine.

However, many programs, rather than tag the files themselves, store the metadata in a separate database, and others may do both.

(No reputable program should alter your files without informing you and asking permission.)

(Assuming the tags themselves are actually there then having a single file become corrupted would only garble a single tag...)

WAV files can in fact be tagged - but not all programs can read or write the tag standard that they use.

Therefore, it's POSSIBLE that all of his files are really tagged, but that Roon, being unable to read the tags, did its best to figure out what the tracks were by looking them up....

(If so, then it might have guessed using things like the file names, which would account for the odd and inconsistent interpretation.)

It's also possible that jRiver can't tag WAV files, and so stored the data he entered into a separate database....

In that case, Roon could have either been unable to read it, or messed up the read, and simply tried its best to figure things out.

It's also possible that certain converters may successfully convert certain types of tags and not others.

(This means that some programs may discard the tags when converting to or from WAV... because they don't understand how to read or save WAV tags.)

Also note that not all programs treat tags the same way... (just like any other database fields).

For example, one program may consider "Album", "ALBUM", and "album" to all mean the same thing, while a different program may consider them all to be different, or recognize one and not the other.

HOWEVER....

If the metadata is really stored as separate tags in the original files, and only the Roon database is garbled, then the original tags in the individual files should be fine - as long as the files themselves weren't altered.
This should be easy to see by looking at the actual files in a separate tag editor (like Tag & Rename - which can read pretty much any tag).
If so, then there should be some way to sort them out, and recover the situation.

And, if the data was in an external jRiver database, then that should also be intact, even if Roon's attempt to translate it was garbled, and again the original data may be OK.

If so, then the files should still read correctly if you open them, or a backup copy, in jRiver.

At which point we can try to figure out another way to rescue the data.

Of course, we can always go to the backup of the music library that was stored before it was imported into Roon, right?

From the description of how things ended up....

It rather sounds like Roon was simply unable to read some or all of his manually entered tags and tried to figure things out on its own.

(Of course that's a guess.)

However, odds are, if we figure out what went wrong, it can be undone...

From this FAQ, it appears that Roon uses a variety of strategies to attempt to label and identify content....
community.roonlabs.com/t/what-can-i-do-to-improve-my-metadata-matches/218

It also looks like they HIDE duplicates but don't delete them....
kb.roonlabs.com/FAQ:_I_have_multiple_versions_of_the_same_album%2C_but_I_only_see_one_album_cover._Where_are_the_other_versions%3F

AND, ACCORDING TO *THIS*, ROON SHOULD *NOT* HAVE ALTERED OR DELETED ANY OF YOUR ORIGINAL FILES OR THEIR TAGS
kb.roonlabs.com/FAQ:_Will_Roon_alter_my_audio_files_or_tags_in_any_way_when_I_import_them%3F

Jun 3, 2019 13:19:49 GMT -5 klinemj said:

KeithL maybe you missed it above. He did a lot of manual tagging of WAV files My guess is something got boogered up there. I have had no issue ripping FLAC with Jriver and using Roon or other players to play it. Same for many others here. And, many of us who did rip to WAV used JRMC and dbpa to batch convert to FLAC successfully.

Mark

[bluemeanies]

Jun 3, 2019 16:17:02 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

bluemeanies - I spend a total of zero minutes a week curating my collection. I do spend time looking for good new albums on Tidal to add to my collection.

PS - I tried Qubuz for a month, but dropped it. Simply not enough albums I wanted to listen to were available on Qubuz (I think it's still very Euro-centric and heavy on Classical). I have zero issues with Tidal.

PPS - Using physical CDs in 2019 would take a LOT more work than my zero minutes per month.

Wilbur
I was only offering an alternative.
I have been using TIDAL now for 4 years and Yes there were problems like drop offs which for a while now have been remedied. I understand the time and dedication people have with organizing their music and I respect that ethic.
I am not knocking ROON or anyone using it.
Everyone has their preferences.
It seems though BOOM had devoted lots of hours cataloging his music ...now for nothing .
I truly hope he is able to contact ROON and they are able to help and find his repertoire.

[wilburthegoose]

bluemeanies - I too spent a LOT of time, but I'm on version 5 of my music library, and today, I'm at my zenith:
v1: 2300 CD collections, filling up 5 bookcases.
v2: 5 Sony megachanger CD players. All controlled from my PC with the old Nirvis Slink-E.
v3. I ripped all my CDs in MP3 (disk space was expensive)
v4: After I got my XMC-1, the audio difference between FLAC and MP3 was apparent. Controlled with JRiver.
v5: Roon. Best move ever for me.

Fortunately, I have an ancient Sony CD/DVD 200 disk changer that can be controlled from a PC. VGP-XL1B. I bulked ripped them to FLAC with dbPoweramp, but I was required to purchase metadata because of the bulk aspect of my ripping.

[klinemj]

KeithL - yeah, you basically said in a long way what I was saying in a short way. This is why I (and many others) have suggested trying to use a batch converter to convert his WAV to FLAC, then use Roon.

It's an easy thing to do and test. If it solves his problem, then...done...

Mark

[Boomzilla]

Converting now. At the rate it's going, the conversions should be finished by tomorrow about noon.

[GreenKiwi]

Jun 3, 2019 9:05:19 GMT -5 klinemj said:

looks like we posted at the same time...JRMC also has batch convert. Not sure which is better at it...dbpa or jrmc.

Mark

I'd do JRMC to start, since I'm guessing that there is meta data in JRMC associated with the various WAV files. It's much more likely at getting it right. And it's likely they use the same lib underneigth

[bluemeanies]

In the end it does not matter what Boom SHOULD HAVE done or what others are doing (Flac,dbpoweramp,river)

Any LUCK BOOM?

[KeithL]

According to his latest PM Boom has things under control - as much as possible anyway....

However, it does matter a lot to anyone who's just starting out, or who's worried about ending up in the same boat.

When you add metadata using jRiver, or Roon, or any other "music library manager program", you are allowing that program to choose how that information is entered and stored.

And, in most cases, that information is NOT stored directly in the individual files as tags in a standard format.

Therefore, if something goes wrong, or you decide to switch programs later, you may lose some or all of it.

Oddly, most program authors aren't very worried about you losing the data you entered if you decide to stop using their program and switch to something else...

(When you use Roon, it uses your tags, plus information it collects from other places, to populate its database.)

If you're lucky, your new program will be able to import data directly from your old program, but don't count on it.

(For example, many programs can import information from iTunes.)

HOWEVER, if you use a dedicated program like dBPowerAmp, and have it actually tag the individual files with the track and album information...

Or if you use a separate tagging editor, like Tag & Rename, to tag your files before you import them into your library program...

In a standard format...

Then the information you enter RESIDES IN THE INDIVIDUAL FILES.

Therefore, if you decide to change programs later, when you re-import your library into your new program, all of that information will still be there.

(And, yes, if you decide to convert your files to a different format, you'll need to make sure your tags make it through the transition.)

It's simply a matter of keeping your work safe by NOT entrusting it to one particular program - which you may move away from later.

Jun 4, 2019 4:03:59 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

In the end it does not matter what Boom SHOULD HAVE done or what others are doing (Flac,dbpoweramp,river)

Any LUCK BOOM?

[klinemj]

And we are anxiously awaiting the results of Schleprock's, I mean boom's, conversion to FLAC...

Hoping it works.

Mark

[klinemj]

Jun 3, 2019 12:04:39 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

Actually, you're right monkumonku ! I meant Pig Pen

I thought you meant Schleprock from the Flintstones.

Mark

[klinemj]

Any update?

Mark

[Boomzilla]

DB Poweramp finished its conversion with over 6,000 error messages (files not successfully converted). This is about 5 to 8% of the files on the drive (I tried to paste the error report into a post here, but it was truncated for length, and then doesn't show up in the thread at all - Thanks, ProBoards!). I've tried playing some of the files that DP Powramp flagged as errors (still in their native WAV format), and they seem to play just fine.

This was a BAD mistake on my part. I should have used JRiver for the conversion since I know that the metadata was intact there.

Now I face some choices: The JRiver metadata-database (JRMD) itself still exists (intact) on both the main drive and the backup drive. The main drive still has WAV files, the backup drive has (primarily) FLAC files. If I'm intent on actually going with FLAC, I could use JRiver to convert the main drive to FLAC. This should preserve the correct artwork & metadata during the conversion due to use of the JRMD.

If I don't want to do that, I could revert to using JRiver with the main drive, wipe the backup drive, and then make a new backup, leaving all files in WAV format.

Alternately, I can spend a month or two pruning and reorganizing the backup drive from Roon (using the FLAC files that successfully converted).

All options have their own set of plusses and minuses, and I'll have to carefully weigh the choices before I make any further changes.

Boomzilla

[KeithL]

Ouch....

It would be very interesting to know if the files themselves are actually damaged...
Or if they just contain tags in some odd format that dBPowerAmp can't read.
(Roon supposedly won't modify your files unless you check a box giving it permission to do so.)

Jun 5, 2019 22:10:39 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

DB Poweramp finished its conversion with over 6,000 error messages (files not successfully converted). This is about 5 to 8% of the files on the drive (I tried to paste the error report into a post here, but it was truncated for length, and then doesn't show up in the thread at all - Thanks, ProBoards!). I've tried playing some of the files that DP Powramp flagged as errors (still in their native WAV format), and they seem to play just fine.

This was a BAD mistake on my part. I should have used JRiver for the conversion since I know that the metadata was intact there.

Now I face some choices: The JRiver metadata-database (JRMD) itself still exists (intact) on both the main drive and the backup drive. The main drive still has WAV files, the backup drive has (primarily) FLAC files. If I'm intent on actually going with FLAC, I could use JRiver to convert the main drive to FLAC. This should preserve the correct artwork & metadata during the conversion due to use of the JRMD.

If I don't want to do that, I could revert to using JRiver with the main drive, wipe the backup drive, and then make a new backup, leaving all files in WAV format.

Alternately, I can spend a month or two pruning and reorganizing the backup drive from Roon (using the FLAC files that successfully converted).

All options have their own set of plusses and minuses, and I'll have to carefully weigh the choices before I make any further changes.

Boomzilla

[Loop 7]

Jun 5, 2019 23:36:13 GMT -5 KeithL said:

(Roon supposedly won't modify your files unless you check a box giving it permission to do so.)

Not supposedly.

It's a FACT and a feature of Roon. One can decide if they want modify metadata using the Roon interface.

I highly recommend someone at Emotiva give Roon a try so you can accurately portray the service and apps. It's just something I think a manufacturer of high end audio gear should have in their knowledge base.

[klinemj]

Boomzilla

If I were you, I'd keep it simple. In your OP, you said that Roon didn't properly bring in certain files...it chopped them up into different selections.

Just convert a few files that Roon had an issue with and see if they come in properly and use JRMC to do it. If they come in properly, great - do more. If not...well...

Mark

[GreenKiwi]

If I don't want to do that, I could revert to using JRiver with the main drive, wipe the backup drive, and then make a new backup, leaving all files in WAV format.

@boom -- I'd take the approach you outlined here. It's the safest option. Wipe the backup and recreate it, then use JRMC to convert all the files to FLAC. Hopefully wiping and recreating doesn't take too long, maybe overnight?

[Boomzilla]

Thank you so kindly. The advice and guidance I'm getting from youse guys is SO valuable, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to help.

I think that my plan forward from here is as follows:

Use the main drive (that still has the most accurate JRiver metadata-database) and make TWO backup copies. This will give me a true backup of the best copy of the library that I have at this time and a "working copy" to experiment with.

Using the working copy, I'll let JRiver revert all the "Pre-Roon" files to their JRiver folders. I'll then import (into JRiver) all the files and folders added since I switched to Roon, using JRiver to collect, sort, and tag all the new files correctly. At this point, the "working copy" drive will have a fully JRiver-compatible and accurately-indexed set of all files.

Then, I'll totally erase the main drive (remember that the backup drive still has all the identical files), and slowly transfer a few albums at a time from the JRiver "working copy" drive to the main drive. This will let Roon reindex the main drive after each incremental file transfer. If Roon displays the albums as separate file folders or mangles artwork, I can repair the situation in Roon (on the main drive) before importing any more albums. For "problem children" files where they're considered damaged, I can re-rip (using DB Poweramp) from the original CDs.

This will take longer, but it seems the most secure way to avoid data loss and to ensure accuracy. And it works whether I choose to keep the files in WAV or FLAC format.

Thanks again - Boomzilla

[wilburthegoose]

How did you originally rip your files? Have you considered re-ripping (I've ripped over 2300 CDs twice, and it's not too bad if you have a bulk ripping device)

That said, I'd try to convert a WAV file with JRiver that dbPoweramp had problems with. My hunch is that your WAV files may be bad.

[klinemj]

I'll once more reiterate my point above...start small. Do a test of some files that didn't work right before...if your new approach does not solve those, it's not worth the time.

Mark

[KeithL]

In that case, unless any of the files were physically corrupted some other way, then none of the originally tagged information should be lost...

(If so, then any information that was added when they were ripped, by something like dBPowerAmp, should still be present and OK as well.)

And the only question is if there is any way to recover the information that was added by Roon.

If it doesn't modify the files then it MUST store all that information in a separate database.

If Roon doesn't alter the files, then it cannot have stored any of the new information that was added in tags, since it can't do that without altering the files.

It also stands to reason that, as long as Roon never alters the files, this situation can be easily avoided in the future by others....

Just ALWAYS enter any important information you want into the files as tags before importing them into Roon (either manually, or by ripping them with something that does it automatically, like dBPowerAmp).

If you don't allow Roon to add any information afterwards, then all of the information you see will remain stored in the files, as tags.

And, if you abandon Roon later, all you'll lose is any extra stuff it added after the files were ingested.

QED.....

If the files are now corrupted, but Roon didn't alter them, then either they suffered from some sort of computer-related file corruption...

(That seems like an awful lot of files to get corrupted... and the fact that they still play OK strongly suggests against this being the case.)

Or they aren't really corrupted at all and it's just some sort of compatibility issue with the program that originally ripped them.

Another question would be whether the files involved were ever copied between different operating systems... for example between a PC and a Mac.

(For example, if they were ripped using something like VortexBox, which is Linux-based, then copied over to a PC.)

Sometimes, when you move a file between operating systems, or between programs running on different O/S, things like EOF tags, which are part of the file itself, may be altered.

This can make a file appear to be corrupt to certain other programs.

(But, if this is what happened, the file isn't really damaged, and it may be able to be fixed.)

Jun 6, 2019 1:47:07 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

Jun 5, 2019 23:36:13 GMT -5 KeithL said:

(Roon supposedly won't modify your files unless you check a box giving it permission to do so.)

Not supposedly.

It's a FACT and a feature of Roon. One can decide if they want modify metadata using the Roon interface.

I highly recommend someone at Emotiva give Roon a try so you can accurately portray the service and apps. It's just something I think a manufacturer of high end audio gear should have in their knowledge base.