KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 6, 2019 8:46:40 GMT -5
According to a few folks here, and the Roon FAQ itself, Roon should NOT have altered the files themselves. Therefore, any information actually in tags inside the files, including any added when they were ripped, should be perfectly intact (as long as the files themselves aren't damaged). (If you used a tag editor to add or alter information before the files were imported into Roon - then, at that point, it altered the files in order to change the tags.)
However, if that's the case, then any data you added in Roon CANNOT be in tags in the files (it could not have added anything to the tags without altering the files). For a computer to have corrupted that many files is really unusual... And, for it to have done so, but leave them in playable condition, is VERY unusual... So that's probably not what happened.
However, compatibility issues between programs, including word processors, and tag editors, isn't really all that uncommon.
Before you do anything else I would REALLY suggest looking at some of those supposedly damaged files in a universal tag editor - like Tag & Rename. That will tell you if they're really damaged - or if they really just have some odd tags which dBPowerAmp is mis-interpreting as file damage.
(dBPowerAmp is very powerful - but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't fussy.)
Thank you so kindly. The advice and guidance I'm getting from youse guys is SO valuable, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to help. I think that my plan forward from here is as follows: Use the main drive (that still has the most accurate JRiver metadata-database) and make TWO backup copies. This will give me a true backup of the best copy of the library that I have at this time and a "working copy" to experiment with. Using the working copy, I'll let JRiver revert all the "Pre-Roon" files to their JRiver folders. I'll then import (into JRiver) all the files and folders added since I switched to Roon, using JRiver to collect, sort, and tag all the new files correctly. At this point, the "working copy" drive will have a fully JRiver-compatible and accurately-indexed set of all files. Then, I'll totally erase the main drive (remember that the backup drive still has all the identical files), and slowly transfer a few albums at a time from the JRiver "working copy" drive to the main drive. This will let Roon reindex the main drive after each incremental file transfer. If Roon displays the albums as separate file folders or mangles artwork, I can repair the situation in Roon (on the main drive) before importing any more albums. For "problem children" files where they're considered damaged, I can re-rip (using DB Poweramp) from the original CDs. This will take longer, but it seems the most secure way to avoid data loss and to ensure accuracy. And it works whether I choose to keep the files in WAV or FLAC format. Thanks again - Boomzilla |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 6, 2019 9:59:32 GMT -5
Thank you so kindly. The advice and guidance I'm getting from youse guys is SO valuable, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to help. I think that my plan forward from here is as follows: Use the main drive (that still has the most accurate JRiver metadata-database) and make TWO backup copies. This will give me a true backup of the best copy of the library that I have at this time and a "working copy" to experiment with. Using the working copy, I'll let JRiver revert all the "Pre-Roon" files to their JRiver folders. I'll then import (into JRiver) all the files and folders added since I switched to Roon, using JRiver to collect, sort, and tag all the new files correctly. At this point, the "working copy" drive will have a fully JRiver-compatible and accurately-indexed set of all files. Then, I'll totally erase the main drive (remember that the backup drive still has all the identical files), and slowly transfer a few albums at a time from the JRiver "working copy" drive to the main drive. This will let Roon reindex the main drive after each incremental file transfer. If Roon displays the albums as separate file folders or mangles artwork, I can repair the situation in Roon (on the main drive) before importing any more albums. For "problem children" files where they're considered damaged, I can re-rip (using DB Poweramp) from the original CDs. This will take longer, but it seems the most secure way to avoid data loss and to ensure accuracy. And it works whether I choose to keep the files in WAV or FLAC format. Thanks again - Boomzilla Well good luck... get this issue conquered, and then you can change your moniker to Roonzilla! |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 10, 2019 13:24:29 GMT -5
Boomzilla Just curious if you've tried a small test of key files w/JRMC yet and if so - what the results were. Mark
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jun 10, 2019 22:48:41 GMT -5
Sorry I'm late to respond — my new job is sucking up a lot of time.
Roon has it's own library of tags and will use those in preference to yours. Generally this isn't a problem since their curated tags are very good, but sometimes is an issue. Maybe it can't identify the songs because they're separate cuts and isn't bothering using your tags?
In any case, there's a setting in Roon that you can say that you want your tags to take precedence.
Casey
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Post by wizardofoz on Jun 12, 2019 3:40:36 GMT -5
I would also stop roon while you are converting and let it run against the new converted files once it’s completed the conversion...midstream roon analysis while copy’s are going on is not recommended.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2019 9:34:35 GMT -5
What I'm finding, while converting a few albums at a time to Roon, is that Roon scrambles the track numbers, then doesn't recognize the tracks as an album, and creates multiple "albums" each with one and only one track.
To undo this, I have to edit each and every track, correcting its track number (while looking at an external track list in my browser), and then individually combine all the tracks into a single album. It's a PITA. The other thing I notice is that NONE of the track times in Roon match what the Amazon listing of the tracks (for example) shows. So if I have two copies of a song, I have to guess which track belongs with the source album and which of the tracks was actually a single track from some other compilation album.
I don't understand why Roon is renumbering my tracks.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 13, 2019 9:55:46 GMT -5
I don't understand why Roon is renumbering my tracks. I have never had that behavior happen in my system. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 13, 2019 10:29:01 GMT -5
I don't understand why Roon is renumbering my tracks. I have never had that behavior happen in my system. Me either...I keep wondering if something happened to the original files as boom manually edited them that is creating an issue for Roon. Mark |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 13, 2019 10:51:25 GMT -5
I've never personally used Roon....
However, the consensus I'm hearing, here and elsewhere, is that Roon does a good job.... if you let IT handle everything.... But can be somewhat problematic if you want to override what it wants to do.... I've also seen, in various places, advice about "how to tag and name files if you want to ensure that Roon will handle them the way you expect".
I assume you can also disable all of the automated features - but then you'll have to do it all manually.
I personally usually avoid any product that insists on my "doing things its way"...
I have never had that behavior happen in my system. Me either...I keep wondering if something happened to the original files as boom manually edited them that is creating an issue for Roon. Mark |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 13, 2019 11:07:54 GMT -5
I've never personally used Roon.... However, the consensus I'm hearing, here and elsewhere, is that Roon does a good job.... if you let IT handle everything.... But can be somewhat problematic if you want to override what it wants to do.... I've also seen, in various places, advice about "how to tag and name files if you want to ensure that Roon will handle them the way you expect".
I assume you can also disable all of the automated features - but then you'll have to do it all manually.
I personally usually avoid any product that insists on my "doing things its way"...
Me either...I keep wondering if something happened to the original files as boom manually edited them that is creating an issue for Roon. Mark Exactly. Just let the software do its thing. But if the user insists on overriding what it does or being anal about how the files appear on the hard drive or not understanding how to use the tools inside Roon but rather try to do things manually or whatever, then you can screw it up quickly. |
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Post by Loop 7 on Jun 13, 2019 11:42:24 GMT -5
Boomzilla - Hey - that sucks you are dealing with these hassles. Almost more effort than it's worth. My Roon experience has been 99% flawless but I've never done any metadata editing within Roon. I rely on CD ripping tools PLUS, before adding to the library, I check the metadata using allmusic.com and make small changes using an app called TAG. My attitude is a little work up front and then it's good until I become worm food. For ripping CDs, I would personally stay away from all but these rippers: dBpoweramp, XLD (Mac OS only) , JRIver and iTunes (iTunes has stellar metadata - just wish it could rip to FLAC).
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 13, 2019 12:06:08 GMT -5
I've never personally used Roon.... However, the consensus I'm hearing, here and elsewhere, is that Roon does a good job.... if you let IT handle everything.... But can be somewhat problematic if you want to override what it wants to do.... I've also seen, in various places, advice about "how to tag and name files if you want to ensure that Roon will handle them the way you expect".
I assume you can also disable all of the automated features - but then you'll have to do it all manually.
I personally usually avoid any product that insists on my "doing things its way"...
Me either...I keep wondering if something happened to the original files as boom manually edited them that is creating an issue for Roon. Mark In this case, the files had been manipulated PRIOR to going into Roon. Boom is not trying to monkey around with the tags in Roon (yet). I suspect that whatever prior mods he did in adding metadata to the WAV files are creating the issue he is seeing. Hey Boomzilla - this gives me an idea! Take a couple of those troublesome ones, use JRiver or dbpoweramp to do fresh rips to FLAC. That should put fresh/virgin metadata in for those disks. Then, see what Room does with those. If all works fine, then whatever happened in your original ripping to WAV and editing of metadata created the issue. If it does not, then - there's just something really weird with those particular recordings. Mark |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 13, 2019 12:30:08 GMT -5
Boomzilla - Hey - that sucks you are dealing with these hassles. Almost more effort than it's worth. My Roon experience has been 99% flawless but I've never done any metadata editing within Roon. I rely on CD ripping tools PLUS, before adding to the library, I check the metadata using allmusic.com and make small changes using an app called TAG. My attitude is a little work up front and then it's good until I become worm food. For ripping CDs, I would personally stay away from all but these rippers: dBpoweramp, XLD (Mac OS only) , JRIver and iTunes (iTunes has stellar metadata - just wish it could rip to FLAC). I agree. And by the way I use iTunes almost exclusively for ripping. The difference between ALAC and FLAC = compression scheme. ALAC takes up slightly less hard drive space. Sound is the same (and yes I have tested that hypothesis with the same CD since my Vortexbox rips to FLAC.) |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2019 14:16:08 GMT -5
...Just let the software do its thing. But if the user insists on overriding what it does or being anal about how the files appear on the hard drive or not understanding how to use the tools inside Roon but rather try to do things manually or whatever, then you can screw it up quickly. I'd agree totally except for the fact that I didn't mess with Roon at all. I hooked up my (previously indexed by JRiver) data disc, pointed Roon toward it using whatever defaults Roon wished to use, and got eight or ten times the "albums" I previously had - Many with tracks misnumered, many showing "albums" with only one or two tracks in them, and many with missing or scrambled artwork. Despite those who would somehow like to imply that this is MY fault, I can assure you that I followed Roon's instructions to the letter. I'm reporting to you EXACTLY what's happened. I have no idea why, and don't seem anywhere close to a solution. The "Roon-Scatter" seems to happen whether I import one or two files at a time or whether I import a whole drive. I've been nagged by some to just switch to FLAC and embed all the metadata in the files. But since everything's already in WAV and sounds fine that way, I'd just as soon not convert if I can avoid it. I will continue to Google and to experiment with Roon in search of better import performance. If I find a magic bullet, I'll post it here. Boom |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2019 14:28:28 GMT -5
In this case, the files had been manipulated PRIOR to going into Roon. Boom is not trying to monkey around with the tags in Roon (yet). I suspect that whatever prior mods he did in adding metadata to the WAV files are creating the issue he is seeing. Actually, no - they hadn't. When I ripped from JRiver, I used its internal ripper, and got accurate track numbers, album art, track times, and artwork on first try 99.9% of the time. Hey Boomzilla - this gives me an idea! Take a couple of those troublesome ones, use JRiver or dbpoweramp to do fresh rips to FLAC. That should put fresh/virgin metadata in for those disks. Then, see what Room does with those. If all works fine, then whatever happened in your original ripping to WAV and editing of metadata created the issue. If it does not, then - there's just something really weird with those particular recordings. Mark Yep - this is a feasible plan. Some of my older music has been through multiple music programs and formats. When I first started ripping, I used iTunes and Apple's ALE (Apple Lossless Encoder) format. When iTunes began eating files, I switched to JRiver. For some reason, JRiver didn't sound as good with those ALE files, so I used JRiver to convert them all to WAV. The bulk of my files were added using the JRiver WAV ripper/encoder. All was well until I noticed that JRiver would occasionally down-res my CD-quality audio to MP3 in the background and without telling me when streaming over Ethernet. Phooey on that! I then switched to Roon, which (aside from its conversion problems) seems to stream at the native resolution consistently over Ethernet. I see two potential paths going forward: 1. Work with Roon until I get its import problems solved or 2. Try the new iTunes Music app again to see if the "ate your files" gene is gone Time will tell... |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 13, 2019 14:37:42 GMT -5
Sounds like an issue with wehatever JRiver did to those files to me.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 13, 2019 15:56:15 GMT -5
BoomzillaBased on this comment from you in the OP, I thought you had manually edited to include the metadata. I'm also confused that you said the files included track number. In my experience, ripping to WAV did not include a track number in the metadata itself. It showed me one any looked right when I viewed it in certain programs, but when I played the file (in Sonos, for example) the tracks played in alphabetical order and not in track # order. Some research at the time revealed the issue of track # not actually being in the metadata. In any case, you also mention the various "dances" you did with some of the older files. Are they the ones causing the most problem? If so, maybe the problem is unrelated to WAV vs. FLAC and related to those things and maybe roon is just not over-riding them or can't sort them out. Regarding the new itunes and the "will be files go away?", you have been bitten before. And, don't forget the sage advice from "W" Bush: “There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.” Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 13, 2019 16:16:36 GMT -5
It simply sounds as if the tags AS ENTERED BY JRIVER were interpreted somewhat differently by ROON.
The tags that are included in a file as metadata are entirely configurable by the user. Programs like jRiver and dBPowerAmp have their own defaults, but you can edit them if you like, and either change the names or contents of the default tags, or make up your own tags entirely. So, for example, you could ADD a Tag Field named "Track#" and have the ripping program insert the track number into it. Or, as I do, you could actually construct a tag that includes the track name and configure the program to use it. (Obviously different programs vary in terms of what they let you customize.)
For example, I have dBPowerAmp configured to enter this into the "Track Name" field: Track#" - "SongName (don't trust that to be the exact correct programming syntax for dBPowerAmp)
The result is that my tags for Dark Side of the Moon read as: Album Name = "Dark Side Of The Moon" Group Name = "Pink Floyd" Genre = "Classic Rock"
Track Number = "01"
Track Name = "01 - Money"
I also have it configured to save that track under the file name of "01 - Money.FLAC" And store it on the disc as C:\LIBRARY\Pink Floyd\Dark Side Of The Moon\01 - Money.FLAC
(DBPowerAmp allows me to program all of that to happen at the same time as the CD is ripped.)
That way, no matter what program I use, and whether it sorts by the track number, or alphabetically by the song name, or by actual file name, they ALWAYS list in the correct order.
(And, yes, it took a bit of effort to figure all that out.)
Boomzilla Based on this comment from you in the OP, I thought you had manually edited to include the metadata. I'm also confused that you said the files included track number. In my experience, ripping to WAV did not include a track number in the metadata itself. It showed me one any looked right when I viewed it in certain programs, but when I played the file (in Sonos, for example) the tracks played in alphabetical order and not in track # order. Some research at the time revealed the issue of track # not actually being in the metadata. In any case, you also mention the various "dances" you did with some of the older files. Are they the ones causing the most problem? If so, maybe the problem is unrelated to WAV vs. FLAC and related to those things and maybe roon is just not over-riding them or can't sort them out. Regarding the new itunes and the "will be files go away?", you have been bitten before. And, don't forget the sage advice from "W" Bush: “There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.” Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 13, 2019 16:29:05 GMT -5
It simply sounds as if the tags AS ENTERED BY JRIVER were interpreted somewhat differently by ROON. I think you are jumping to a conclusion...go back and re-read his posts. There are many possibly culprits still. And, until he isolates what the root causes are, he won't resolve them. I've suggested some tests for him to run to isolate the causes. You got any better ideas/better things for him to try? FYI, if the issue were merely JRiver rips going to Roon, anyone who ripped using JRiver into WAV then converted to FLAC would have the same Roon issue he is having. I don't. Dyohn does. Many others don't. So, something else it in play. Mark (PS - I know everything you put into the rest of you post about ripping and metadata...basic stuff about ripping that anyone who has done it for a while knows. But, thanks for sharing...) |
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Post by Loop 7 on Jun 14, 2019 0:55:05 GMT -5
And just to add something irrelevant, if anyone wants the quality superiority of an uncompressed format, AIFF handles metadata much better than WAV.
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