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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 15, 2020 6:46:32 GMT -5
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 11:03:42 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2020 16:15:33 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? Probably, I solve this problem at the speaker connection on the amp, where I swap +- on each channel, I then leave my subs 'normal'. It would be much easier to do at the sub, but my OCD brain says to fix the problem where it occurs (but I'm not building cables out of phase!). ... and thanks! |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 17:37:12 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? Probably, I solve this problem at the speaker connection on the amp, where I swap +- on each channel, I then leave my subs 'normal'. It would be much easier to do at the sub, but my OCD brain says to fix the problem where it occurs (but I'm not building cables out of phase!). ... and thanks! well, the easy part is the minidsp balanced has the screw type connections. So, all I had to do was reverse the red and white. Was super quick. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 0:24:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 9:45:15 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 26, 2020 12:08:56 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. Well, that just confused me more. 😂😂😂 I have reversed the polarity feeding my minidsp given all the rest of my speakers are powered from XPA amps. If someone can confirm this is incorrect, please let me know. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 15:50:42 GMT -5
I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. Well, that just confused me more. 😂😂😂 I have reversed the polarity feeding my minidsp given all the rest of my speakers are powered from XPA amps. If someone can confirm this is incorrect, please let me know. Yup, I know the feeling. Here's a picture of when using the inverters and Emotiva amp. And this is the thread which is similar to this one where I basically got a handle on what's happening: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56540/inverted-signal-matter-audibly-noticeableBasically you need to trace the XLR and figure out in each component up to the amp which is the hot pin up until the amp. Make sure they are same throughout up till the amp......... but that leaves the question about absolute polarity. That is, whether first note is positive or negative. I mean all speakers can be in phase with one another but my question was does it matter if all speakers are firing inward rather than outward? Some seemingly think it doesn't matter....... I do.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 10:49:13 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, there’s nothing left in question, the point of this thread is to clear up all the polarity / phase issues with Emotiva products. You may not have read the opening two posts, but the following post states it all succinctly. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/999681/thread |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 11:03:37 GMT -5
I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. Well, that just confused me more. 😂😂😂 I have reversed the polarity feeding my minidsp given all the rest of my speakers are powered from XPA amps. If someone can confirm this is incorrect, please let me know. Not having a mini-DSP I can’t speak directly to that, but if your subs phase is now reversed from what it was before and you haven’t changed anything else then you fixed it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 11:05:53 GMT -5
This is a very insightful thread. Thank you Bruce. It does seem that my sub amp is being fed out of phase after reading this. Would you agree? My entire system is Emotiva. All amps are fed via Emotiva XLR cables. My center sub is XLR to a MiniDSP balanced wired per industry standard. So, I assume I've been running my subs out of phase all year long. Thoughts? I believe the Emotiva amp signal is inverted, flipped, reversed, whatever internally. So, according to Emotiva the output should be in phase. Of course, there are three different specifications for XLR which result in two different polarities input wise. I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, there’s nothing left in question, the point of this thread is to clear up all the polarity / phase issues with Emotiva products. You may not have read the opening two posts, but the following post states it all succinctly. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/999681/threadConsidering the state of my laziness at the moment lemme point to this article: hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/the-fully-balanced-power-amplifier-advantages-and-design-challenges/In short, we're both suggesting the same thing. When considering that the signal is inverted internally within an Emotiva amp reversing the XLR pins compensates for the inversion. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 11:13:46 GMT -5
My point is that there’s no question left, I don’t need to read another article (especially if you’re not willing to read my opening post). Your adapter suggestion however was on point, though I prefer reversing speaker connections. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 11:26:35 GMT -5
My point is that there’s no question left, I don’t need to read another article (especially if you’re not willing to read my opening post). Your adapter suggestion however was on point, though I prefer reversing speaker connections. Are you assuming I did not read this entire thread? I've read your post then and before my last. Sorry, I didn't find the three to five line explanation comprehensive enough. If the pins on the inputs of the Emotiva are indeed reversed to compensate for internal inversion then using the adapters will actually reverse the polarity in the final output. I realize absolute polarity isn't the gist of this thread though. That's why I pointed to the other thread where that was my actual concern. The reversed pins on an Emotiva amp are "inverters" already built into the amps to correct for the change of the internal signal. Enjoy! |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 12:01:13 GMT -5
My point is that there’s no question left, I don’t need to read another article (especially if you’re not willing to read my opening post). Your adapter suggestion however was on point, though I prefer reversing speaker connections. Where I'm confused is @shimei stating that the Emotiva amps invert the signal internally. I'll admit I haven't read through every post because I thought I was clear until he said this. If the input pins 2 & 3 are swapped on an Emotiva amp, then the speakers would be 180 out of phase with another amp that doesn't do this. However, if after the signal is brought into the amp, Emotiva inverts this signal prior to heading out through the speaker wires, then the speakers aren't actually out of phase. I likely am just hung up on the word choice here and will assume that any speakers powered by Emotiva amps will be out of phase with the rest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 12:31:38 GMT -5
My point is that there’s no question left, I don’t need to read another article (especially if you’re not willing to read my opening post). Your adapter suggestion however was on point, though I prefer reversing speaker connections. Where I'm confused is @shimei stating that the Emotiva amps invert the signal internally. I'll admit I haven't read through every post because I thought I was clear until he said this. If the input pins 2 & 3 are swapped on an Emotiva amp, then the speakers would be 180 out of phase with another amp that doesn't do this. However, if after the signal is brought into the amp, Emotiva inverts this signal prior to heading out through the speaker wires, then the speakers aren't actually out of phase. I likely am just hung up on the word choice here and will assume that any speakers powered by Emotiva amps will be out of phase with the rest. They should be in phase with other amps...... that is if each of the amps use the same source. The reversed pins at the Emotiva XLR input are an inverter to compensate for the internal inversion. So, the final output should be aligned with the source's output. This article is much more comprehensive: redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1381179&u=https%3A//hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/the-fully-balanced-power-amplifier-advantages-and-design-challenges/ |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 27, 2020 12:37:23 GMT -5
OK... once and for all...
Forget all the nit-picking about where which amps invert the signal. (And whether you consider swapping connector pins as "internally" or not...)
Most amplifiers invert the signal many times as it passes down the signal path.
ALL that counts is whether, when you get to the end, the signal ends up inverted or not.
(If the total number of times the signal is inverted is even then the net result is that is not inverted.)
The BALANCED INPUTS on our XPA Amps INVERT the absolute phase. The UNBALANCE INPUTS on the XPA Amps DO NOT INVERT the absolute phase.
If you wish to, you can invert the signal one more time, which will cancel out the inversion, by EITHER: - using an XLR-to-XLR adapter that swaps the two signal pins on each input...
- swapping the red and black leads on each speaker
(you probably can't do it this way if you have speakers with a powered subwoofer built in).
1)
If you're going to use the balanced inputs on one of our XPA amps with amps of some other brand which do not invert the absolute phase... Then you should flip the phase on the XPA amps so they all agree.
(This will make the absolute phase on the XPA amps not inverted - and the relative phase on all of them agree.) (This is also true if you're going to mix XPA amps with BasX amps - but only if you use the balanced inputs on the XPA amps.)
2) Some people can apparently just plain hear the difference between inverted and not-inverted absolute phase - at least with some recordings. Those people should probably also swap the phase on our XPA amps - even if you're using all XPA amps.
Note that, with many modern multi-track recordings, the various tracks they used may or may not preserve absolute phase.
And, if they didn't bother to keep track, before they mixed it all together, then the absolute phase is a lost cause. (However, if you can't hear the difference on a specific recording, then I guess it won't matter if you swap it either.  ) My point is that there’s no question left, I don’t need to read another article (especially if you’re not willing to read my opening post). Your adapter suggestion however was on point, though I prefer reversing speaker connections. Where I'm confused is @shimei stating that the Emotiva amps invert the signal internally. I'll admit I haven't read through every post because I thought I was clear until he said this. If the input pins 2 & 3 are swapped on an Emotiva amp, then the speakers would be 180 out of phase with another amp that doesn't do this. However, if after the signal is brought into the amp, Emotiva inverts this signal prior to heading out through the speaker wires, then the speakers aren't actually out of phase. I likely am just hung up on the word choice here and will assume that any speakers powered by Emotiva amps will be out of phase with the rest. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 13:46:34 GMT -5
OK... once and for all...
Forget all the nit-picking about where which amps invert the signal. (And whether you consider swapping connector pins as "internally" or not...)
Most amplifiers invert the signal many times as it passes down the signal path.
ALL that counts is whether, when you get to the end, the signal ends up inverted or not.
(If the total number of times the signal is inverted is even then the net result is that is not inverted.)
The BALANCED INPUTS on our XPA Amps INVERT the absolute phase. The UNBALANCE INPUTS on the XPA Amps DO NOT INVERT the absolute phase.
If you wish to, you can invert the signal one more time, which will cancel out the inversion, by EITHER: - using an XLR-to-XLR adapter that swaps the two signal pins on each input...
- swapping the red and black leads on each speaker
(you probably can't do it this way if you have speakers with a powered subwoofer built in).
1)
If you're going to use the balanced inputs on one of our XPA amps with amps of some other brand which do not invert the absolute phase... Then you should flip the phase on the XPA amps so they all agree.
(This will make the absolute phase on the XPA amps not inverted - and the relative phase on all of them agree.) (This is also true if you're going to mix XPA amps with BasX amps - but only if you use the balanced inputs on the XPA amps.)
2) Some people can apparently just plain hear the difference between inverted and not-inverted absolute phase - at least with some recordings. Those people should probably also swap the phase on our XPA amps - even if you're using all XPA amps.
Note that, with many modern multi-track recordings, the various tracks they used may or may not preserve absolute phase.
And, if they didn't bother to keep track, before they mixed it all together, then the absolute phase is a lost cause. (However, if you can't hear the difference on a specific recording, then I guess it won't matter if you swap it either. ) Where I'm confused is @shimei stating that the Emotiva amps invert the signal internally. I'll admit I haven't read through every post because I thought I was clear until he said this. If the input pins 2 & 3 are swapped on an Emotiva amp, then the speakers would be 180 out of phase with another amp that doesn't do this. However, if after the signal is brought into the amp, Emotiva inverts this signal prior to heading out through the speaker wires, then the speakers aren't actually out of phase. I likely am just hung up on the word choice here and will assume that any speakers powered by Emotiva amps will be out of phase with the rest. thanks Keith. My issue was simply that I didn't realize my miniDSP has been out of phase since January and I just needed clarification. I swapped the wires feeding my miniDSP Saturday morning and it does seem to behave better now. I did not realize until Saturday that the miniDSP balanced output was only 2Vs which I assume is why I'm having a bit of spl drop compared to my mains. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 13:51:04 GMT -5
OK... once and for all... ... again 🙂 |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 13:56:24 GMT -5
Where I'm confused is @shimei stating that the Emotiva amps invert the signal internally. I'll admit I haven't read through every post because I thought I was clear until he said this. If the input pins 2 & 3 are swapped on an Emotiva amp, then the speakers would be 180 out of phase with another amp that doesn't do this. However, if after the signal is brought into the amp, Emotiva inverts this signal prior to heading out through the speaker wires, then the speakers aren't actually out of phase. I likely am just hung up on the word choice here and will assume that any speakers powered by Emotiva amps will be out of phase with the rest. that is if each of the amps use the same source. The reversed pins at the Emotiva XLR input are an inverter to compensate for the internal inversion. So, the final output should be aligned with the source's output. This article is much more comprehensive: redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1381179&u=https%3A//hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/the-fully-balanced-power-amplifier-advantages-and-design-challenges/As has been stated many places, that is incorrect (or you’re stating it incorrectly), the reason I took exception to your post is that you took a subject that had been ‘put to bed’, and raised questions and confusion. I’m going back to the ‘concise’ post I wrote and add more information so there won’t be more confusion. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 14:11:29 GMT -5
I’m reposting my ‘bottom line’ post with some clarifications, hopefully it will be understood by all, if not, please let me know what doesn’t make sense.
*** Updated 7/30/2019 ***
*** Updated 7/27/2020 ***
—Confirmed by Emotiva, ALL Emotiva amps of any generation have their XLR inputs wired with Pin #3+ (the signal’s phase will be reversed by the amp)
—Confirmed by Emotiva, ALL Emotiva preamps and processors have their XLR outputs wired Pin #2+ (the signal’s phase will not be altered)
—Confirmed by Emotiva, ALL Emotiva preamps and processor have their XLR inputs wired Pin #2+ (the signal’s phase will not be altered)
Note: Pin #2+ or Hot is the current standard, Pin #3+ or Hot is reversed
—Confirmed by Emotiva, ALL Emotiva products are non-inverting through the RCA connections (the signal’s phase will not be altered)
I believe this now answers the phase questions regarding the balanced/XLR inputs and outputs on all Emotiva devices (and now RCA).
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