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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 10:46:48 GMT -5
Oddly, I reversed the pins on my XLR cable feeding the MiniDSP due to all the other speakers being behind XPA amps. What I found looking at an impulse response was that my subs are now out of phase with my mains. I'm quite confused by this, but I'll trust the measurement over everything else. Correct me if wrong but your measurement shows that Emotiva did indeed compensate for the internal inversion by reversing the input pins to maintain absolute polarity? |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 31, 2020 10:48:37 GMT -5
I haven't but I did just read it. Basically, measure SPL at the crossover flipping the polarity to see which one is louder? I can easily test this hitting the invert button in MiniDSP. I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do much to help in the lower spectrum. I'm just trying to get everything as "right" as possible before running the million Dirac measurements again. Right, though most of the time we’re using pink noise and this requires a sine wave (so be careful with levels), and even though these wavelengths are long, measuring at the MLP. Getting everything dialed in before more measurements is a good plan. I'll already have REW running, so it won't be a problem generating the sine wave. Thank you sir. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 31, 2020 10:50:47 GMT -5
Oddly, I reversed the pins on my XLR cable feeding the MiniDSP due to all the other speakers being behind XPA amps. What I found looking at an impulse response was that my subs are now out of phase with my mains. I'm quite confused by this, but I'll trust the measurement over everything else. Correct me if wrong but your measurement shows that Emotiva did indeed compensate for the internal inversion by reversing the input pins to maintain absolute polarity? I knew you were going to chime in. hahaha. Well, we are assuming that I am not wrong. There's always the possibility that I wired my subs backwards years ago when I built them. There is plenty of room for me to have made a mistake. But, according to an impulse response in REW, and at 0ms, my subs go down as my mains go up. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 31, 2020 10:57:17 GMT -5
Correct me if wrong but your measurement shows that Emotiva did indeed compensate for the internal inversion by reversing the input pins to maintain absolute polarity? I knew you were going to chime in. hahaha. Well, we are assuming that I am not wrong. There's always the possibility that I wired my subs backwards years ago when I built them. There is plenty of room for me to have made a mistake. But, according to an impulse response in REW, and at 0ms, my subs go down as my mains go up. Using the crossover measurement method, my SVS subs measure highest when set at 0 (‘normal’ phase), and the speakers connected to Emotiva amps are reversed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 11:07:44 GMT -5
I knew you were going to chime in. hahaha. Well, we are assuming that I am not wrong. There's always the possibility that I wired my subs backwards years ago when I built them. There is plenty of room for me to have made a mistake. But, according to an impulse response in REW, and at 0ms, my subs go down as my mains go up. Using the crossover measurement method, my SVS subs measure highest when set at 0 (‘normal’ phase), and the speakers connected to Emotiva amps are reversed. Incredibly, I wasn't able to detect by hearing any noticeable difference between 0 or 180 phase when adjusting my subs in relation to my mains [full range]. I did not have any measureing instruments at the time. I would of thought before hand that adding 4-10s to 4 12" subs in the mains would be noticeable if the subs were 180 out. However, at that point I got fed up with all the second guessing and moved away from Emotiva. Perhaps, I should of experimented with the 0-180 dovetailing of the 4-10 amplifiers. And of course all this was "in room" so there's that great probability that the room itself was leading to all kinds of phase issues. Though, I did seemingly experience the placebo effect when using phase inverters on the XLR. I could detect a difference but in the end I could not determine whether the difference was for the better. Regardless, something was always off. I acknowledge my own testing at that time was inconclusive. I do however, now have a SPL meter along with a MiniDSP that'll introduce Dirac Live 3 into the system sometime late next week. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 31, 2020 11:15:08 GMT -5
Using the crossover measurement method, my SVS subs measure highest when set at 0 (‘normal’ phase), and the speakers connected to Emotiva amps are reversed. Incredibly, I wasn't able to detect by hearing any noticeable difference between 0 or 180 phase when adjusting my subs in relation to my mains [full range]. I did not have any measureing instruments at the time. I would of thought before hand that adding 4-10s to 4 12" subs in the mains would be noticeable if the subs were 180 out. However, at that point I got fed up with all the second guessing and moved away from Emotiva. Perhaps, I should of experimented with the 0-180 dovetailing of the 4-10 amplifiers. And of course all this was "in room" so there's that great probability that the room itself was leading to all kinds of phase issues. Though, I did seemingly experience the placebo effect when using phase inverters on the XLR. I could detect a difference but in the end I could not determine whether the difference was for the better. Regardless, something was always off. I acknowledge my own testing at that time was inconclusive. I do however, now have a SPL meter along with a MiniDSP that'll introduce Dirac Live 3 into the system sometime late next week. Your phase could have been something like 90 degrees off which would result in you not really hearing a difference when switching. You probably want to look at an impulse response or an alignment tool in REW to see what the phase relationship actually is, and then makes those changes in miniDSP as needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 11:20:21 GMT -5
Incredibly, I wasn't able to detect by hearing any noticeable difference between 0 or 180 phase when adjusting my subs in relation to my mains [full range]. I did not have any measureing instruments at the time. I would of thought before hand that adding 4-10s to 4 12" subs in the mains would be noticeable if the subs were 180 out. However, at that point I got fed up with all the second guessing and moved away from Emotiva. Perhaps, I should of experimented with the 0-180 dovetailing of the 4-10 amplifiers. And of course all this was "in room" so there's that great probability that the room itself was leading to all kinds of phase issues. Though, I did seemingly experience the placebo effect when using phase inverters on the XLR. I could detect a difference but in the end I could not determine whether the difference was for the better. Regardless, something was always off. I acknowledge my own testing at that time was inconclusive. I do however, now have a SPL meter along with a MiniDSP that'll introduce Dirac Live 3 into the system sometime late next week. Your phase could have been something like 90 degrees off which would result in you not really hearing a difference when switching. You probably want to look at an impulse response or an alignment tool in REW to see what the phase relationship actually is, and then makes those changes in miniDSP as needed. I agree in that that was more than likely what was happening. I could have, if that was the issue, probably of tuned that out by dovetailing the subs which are able to adjust from 0 to 180 degrees .... everything in between. The difference at the time just wasn't noticeable enough for certainty. Since then, the biggest remedy which solved the clarity of vocal issues I was having during movies.... got tired of my wife asking, what did they say? The crossover point of my center was too high. I was using the Onkyo room correction which recommended 180 hz crossover. Bringing it down to 70hz seems to be the sweet spot. Below 70hz and I can audibly detect "boominess" in vocals. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 31, 2020 11:22:13 GMT -5
Using the crossover measurement method, my SVS subs measure highest when set at 0 (‘normal’ phase), and the speakers connected to Emotiva amps are reversed. Incredibly, I wasn't able to detect by hearing any noticeable difference between 0 or 180 phase when adjusting my subs in relation to my mains [full range]. I did not have any measureing instruments at the time. I would of thought before hand that adding 4-10s to 4 12" subs in the mains would be noticeable if the subs were 180 out. However, at that point I got fed up with all the second guessing and moved away from Emotiva. Perhaps, I should of experimented with the 0-180 dovetailing of the 4-10 amplifiers. And of course all this was "in room" so there's that great probability that the room itself was leading to all kinds of phase issues. Though, I did seemingly experience the placebo effect when using phase inverters on the XLR. I could detect a difference but in the end I could not determine whether the difference was for the better. Regardless, something was always off. I acknowledge my own testing at that time was inconclusive. I do however, now have a SPL meter along with a MiniDSP that'll introduce Dirac Live 3 into the system sometime late next week. You would think this is something you could easily hear, but I think we go numb to the pressure after just a few measurements with low frequencies. While they haven’t been as useful as I’d hoped, my SVS subs have a remote app where (among other things) I can switch polarity (180 phase swap) or move continuously from 0 to 180 (that part is useful for setup). This does make this whole process easier, but as the article points out, we’re really just putting a stake in the ground and saying we’re in-phase at this point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 11:27:34 GMT -5
Incredibly, I wasn't able to detect by hearing any noticeable difference between 0 or 180 phase when adjusting my subs in relation to my mains [full range]. I did not have any measureing instruments at the time. I would of thought before hand that adding 4-10s to 4 12" subs in the mains would be noticeable if the subs were 180 out. However, at that point I got fed up with all the second guessing and moved away from Emotiva. Perhaps, I should of experimented with the 0-180 dovetailing of the 4-10 amplifiers. And of course all this was "in room" so there's that great probability that the room itself was leading to all kinds of phase issues. Though, I did seemingly experience the placebo effect when using phase inverters on the XLR. I could detect a difference but in the end I could not determine whether the difference was for the better. Regardless, something was always off. I acknowledge my own testing at that time was inconclusive. I do however, now have a SPL meter along with a MiniDSP that'll introduce Dirac Live 3 into the system sometime late next week. You would think this is something you could easily hear, but I think we go numb to the pressure after just a few measurements with low frequencies. While they haven’t been as useful as I’d hoped, my SVS subs have a remote app where (among other things) I can switch polarity (180 phase swap) or move continuously from 0 to 180 (that part is useful for setup). This does make this whole process easier, but as the article points out, we’re really just putting a stake in the ground and saying we’re in-phase at this point. Agreed. This was the worst setup issue I've ever had. Working as a car audio installer for a decade I probably installed close to 1000 systems in automobiles, custom subwoofer boxes etc. This is only my second home audio system. In cars I kinda boasted about how sensitive my ears were to phase issues when wiring up a system. I was in uncharted waters in the home audio arena given the large space and the ability to actually move speakers ideally to new locations. In car audio I relied heavily on DSPs [or different length wave guides] to delay and phase align to the driver's side of the car...... the ideal listening location. In home audio I thought wow, I now have the option to actually move the speakers to the ideal location and I'll no longer need a dsp. I was wrong.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 11:44:39 GMT -5
I haven't but I did just read it. Basically, measure SPL at the crossover flipping the polarity to see which one is louder? I can easily test this hitting the invert button in MiniDSP. I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do much to help in the lower spectrum. I'm just trying to get everything as "right" as possible before running the million Dirac measurements again. "I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range." Our mission is to distract you from getting things done and keeping us company. In all seriousness, looking forward to hearing about your progress. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 31, 2020 12:17:04 GMT -5
I haven't but I did just read it. Basically, measure SPL at the crossover flipping the polarity to see which one is louder? I can easily test this hitting the invert button in MiniDSP. I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do much to help in the lower spectrum. I'm just trying to get everything as "right" as possible before running the million Dirac measurements again. "I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range." Our mission is to distract you from getting things done and keeping us company. In all seriousness, looking forward to hearing about your progress. Haha..i say this often. I do get distracted and then end up running out of time to do anything. With any luck, I'll be home and tinkering within the hour. I gotta fix my polarity issue first, and ideally my SPL issue, and then I can start figuring out how to deal with some of these peaks and dips. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 12:19:34 GMT -5
"I'm planning to do a lot of testing today with some extra panels in attempt to fix some dips I have in the dialogue range." Our mission is to distract you from getting things done and keeping us company. In all seriousness, looking forward to hearing about your progress. Haha..i say this often. I do get distracted and then end up running out of time to do anything. With any luck, I'll be home and tinkering within the hour. I gotta fix my polarity issue first, and ideally my SPL issue, and then I can start figuring out how to deal with some of these peaks and dips. I have zero experience with Dirac Live but will be adding it to my system come late next week. I'd appreciate any tips, tricks, suggestions in your tuning. Perhaps another thread? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 19, 2020 21:12:02 GMT -5
Keith posted updated information today, I have linked it in the first post of this thread, updated my summary post on the first page, and am copying the pertinent info here.
The BALANCED INPUTS on our XPA and XPA‐DR amplifiers INVERT ABSOLUTE PHASE.
(They are wired as: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin3=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin2=COLD/NEGATIVE.)
The BALANCED INPUTS on our PA‐1 Class D monoblocks DO NOT INVERT ABSOLUTE PHASE.
(They are wired as: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin2=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin3=COLD/NEGATIVE.)
The BALANCED OUTPUTS on our Preamps and Processors DO NOT INVERT ABSOLUTE PHASE.
(They are wired as: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin2=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin3=COLD/NEGATIVE.)
The BALANCED INPUTS on our Preamps and Processors DO NOT INVERT ABSOLUTE PHASE.
(They are wired as: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin2=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin3=COLD/NEGATIVE.)
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Post by doc1963 on Aug 20, 2020 9:12:57 GMT -5
I'm just happy to see the subject officially put to rest...  EDIT: And honestly, I think Keith's post should be pinned at the top of every pertinent "Topic" in the forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 22:52:47 GMT -5
6 minutes 47 seconds into the video, pertinent?
The below video addressed an inverted signal from a preamp. Then describes the inversion that occurs w/in an amplifier. I'm still believing that Emotiva inverted the input signal to compensate for internal inversion.
If memory serves me correct I recall a video where Lonnie appeared, I recall as a guest on Hair Nick's video stated contrary information to what Keith is stating.
However, regardless of the reason by Emotiva I'm glad to be done w/ all the second guessing:
"The Parasound Halo voltage gain into 8 ohms measured 29.2dB from the balanced inputs, 29.4dB from the unbalanced inputs. In bridged-mono mode, the gain was 34.9dB into 8 ohms. The amplifier preserved absolute polarity (ie, was noninverting) with both balanced and unbalanced input signals and with the right channel used as the input in bridged-mono mode, with the outputs taken from the two positive loudspeaker terminals as described in the manual. The balanced input impedance was high at 90k ohms at 20Hz and 1kHz, dropping to a still-high 84k ohms at 20kHz. The unbalanced input impedance was 46k ohms at low and middle frequencies, 37k ohms at the top of the audioband."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 12:18:18 GMT -5
And here's Lonnie speaking about inversion. Change my mind because I don't agree with this. We don't listen to sine waves but rather cycles in music. For example, regardless if the final output of all amplifiers being the same if the first note every time it repeats begins with an inward pull rather than push I don't believe there's no difference in overall fidelity. If you personally can't hear the difference then great you have equipment you can live with.
My problem was running active subs w/ their own amplifiers mixed with an Emotive amp. If the subs maintain absolute polarity regarding the signal from input to output and the Emotiva amp inverts the signal then the system is not in absolute phase. However, if the Emotiva amp "re"inverts the switched pins on the input back internally then the outputs are in phase. That brings me to a question as to whether Emotiva two stage amplifiers invert once more? I don't know and I'm asking. I find it hard to believe that an amp may be designed so that each stage inverts 180 degrees from the previous stage w/out compensating internally again. If this were to occur the system may be aligned by either switching the pins before the first stage inversion. And if a second stage inverts again then the system would become out of phase in the second stage. Such a design when cranking the system w/ mixed amplification for example would result in the bass disappearing as the A/B stage goes into H? I'm not saying that does occur but I'm asking?
This was exactly the thing I was struggling with. Something was always off w/ the Gen 3 XPA or DR series amp [two I purchased from Emotiva]. I used inverters etc but the fidelity didn't remain consistent throughout various levels of output. The issues I heard were definitely resolved when replacing the Emotiva w/ Parasound.
I'm giving Emotiva the benefit of the doubt as to why they inverted the input pins in that it compensates for internal inversion. If this occurs then the reason why is very pertinent on whether inverters should be used in the system. The difference between retaining absolute phase output wise may not be so apparent if using dedicated active subwoofers while the rest of the system powered by Emotiva are crossed over at other frequencies. If however, the speakers overlap, in other words mains are full range and added active subwoofers are introduced into the system then the issue becomes more apparent. I'd also like to know whether when switching to a different stage internally by the amp if another inversion occurs? And, if so, whether that inversion was compensated for internally?
In the long run it doesn't matter to me now but for the sake of curiosity I wouldn't mind knowing.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 8, 2020 12:29:42 GMT -5
And here's Lonnie speaking about inversion. Change my mind because I don't agree with this. We don't listen to sine waves but rather cycles in music. For example, regardless if the final output of all amplifiers being the same if the first note every time it repeats begins with an inward pull rather than push I don't believe there's no difference in overall fidelity. If you personally can't hear the difference then great you have equipment you can live with. My problem was running active subs w/ their own amplifiers mixed with an Emotive amp. If the subs maintain absolute polarity regarding the signal from input to output and the Emotiva amp inverts the signal then the system is not in absolute phase. However, if the Emotiva amp "re"inverts the switched pins on the input back internally then the outputs are in phase. That brings me to a question as to whether Emotiva two stage amplifiers invert once more? I don't know and I'm asking. I find it hard to believe that an amp may be designed so that each stage inverts 180 degrees from the previous stage w/out compensating internally again. If this were to occur the system may be aligned by either switching the pins before the first stage inversion. And if a second stage inverts again then the system would become out of phase in the second stage. Such a design when cranking the system w/ mixed amplification for example would result in the bass disappearing as the A/B stage goes into H? I'm not saying that does occur but I'm asking? This was exactly the thing I was struggling with. Something was always off w/ the Gen 3 XPA or DR series amp [two I purchased from Emotiva]. I used inverters etc but the fidelity didn't remain consistent throughout various levels of output. The issues I heard were definitely resolved when replacing the Emotiva w/ Parasound. I'm giving Emotiva the benefit of the doubt as to why they inverted the input pins in that it compensates for internal inversion. If this occurs then the reason why is very pertinent on whether inverters should be used in the system. The difference between retaining absolute phase output wise may not be so apparent if using dedicated active subwoofers while the rest of the system powered by Emotiva are crossed over at other frequencies. If however, the speakers overlap, in other words mains are full range and added active subwoofers are introduced into the system then the issue becomes more apparent. I'd also like to know whether when switching to a different stage internally by the amp if another inversion occurs? And, if so, whether that inversion was compensated for internally? In the long run it doesn't matter to me now but for the sake of curiosity I wouldn't mind knowing. Many are annoyed by the continued discussion around this, but I've followed all the advice to only see, via REW, that my subs were 180 out of phase with the rest of my system. Dirac corrects this, so I've left it alone, but there's definitely more to this than the inputs of the XPA amps being reversed. I swapped polarity to my minidsp to be the same, but REW shows this being incorrect meaning the output of the XPA is not in fact reversed. |
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geg
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Post by geg on Oct 19, 2020 5:43:12 GMT -5
Hello,
What about the UPA-1 monoblock amp? XLR inputs wired with Pin #3+ or Pin #2?
I am getting lost can someone enlighten me? Here is my setup:
7.2
two UPA-1 connected in XLR from RMC-1L for front left and right
one XPA-5 Gen2 connected in XLR from RMC-1L for Center, SR, SL, BR, BL
two sub RythmikAudio connected in XLR from RMC-1L
Thanks in advance
Gerard
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 19, 2020 8:44:12 GMT -5
Hello, What about the UPA-1 monoblock amp? XLR inputs wired with Pin #3+ or Pin #2? I am getting lost can someone enlighten me? Here is my setup: 7.2 two UPA-1 connected in XLR from RMC-1L for front left and right one XPA-5 Gen2 connected in XLR from RMC-1L for Center, SR, SL, BR, BL two sub RythmikAudio connected in XLR from RMC-1L Thanks in advance Gerard Just when you think you’ve got the bases covered ⚾️ (Go Blue!) At one point Emotiva stated that ALL amps with XLR inputs reversed the phase of the signal (Pin #3+ / Hot). Then they announced that the PA-1’s did NOT reverse phase and were an exception. I would expect the early UPA amps with XLR inputs, as well as the RPA series would fall under the original statement (Pin 3+ / reverse phase), but we should have KeithL make a definitive clarification for these amps. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 8, 2020 1:28:37 GMT -5
I just scanned thur this thread but did NOT waste a second of any videos.
The reason this is another red herring?
There are NO STANDARDS, as near as I can tell, for original recocrdings. If a track is generated at a studio in chicago than shipped for inclusion in a track with primary recording in Hollywood?
Who knows what the phase situation actually is?
I've tested many songs and albums with ABSOLUTE phase reversal in the preamp....a convenietnt switch for that purpose and heard only a Very Few instantances of any change. It was not very repeatable, either, when going
over some of this material another day, my conslusions did not 100% agree. I can only assusme my state of mine, any potentilal fatigue and other conitions I may not be aware of, playeed a part in my results.
And please don't forget crossover phase shift. Applied asymetrically between stereo channels, you may get some phase difference between speaker near the speaker crossover. 1st order is 90 degrees. 2nd order is 180 and so on.
By asymetrically, I mean 2 things. First? Crossover matching is feeble at best. Crossover caps are typically 20% tolerance. Even costly caps are maybe 10% and I've seen 5%. YOU don't have 5 unless YOU put 'em in. And since the
stereo channels are typically NOT identical (that would be MONO) you have that as a source of phase shift.
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